Moscow Subway bombings kill 35+ civilians

[Cyrus]

People who believe in law and order agree that terrorists must be destroyed.

No, they don't actually. The US military knows it cannot kill every single terrorist, so instead they try to remove the environmental stimuli which leads them to terrorism in the first place. You really should watch CSPAN more often when generals give speeches. That's why Bush was trying to win the 'Hearts and Minds' of the Iraqis. Think about that.

 

[calculusrocks]

This may be an almost laughable analogy, but would you guys consider the rebels in Star Wars terrorists?

 

[pallidin]

Killing innocent civilians is called Terrorism all over the world. People who believe in law and order agree that terrorists must be destroyed.

Yep...

 

[GeorgCantor]

No, they don't actually. The US military knows it cannot kill every single terrorist, so instead they try to remove the environmental stimuli which leads them to terrorism in the first place. You really should watch CSPAN more often when generals give speeches. That's why Bush was trying to win the 'Hearts and Minds' of the Iraqis. Think about that.

How would you EVER remove all the "environemental stimuli which leads them to terrorism"? Sounds like utopia to me. What do you think we should do to those that already killed innocent people, but destroy them in the same manner they spilled innocent blood?

 

[Cyrus]

How would you EVER remove all the "environemental stimuli which leads them to terrorism"? Sounds like utopia to me. What do you think we should do to those that already killed innocent people, but destroy them in the same manner they spilled innocent blood?

Perhaps, you should see the report I linked. Start there. Considering I was at a talk given by a former Lt. General, and now Counter terrorism expert at the State Department, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

 

[pallidin]

...try to remove the environmental stimuli which leads them to terrorism in the first place.

Their "environmental" stimuli is, in fact, their ideology.
One and the same.

 

[Cyrus]

Their "environmental" stimuli is, in fact, their ideology.
One and the same.

Jesus Christ, stop talking. Start reading. Seriously.

Better yet, from now on, give me a link to every claimed factual statement you make, because this is getting out of hand.

 

[pallidin]

Cyrus...

From your posts I assume you are against "innocent killing" with respect to the events posted by the OP. (Note:.. I'm staying on subject)

 

[GeorgCantor]

Perhaps, you should see the report I linked. Start there. Considering I was at a talk given by a former Lt. General, and now Counter terrorism expert at the State Department, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

This Lt.General is entitled to his opinion and you should take it for what it's worth - an opinion.

There is no resolution to terrorism and there will never ever be. The rest is utopia. Given the impossibility to stamp out terrorism, the only way is fight it lawfully.

Do you think we should remove all environmental stimuli for people who become criminals and dismantle police forces? I am not aware of there being such a society.

 

[pallidin]

There is no resolution to terrorism and there will never ever be.

But there is! DESTRUCTION.

 

[meopemuk]

I don't know the details of this, and would like to be educated. But if the rebels feel this strongly about it, this rebellion is going to manifest itself for generations. Instead of going back in history and figuring out who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys, can't we just make an assumption that they are both better off being separate countries?

Russia will never let the separation happen. It might take a couple of generations to heal the wounds on both sides. But eventually, the unemployment will go down, the economy will improve, and people in Chechnya will lose their interest in separatism. This kind of scenario already took place in the 19th century. I don't see why it should be different this time.

 

[meopemuk]

The US military knows it cannot kill every single terrorist, so instead they try to remove the environmental stimuli which leads them to terrorism in the first place. You really should watch CSPAN more often when generals give speeches. That's why Bush was trying to win the 'Hearts and Minds' of the Iraqis. Think about that.

Russian authorities in Chechnya are doing the same. Aren't they?

 

[Max Faust]

The problem with a suicide bomber is that there isn't anything anybody can do. They are already dead, so they are beyond prosecution and punishment. There is also the problem that you can't prosecute anyone for something which they haven't done, so there really isn't much else you can do than try to create incentives for people to not blow themselves up.

There is a reason why this is called an asymmetric threat.

No conventional methods of warfare, or even police work, are useful strategies when confronting suicide bombers. If you start killing people you *think* perhaps *might* become suicide bombers some day, you are exacerbating the problem. You are also creating another problem for yourself which is that of not respecting your own laws for civil conduct.

All the "tough" boys who are commenting here, demanding retaliation and special forces and whatnot, are morons. Grow up. You cannot beat someone who has decided to kill themselves in action. They are beyond reproach. All you can do is to make them not make that decision to begin with - which makes this a political problem. Trying to be the strong arm of the law is precisely what they want you to do, and a sure way to lose.

An asymmetric threat must be confronted with asymmetric means.

 

[cronxeh]

This was not the deadliest terrorist attack in Russia's modern history. 170 people were killed in a Moscow theater in 2002. There were 334 victims of the Beslan school siege in 2004. So, I don't think that this time the response will take some epic proportions.

Moscow theater death toll was due to excess amount of sedative, Fentanyl (a simple Narcan injection or inhalation would've been the antidote), Beslan school is in North Ossetia (which most Russians will agree we do not care much for) - yes many children died, and death toll is high, but that is yet again an operational incompetence by the FSB.

This time the attack is at the heart of Russia, a few miles from Kremlin. This attack is more personal to Russia as a country than any other one combined. It brought fear to the very seat of government, and if you think that will be taken lightly, try again.

As far as I'm concerned there will be civil rights violations, killing of innocent civilians and an escalation of military presence in the south. Even Georgia might get back handed if it gives a lip to Russia this time, international observers or not.

All the "tough" boys who are commenting here, demanding retaliation and special forces and whatnot, are morons. Grow up

Yeah? You think anyone cares about your terminology or analysis on the matter? They will roll tanks into the city center in the next few weeks, bomb a few 'suspected' terrorist holdouts and rape women and children. Then they will do this until they find one of the leaders like Dokka Umarov. There won't be a news coverage.

The problem with a suicide bomber is that there isn't anything anybody can do. They are already dead, so they are beyond prosecution and punishment. There is also the problem that you can't prosecute anyone for something which they haven't done, so there really isn't much else you can do than try to create incentives for people to not blow themselves up.

You can kill their entire family and make sure the next time someone even thinks about becoming a terrorist realizes about the consequences ('Teach your children better, or die' style). You can hunt down whoever assisted the bomber and kill them (Mossad style). You can kill whoever funded them (In a different category of assistance, but nonetheless important as it sprouts the leadership of terrorist organizations not just the operational staff itself). There is always someone who is guilty of something. There is no such thing as an innocent civilian - they are all combatants the second they pick up a weapon, and most of them do. If they are not fighting then they are hiding and abbeting the terrorists.

 

[MotoH]

The first explosion was right next to the FSB headquarters if I am not mistaken.

 

[Cyrus]

Russian authorities in Chechnya are doing the same. Aren't they?

I am not knowledgeable enough with that part of the world to give you an answer to that question. I would have to look at what the Russian brass has been saying and doing in the media, but if you have any references about this I would be open to reading them.

 

[meopemuk]

Beslan school is in North Ossetia

This is true.

(which most Russians will agree we do not care much for)

This is not true. Most Russians do care about Ossetian children. When neighboring South Ossetia was in trouble Russians came to the rescue sacrificing their lives and ignoring international condemnation.

They will roll tanks into the city center in the next few weeks, bomb a few 'suspected' terrorist holdouts and rape women and children. Then they will do this until they find one of the leaders like Dokka Umarov. There won't be a news coverage [...] There is no such thing as an innocent civilian

Oh, please! Calm down.

 

[meopemuk]

The first explosion was right next to the FSB headquarters if I am not mistaken.

Yes, Lubyanka station is right next to FSB and 10 minutes walk from the Red Square.

 

[pallidin]

All the "tough" boys who are commenting here, demanding retaliation and special forces and whatnot, are morons. Grow up. You cannot beat someone who has decided to kill themselves in action. They are beyond reproach. All you can do is to make them not make that decision to begin with - which makes this a political problem.

Extremism can not be dealt with through politics because the foundation is idealogical.

The only option is to arrest/take-out the leaders, blow-up their meetings places, etc...
Having THEN taken care of the immediate threat, humanitarian re-education can proceed.

Just my opinion though...

 

[mgb_phys]

The only option is to arrest/take-out the leaders, blow-up their meetings places, etc...
Having THEN taken care of the immediate threat, humanitarian re-education can proceed.

I think that was also SAC's plan -however the terrorists got there first

 

[Cyrus]

Extremism can not be dealt with through politics because the foundation is idealogical.

The only option is to arrest/take-out the leaders, blow-up their meetings places, etc...
Having THEN taken care of the immediate threat, humanitarian re-education can proceed.

Just my opinion though...

Yes, you've already stated your talking points several times over in this thread - we get it.

 

[jostpuur]

Isn't it a common phenomena that Chechen terrorists are female?

According to my understanding this is related to the Russian policy of killing all young Chechen males as terrorists. The Chechen females naturally are not going to turn into alternative sexuals simply because of the lack of guys. These women go after their guys... and take some Russians with them.

 

[meopemuk]

...the Russian policy of killing all young Chechen males as terrorists.

Never heard of such a policy.

These women go after their guys... and take some Russians with them.

These women are called "black widows" in the Caucasus. They wear black dresses and their sole purpose in life is the revenge for their fallen husbands, sons, brothers, ...

 

[pallidin]

Yes, you've already stated your talking points several times over in this thread - we get it.

Great! Glad to see your in the camp.

 

[jostpuur]

... the Russian policy of killing all young Chechen males as terrorists.

Never heard of such a policy.

I was left under this impression after watching some documentary, which was uploaded to youtube.

 

[meopemuk]

I was left under this impression after watching some documentary, which was uploaded to youtube.

Keep in mind that people shooting documentaries or writing newspaper articles (almost) always have an agenda and bias. It is a good practice to listen to both sides before forming an opinion. I found it very unfortunate that US and Western media is often biased when covering the "outside" world (Iraq, Iran, China, Russia, Chechnya, Georgia, Yugoslavia, etc.)

 

[jostpuur]

Keep in mind that people shooting documentaries or writing newspaper articles (almost) always have an agenda and bias. It is a good practice to listen to both sides before forming an opinion. I found it very unfortunate that US and Western media is often biased when covering the "outside" world (Iraq, Iran, China, Russia, Chechnya, Georgia, Yugoslavia, etc.)

It could be that my instinct has eventually lead me in the following direction:

If there are countries A and B, and A's media informs me about how A is improving the world, and how B is carrying out atrocities, then I'm especially skeptical about the news about A's improving efforts, but not so skeptical about the news about B's atrocities.

And the same thing when you swap A and B.

 

[Max Faust]

Extremism can not be dealt with through politics because the foundation is idealogical.

Interesting point of view.

Do you seriously think that "extremism as ideology" will die out if only you kill enough extremists in extreme enough ways? There are ways to isolate the extremists by going into dialogue with moderate forces belonging to the same group, population, etc.