Benazir Bhutto Killed in Bomb Blast

[Pelt]

If they had started to get pissed off at Islam, it would have helped a lot better..

How could that possibly be helpful?

 

[arildno]

By attacking the vile doctrine responsible (sanctioning), for example, for the horrendous situation for women in all Islam-dominated societies.

 

[Pelt]

I doubt the PPP will participate in the elections any more. It's now just Musharraf vs. the MMA (or, as jcsd likes to call them: the Islamic militants). No points for guessing who wins.

Not if Bilawal Zardari and his father have anything to say about it. The elections have already been postponed to a TBA date, the rioting will setback the date even further. Hopefully it will be enough time for PPP to regroup, and Musharraf's government seems to be going all out trying to extend a hand to them by whatever backchannels are available.

PML-Q was previously going to boycott the election. I wonder if they'll change their minds now...

I think you mean PML-N. PML-Q is Musharraf's branch, although they've absorbed most of the other splinters by now. If the election date is postponed far enough, Sharif and friends might make a show. Then again, the man is the leader of a token opposition compared to the PPP. So long as the Zardaris play along, it doesn't matter if he stays in or out.

 

[Pelt]

By attacking the vile doctrine responsible (sanctioning), for example, for the horrendous situation for women in all Islam-dominated societies.

Okay, that's what we have a punditry and NGOs for. Is that it?

 

[arildno]

Okay, that's what we have a punditry and NGOs for. Is that it?

You disgust me. You are a deeply immoral person who trivializes the horrid effect Islam has on the lives on billions of people out of some twisted cultural relativism dogma you hold by.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Pelt]

You disgust me. You are a deeply immoral person who trivializes the horrid effect Islam has on the lives on billions of people out of some twisted cultural relativism dogma you hold by.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Hey, dude. No need to get personal. If you really think it's productive for us to spend our time on this board gnashing our teeth, ripping our garments off and donning sackcloth over atrocity in this world, fair enough. I assumed you were leading to some policy recommendations, that's all.

 

[arildno]

Hey, dude. No need to get personal. If you really think it's productive for us to spend our time on this board gnashing our teeth, ripping our garments off and donning sackcloth over atrocity in this world, fair enough.

How pathetic.

I assumed you were leading to some policy recommendations, that's all.

Policy recommendations?
Towards robber&murderer states?

Figure them out for yourself.

I'm sure you'll devise rosy-coloured fantasy schemes you think you can bring about in reality by "tact" and diplomacy.

 

[Pelt]

How pathetic.

I agree, anonymous whining on a discussion board is pathetic. So how about we get back to the meat?

Policy recommendations?
Towards robber&murderer states?

Figure them out for yourself.

Humor me and give me a hint or two.

I'm sure you'll devise rosy-coloured fantasy schemes you think you can bring about in reality by "tact" and diplomacy.

I'm not proposing anything, friend. I'm offering you the opportunity to do so.

 

[Gokul43201]

Not if Bilawal Zardari and his father have anything to say about it. The elections have already been postponed to a TBA date, the rioting will setback the date even further. Hopefully it will be enough time for PPP to regroup, and Musharraf's government seems to be going all out trying to extend a hand to them by whatever backchannels are available.

Actually, I'm sure there's external (read "US") encouragement as well, for (i) the PPP to participate, and (ii) for Musharraf to respect any power-sharing promises made to Bhutto (which, were likely themselves a result of a lot of a pressure from the US).

I think you mean PML-N.

Yes, that's what I meant. I caught the error during a re-read and fixed it.

PML-Q is Musharraf's branch, although they've absorbed most of the other splinters by now. If the election date is postponed far enough, Sharif and friends might make a show. Then again, the man is the leader of a token opposition compared to the PPP. So long as the Zardaris play along, it doesn't matter if he stays in or out.

Token opposition, but valuable as an ally if anything other than a PML-N + PPP alliance shakes out.

Two things (internally) are going to decide which way the cards fall:
1. What comes out of the investigation, and how it is (seen to be) handled,
2. What comes out of the riots, and how they are orchestrated as well as how they will be stamped out.

 

[Pelt]

Actually, I'm sure there's external (read "US") encouragement as wel, for (i) the PPP to participate,

The hell, dude? That's hush, hush.

...and (ii) for Musharraf to respect any power-sharing promises made to Bhutto (which, were likely themselves a result of a lot of a pressure from the US).

Ironically, Bhutto's death likely easier for Musharraf to swallow coalition-building that's in his own interest. It's easier to work with the memory of a martyr than a living opponent you intensely dislike.

Token opposition, but valuable as an ally if anything other than a PML-N + PPP alliance shakes out.

I have to wonder though, how many PPP leaders will have to die before Musharraf ever considers working with Sharif? Then again, I was amazed he let the man back into Pakistan. There must've been some enormous arm-twisting by the US behind the scenes.

Two things (internally) are going to decide which way the cards fall:
1. What comes out of the investigation, and how it is (seen to be) handled,
2. What comes out of the riots, and how they are orchestrated as well as how they will be stamped out.

I don't think the riots will play a significant role in shaping how the PPP works with PML, if for no other reason than that the party leadership has more to fear now from the Islamist coalition than PML. That leaves 1), and that depends now largely on how (un)reasonable PPP is willing to be given how far the government is bending over backwards to do it right the first time. I'm wagering that the move to install Bilawal Zardari is a signal that PPP will not drag this out to the point of absurdity.

On another note, interesting piece in http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698949,00.html?imw=Y yesterday. Steve Cohen at Brookings observes: "Bhutto was the only Pakistani politician willing to stand up and say, 'I don't like violent terrorists,'"

Even so, Musharraf is the only Pakistani so far that's shown the willingness to kill them. Kind of a weird that PPP still has to play catch up in that regard. Still, Bhutto's death finally gives PPP the credibility they need to show they're in the fight.

 

[arildno]

Ooh, how clever you are little boy.
As if it matters one whit if the leading figure in Pakistan is called Zia ul-Haq, Nawaz Sharif, Musharraf or Imran Khan.

You are blathering about trivialities.

 

[Gokul43201]

That leaves 1), and that depends now largely on how (un)reasonable PPP is willing to be given how far the government is bending over backwards to do it right the first time. I'm wagering that the move to install Bilawal Zardari is a signal that PPP will not drag this out to the point of absurdity.

I can't imagine that stretching "negotiations" beyond a certain point will be beneficial to the PPP. They've got all the infrastructure already in place for the election - just need some reworking. But if they drag things out too long, they risk losing momentum on the sympathy vote.

On another note, interesting piece in http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698949,00.html?imw=Y yesterday. Steve Cohen at Brookings observes: "Bhutto was the only Pakistani politician willing to stand up and say, 'I don't like violent terrorists,'"

Even so, Musharraf is the only Pakistani so far that's shown the willingness to kill them. Kind of a weird that PPP still has to play catch up in that regard.

If you've been "with" these violent terrorists during your last term, you've got to give it some time before you start denouncing them, lest the smell of hypocrisy drown out the message.

Naturally, there's been no pressure on the PPP to do anything they might later regret. No such luck for Mush!

 

[arildno]

If you do want a measure that WILL be effective in the long run, it is the forcible shutdown of hate-spewing madrassahs, indoctrinating new generations of impoverished/orphaned children in radical Islam.

Rather, the zakat should be steered to build REAL schools for these kids, where they were given REAL education, rather than be beaten into memorizing the Quran.

No Pakistani politician has the balls to attack the root problem in their society.

 

[Gokul43201]

As if it matters one whit if the leading figure in Pakistan is called Zia ul-Haq, Nawaz Sharif, Musharraf or Imran Khan.

Hey, Imran Khan might be good!

But seriously, there is a difference, in that some people are a lot more susceptible to external pressures than others (and conversely, others are more susceptible to internal pressures).

In fact, the best hope for any rapid improvement is a military dictatorship that is puppet-stringed by the west. But is that what you want?

 

[arildno]

In fact, the best hope for any rapid improvement is a military dictatorship that is puppet-stringed by the west. But is that what you want?

Certainly.

 

[Evo]

This thread has run it's course.