Becoming an Engineer: Considerations and Personal Experiences

[RufusDawes]

I'm saving this year to study electrical and electronics engineering next year.

What are the consequences going to be like since I will enter my studies late (25 years old) and don't have any engineering experience to date.

 

[Serbian.matematika]

Electrical Engineering has more maths than any other eng program and it is the most difficult program.

The easiest to handle would be civil, IMO,

Do NOT worry about your age, you are very young!
Good Luck!

 

[Hydrargyrum]

The easiest to handle would be civil, IMO,

Any why is that?

 

[Edwardo_Elric]

i am poor in programmng but if it takes practice... ill do anything i can
How much computer science does EE involve?
in my curriculum i had to take 3 COmputer classes

 

[RufusDawes]

Electrical Engineering has more maths than any other eng program and it is the most difficult program.

The easiest to handle would be civil, IMO,

Do NOT worry about your age, you are very young!
Good Luck!

I am so incapable of making a decision I have put it off for another year, using the excuse that I need to save more money. I was all due to enrol too.

 

[Serbian.matematika]

come on bros if I (girl) can do it you can do it too, just cling to your books.

*****if you fail some courses soooooooo what, just keep going, don't give up sooooo eassily, promise:-)
good luck

 

[thinkies]

In particular, Industrial engineering and Aeronautical engineering are the hardest of all.

That's very sad to hear...I was expecting those fields to be relatively easy or even "smooth"(especially in understanding the concepts and all the stuff) among all other engineering fields.

I am interested in astronautical engineering, however it's a disappointment that I also share a lot of passion for astronomy(theoretical aspect). Distorted between those 2 fields :S. Still, I have a lot of time to think about all those stuff(*I'm in high school*).

 

[budala]

the most difficult is ;
a) electrical
b) aerospace (aeronautical)
c) mechanical
d) chemical
e) Industrial
f) civil

 

[thinkies]

the most difficult is ;
a) electrical
b) aerospace (aeronautical)
c) mechanical
d) chemical
e) Industrial
f) civil

So...is astronautical engineering easy? In your list, you simply mention aeronautical engineering (b)...

 

[budala]

aero and astro are not the same programs.

I did NOT say anything about astronautical engineering being easy.

 

[thinkies]

aero and astro are not the same programs.

I did NOT say anything about astronautical engineering being easy.

It seems like I offended you. This was not what I meant. In fact, I am asking if astronautical engineering is hard...Well, is it hard? I'm not telling that you are wrong and you should consider astronautical engineering in your list. I am aware that aeronautical is different from astronautical...

 

[budala]

oh no, not at all, you did not offend me.
you are right astronautical should be considered,
but I did not remember that program since not to many ppl are studying it and just some universities are offering it.
are there jobs for astro graduates?

 

[Edwardo_Elric]

can someone also rank the most mathematical...

 

[thinkies]

are there jobs for astro graduates?

Yep.They can work at Nasa, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc. Astronautical engineers have good (and high) salaries. And most of these engineers don't really face unemployment problems...

 

[thinkies]

but I did not remember that program since not to many ppl are studying it and just some universities are offering it.

Well, before astronautical engineering wasn't that famous. Today, it's really a popular subject and many many universities are offering it. There are many interesting projects in astronautical engineering, it's a fascinating subject .

 

[Astronuc]

oh no, not at all, you did not offend me.
you are right astronautical should be considered,
but I did not remember that program since not to many ppl are studying it and just some universities are offering it.
are there jobs for astro graduates?

Coincidentally,

Aerospace, defense industries brace for worker shortage. (at least in the US)

The AP (3/5) reports, "The aerospace and defense sector is bracing for a potential brain drain over the next decade as a generation of Cold War scientists and engineers hits retirement age and not enough qualified young Americans seek to take their place." The industry's problem is that "almost 60 percent of U.S. aerospace workers" are age 45 or older. This could threaten national security "and even close the door on commercial products that start out as military technology, industry officials said." The sector is also facing increased competition from technology companies. Kimberly Ware, associate director for employer relations at Virginia Tech, said that defense companies are "vying with General Electric Co., Westinghouse Electric Corp. and the big auto makers for electrical and mechanical engineering graduates." There is also another challenge for the industry. "Unlike technology companies, defense companies generally have to hire American citizens since they need employees who can obtain security clearance. This eliminates foreign graduates of American universities and foreign employees in the U.S. on H-1B visas."

RedOrbit (3/5) points out that in "an effort to solve the problem, defense companies are initiating programs to reach out to American students as early as possible." For example, Lockheed Martin employees are tutoring elementary school "students in math and science" and "recruiting high school students to shadow Lockheed workers on the job." And at Northrop Grumman, "a program has been established called Weightless Flights of Discovery that allows middle school teachers to experience temporary weightlessness on 'zero-gravity' airplane flights."

 

[Edwardo_Elric]

has anyone barely passed EE labs w/out any partner?

 

[RufusDawes]

Whats electrical/electronics (thats how it is offered till you specialise) like for job prospects ? I am going to do it anyway.. just asking.

 

[thinkies]

Whats electrical/electronics (thats how it is offered till you specialise) like for job prospects ? I am going to do it anyway.. just asking.

I think Electrical/Electronics engineers are doing pretty well. They also have high salaries. I'm sure you can find more information by "googling" .

 

[nebuqalia]

I hope this post is not too harsh, but I just want to give a sincere advice.

In a nutshell: The overall climate for engineering is not good. I do not recommend pursuing engineering.

Unfortunately, engineering is becoming an easily replaceable commodity. A good example is the transfer of manufacturing engineering jobs to cheap countries in the late 1980s. Another wave of job transfer occurred in the 2000s, where computer engineering and electrical engineering jobs were moved to China and India.

One might say, that the jobs being transferred are the low-level "purely mechanical" kind of work. Well, that *was* true. Unfortunately, even "high level" engineering is being shipped overseas. Many new research & development (R&D) centers of large corporations are built in China, India, and the like. For our colleagues in India and China, that's good news.

You could also think of it in another way. In the 1900s, most of the population worked in agriculture and farming. In the 1960s, it shrunk to less than 8%, and ofcourse even less today. Then the same thing happened with manufacturing, with the percentage shrinking much rapidly. Unfortunately, this is happening in engineering too.

Some might say: "but there is a shortage in some engineering fields! there are opportunities then." These are simply short cycles of supply and demand. If the cycle is over, you will very likely face the same problems faced by computer, electrical, & electronic engineers in the 2000s: massive layoffs. What I'm trying to say is there is no job security in the long term. In other words, you can not build a long lasting career there.

There is also the image problem. The public image of engineering is not good. The public does not even know what engineering is. They are typically seen as technicians. Compare this with the public image of doctors, lawyers, business managers, etc. Even in research, engineering is not credited. For example, many of the new breakthroughs in biomedical engineering are credited to doctors. You would typically read "doctors discovered ..." but how many times did you hear the sentence "engineers at XYZ have finally uncovered ABC ..."?!

So what should we do? Be more open minded. Look at other professions which share some common traits with engineering. Fortunately, there are many other professions that make use of some math and the numerical abilities typically associated with engineering. For example, financing, financial management, business management, marketing, etc.

But don't get me wrong. I do believe that engineering is important and significant. I'm an engineer myself. And btw, am not too old to have such a negative perspective; I'm in my mid 20s. But I believe that, as engineers, we should be objective. I know it is very annoying and disturbing to admit the current situation, but this won't change the fact that it is happening; its reality.

For those who are interested in math and science, keep on if you like. However, I strongly do not recommend that you pursue it in a *professional* career. Keep it as an exciting cool hobby. Read a couple of books every now and then. Be a do-it-yourself (DIY) kind of person. The DIY magazines, the web, and many other places are full of amazing projects and excellent practical tutorials that would easily fill your engineering appetite.

Plus, you will experience the extra fulfillment of working on engineering projects as a hobby. However, when you turn your hobby into a dedication, a job, or a profession, then very often you would get bored and eventually lose your hobby. This is because you'll have peer pressure, boss pressure, deadlines, etc. All these things take out the fun from doing your hobby. We love to do our hobbies because its us who decide when, why, and what to do.

Once again, I really apologize if you were disturbed by this post. I hope I didn't paint a very dark picture, but unfortunately this is the truth.

 

[RufusDawes]

Thats easy thing for you to say because you already are an engineer and have a degree.

Do you realize how difficult it is to break into the finance industry ? unless you want to be a quant (which means you need to know someone) you will start out as a glorified receptionist and your mathematical ability will mean nothing. Finance is largely a relationship based profession. I assume that is not the strength of many engineers.

I've got to question your 'just walk into finance' attitude. Might be possible for you because of the skills you developed as an engineer. I was reading what you were saying and taking it all onboard until I read that advice. It tells me you could just be a bitter person who is a little jealous that people in finance and accounting get paid a little more in the long run, and are attracting more prestige.

Would you be able to explain this to me please ?

I don't know anyone who would go into finance or accounting if they were able to work as an engineer. Engineers get much better starting salaries and frankly more dignified roles. I don't believe engineers aren't respect.

My friends who have graduated from mechanical engineering walk into jobs that either cannot be filled, or walk into a position where there are only 20 applicants. People who graduate from finance go into an interview with 700 people applying for one job, and this is in the small companies. In the large I assume the engineers have high competition too only not as bad. In the large companies you're facing a ratio of thousands for one job.

IT, finance, HR, administration I was under the impression when the economy goes down in corporate these are the first things to go.

Would you be able to explain this to me please ? I am trying not to ask this in an accusantional tone. I think maybe you are making the scenario out to be more severe than it really is.

How much money do you expect to earn ? what kind of position to you expect to keep ?

 

[nebuqalia]

I apologize Rufus, I didn't mean to have the 'just get into finance' attitude. I mentioned finance as an example of other non-engineering professions that could possibly benefit from the skills of engineers.

You made a good comment by saying:

My friends who have graduated from mechanical engineering walk into jobs that either cannot be filled, or walk into a position where there are only 20 applicants.

I believe this is an exception. A major issue in engineering is that, typically, the percentage of fresh graduates (ie. 20-24) is less than 5% of the overall workforce. This tells us that engineering is based on experience more than education. Infact, technicians (ie 2 years college) with a sufficient number of years could occupy engineering positions.

As a side note (since this is not the main point of my post), the skills of engineers do matter when it comes to finance, accounting, management or other related fields. I would summarize my argument in the following short list:

Vikram Pandit - CEO of Citigroup
BS Electrical Engineering, Columbia University (1976)
MS Electrical Engineering, Columbia University (1977)
PhD Finance, Columbia Business School (1986)

John Thain - CEO of Merrill Lynch
BS Electrical Engineering, MIT (1977)
MBA, Harvard Business School (1979)

Ralph Shrader - CEO of Booz Allen Hamilton
BS Electrical Engineering, University of Pennsylvania
MS Electrical Engineering, University of Illinois
PhD Electrical Engineering, University of Illinois

 

[RufusDawes]

Alright so I am 24 and I want to get an electrical engineering degree. Waste of time in your opinion ?

 

[Hydrargyrum]

Are there enough job openings for civil engineers?

 

[Serbian.matematika]

Are there enough job openings for civil engineers?

In Canada , yes.

 

[KennyCivE]

In Canada , yes.

Same for U.S.

One of the unique things about civil engineering is that you can't build a building or a bridge overseas and ship it over in reasonable time and money. It has to be built on site, and you can't design anything without having site visits.

 

[quadraphonics]

One of the unique things about civil engineering is that you can't build a building or a bridge overseas and ship it over in reasonable time and money. It has to be built on site, and you can't design anything without having site visits.

True, but you CAN ship over foreign engineers to do the on-site stuff for reasonable time and money. That this doesn't happen in the United States (and other western countries) has more to do with accreditation requirements and other regulations than any fundamental aspect of the work. But it's very much commonplace for countries in the developing world to ship in foreign (usually Western) engineers when they want to build a skysraper or big bridge or dam.

 

[proton]

how does grad school admissions work for engineering, if you got your B.S. in physics? what is required to get into top schools like caltech, mit, etc? you need good grades, letters of rec, GRE scores? does doing an REU in physics help a lot or is it meaningless?

 

[nebuqalia]

Rufus, I *strongly* do not recommend that you pursue EEng (for the reasons stated in my post). Thinking to change your career *into* IT is one huge mistake. People are getting *out* of it en masse. The exact opposite is true in China and India, where IT and engineering are the #1 career choice.

... but you CAN ship over foreign engineers to do the on-site stuff for reasonable time and money ... it's very much commonplace for countries in the developing world to ship in foreign (usually Western) engineers when they want to build a skycraper or big bridge or dam.

Absolutely true. Civil engineering too can (and in many cases already is) being outsourced. Unfortunately, its becoming difficult for engineers to assume job security. With the increasing usage of information technology, it is becoming much easier to ship jobs anywhere on earth. A friend of mine in an oil & gas construction firm told me that a couple of their projects are now being completely monitored remotely via satellites.

 

[RufusDawes]

Rufus, I *strongly* do not recommend that you pursue EEng (for the reasons stated in my post). Thinking to change your career *into* IT is one huge mistake. People are getting *out* of it en masse. The exact opposite is true in China and India, where IT and engineering are the #1 career choice.


Absolutely true. Civil engineering too can (and in many cases already is) being outsourced. Unfortunately, its becoming difficult for engineers to assume job security. With the increasing usage of information technology, it is becoming much easier to ship jobs anywhere on earth. A friend of mine in an oil & gas construction firm told me that a couple of their projects are now being completely monitored remotely via satellites.

aawwwww wtf am I going to do...

call centres ... lol...not fun either.
gah. atleast I aren't american !

I still think you're largely exaggerating. If all of the jobs do go overseas we won't have much of an economy for much longer and won't be able to afford the outsourcing or won't have sufficient investment to be able to import en masse from India.

By that logic everything will be outsourced, accounting, healthcare the works. There is really nothing you can do in that case apart from.. drive trucks, work in healthcare or serve rich people under the situation you describe.

Where I am there are massive shortages in IT and engineering. Would you able to give me a more indepth description of what is going on please ?

So say the call centre that doesn't get outsourced (as people hate indians) needs someone to make sure the computer networks .. who are they going to hire ? surely it can't hurt to have an EE degree ?

Health care - if no one has any money because all the jobs are going, how are they going to be the healthcare workers wages ?

 

[nebuqalia]

... If all of the jobs do go overseas we won't have much of an economy for much longer and won't be able to afford the outsourcing ...

You are somehow right, this is purely economics. First of all we are not talking about "all the jobs", it's engineering that we are discussing here. Second, this is an economical transformation. A good illustration of this is the same transition that happened from a civilization based on farming and agriculture, to a civilization based on technology. Similarly, we are now experiencing another transition.

By that logic everything will be outsourced .. really nothing you can do in that case apart from ... work in healthcare

Unfortunately, this is happening mainly in engineering because it is sometimes viewed as a commodity. As for healthcare, you bet! Healthcare and healthcare related careers are having exponential job growth. Plus, governments and society gives top priority to healthcare, and they do not tolerate bad quality in health services. In addition, the licensing and education is extremely rigorous to ensure good health services quality. Plus, doctors and other health care professionals must physically interact with the patients.

Where I am there are massive shortages in IT and engineering. Would you able to give me a more indepth description of what is going on please? So say the call centre that doesn't get outsourced (as people hate indians) needs someone to make sure the computer networks .. who are they going to hire? surely it can't hurt to have an EE degree?

I am afraid I am not capable of providing an in-depth description because I don't know where you are :). As for the call centers, you absolutely don't need to spend 4 years of EE for that! A 3 months certificate in network maintenance is very sufficient. Plus, just anyone can take one of those Cisco certificates and be ready.

I hope that was helpful.

 

[RufusDawes]

You are somehow right, this is purely economics. First of all we are not talking about "all the jobs", it's engineering that we are discussing here. Second, this is an economical transformation. A good illustration of this is the same transition that happened from a civilization based on farming and agriculture, to a civilization based on technology. Similarly, we are now experiencing another transition.


Unfortunately, this is happening mainly in engineering because it is sometimes viewed as a commodity. As for healthcare, you bet! Healthcare and healthcare related careers are having exponential job growth. Plus, governments and society gives top priority to healthcare, and they do not tolerate bad quality in health services. In addition, the licensing and education is extremely rigorous to ensure good health services quality. Plus, doctors and other health care professionals must physically interact with the patients.


I am afraid I am not capable of providing an in-depth description because I don't know where you are :). As for the call centers, you absolutely don't need to spend 4 years of EE for that! A 3 months certificate in network maintenance is very sufficient. Plus, just anyone can take one of those Cisco certificates and be ready.

I hope that was helpful.

You don't even need any certification to take care of a call centre, the fact is though that with the number of people that will apply for that job, and the relative scarcity of high paying positions under the circumstances that you are proposing. Under the situation where having a degree in electrical engineering becomes harmful, one would need a good cerfticiation to be able to get almost any job that isn't purely service based.

I am in Australia.

And I have to wonder what do you call an unacceptable level of employment ? no employment, no job ? I think it is easy to get caught up in our own little world and think that the sky is falling. Everything is relative.

Why is it engineering in particular that is outsourced ? why not accounting, administration, how do you outsource desktop support ? network administration ?

I still find it strange you are turning people away from engineering at a time when starting salaries and entry level vacancies are at a pretty big high.

 

[thinkies]

I agree with Rufus. Nebuqalia, you're being really 'negative' concerning jobs related to engineering/physicist. Job prospects for engineers aren't 'that' bad...

 

[nebuqalia]

What I'm trying to say here, Rufus, is that getting an EE degree for positions similar to call centers is an over kill. That is, of course it would 'hurt' to spend 4 years to get an EE, and then compete for positions in a call center.

And I have to wonder what do you call an unacceptable level of employment ? no employment, no job ? I think it is easy to get caught up in our own little world and think that the sky is falling. Everything is relative.

I would like to emphasize that my opinions are not based on some negative perspective. They are based on published data and statistics. I will bring you some of these later on to discuss it further.

Why is it engineering in particular that is outsourced ? why not accounting, administration, how do you outsource desktop support ? network administration ?

Good question. The reason is, as I said before, that engineering work in many organizations is considered a commodity. In other words, it is typically at lower positions in the human resources chain. For example, in many companies that hire engineers, most engineers are promoted by transferring them into management, administration, or marketing positions. That is, these positions are more important. They are not commodities. And this is the reason they can not be outsourced.

I still find it strange you are turning people away from engineering at a time when starting salaries and entry level vacancies are at a pretty big high.

If there are any chemical or petroleum engineers on this forum, they will answer you better than me! These high paying positions are cyclical. Such positions are usually found in industries related to oil, gas, chemicals, etc. It is true that engineers in these fields could be hired for a relatively higher salary (compared to other engineers), but they have the negative effect of a very probably layoff. This happened many times in companies working on, or somehow related to, the oil and gas industry. Among many other factors, when oil prices go high, companies sometime do cost efficiency eliminations and the petroleum engineers working on difficult-to-reach wells are layoffed. When the prices go down, they hire them back. And the cycle repeats. As for job security, forget about it!

The major point that I'm trying to convey here is job security. Engineering no longer have job security. Factors such as outsourcing, restructuring, etc. are contributing to this lack of security. A bit extreme, but related, example on this: would you encourage someone to be a stunt performer? stunt actors do get paid very high salaries but risk their lives for that.

Interesting discussion guys. I really want to hear more opinions on this.

 

[RufusDawes]

Ah my mistake with the call centre bit. The point I was trying to make was that if the scenario you describe is to occur or is occurring, what will happen is that the industries most likely to employ engineers are going to include positions related to industries that cannot be outsourced and that would not typically employ an engineer. This will be because of the scarcities of jobs and the over supply of candidates.

For example the tech support at a call centre. They won't advertise for an electronic/electrical engineer but they will get 700 applicants for the one job.

Now who am I going to hire ? Some guy with a cert III in networking ? or the bloke with the engineering degree ? I've got 700 pieces of paper infront of me and I need to discriminate. I know full well the condition of the employment market.

I'd hire the EE 9/10 will be a hell of a lot smarter and more dedicated. I haven't met a single engineering grad who wasn't reasonably sharp and switched on.

I understand business cycles, but the thing you seem to be over looking is that the first to be laid off are the people who are supporting a core business function. A mine can't run without engineers, but it can cut down on its admin, its HR can service multiple branches, the receptionist can ecome a mail clerk. Does the HR and recruiting field have any high job security ? are you honestly trying to suggest a young person with strong mathematical ability would be better getting a degree in HR ?

You are over looking the power of an engineering degree, it really does distinguish you from other graduates in the skills that you develop.

Point I am trying to make in a round about way is that no one has any job security these days, unless you're an accountant...or a school teacher.

Point I am trying to make is that no one really has it rosy. And I think where I come from, might be different to you (I live in Australia) an engineering degree is up there with the most powerful. With exception of medical degrees and trade certificates.

The fields you describe, HR, accounting, marketing are extremely competitive to my knowledge. Graduating engineers do not face the same level of competitiveness.

Then there is the benefit of the education. Hell, I want to know what you know and it is a lot more difficult to self teach. I mean if you've got the opportunity to get an engineering education, why not ? think of all your family members through history for which that would have been an impossibility. Again, my view will be different because I come from a wealthy country, its a question of quality of life in a major way but not a question of life and death. As I have heard it can be in the USA.

My point, if I have one seems all I have really done is asked you a question and then argue with you about the answer, I guess I am just a little shocked.

I don't know, what do you think is better ? a truck driver or a man with an electrical engineering degree ?