Buy a sport bike sometime in the next year

[franznietzsche]

franznietzsche, have you spent some time in the saddles of various sportbikes, cruisers, etc? Some people (myself included) get pretty cramped riding a sports bike for an hour or two, while the more vertical spine-orientation of a cruiser let's me ride all day in comfort. If your commutes are short, a sport bike may be OK, but with your height, you may want to try a cruiser with forward controls.

As I said above, I just started seriously considering this, and don't even plan to make a purchase for another year probably. I'm fairly certain I don't want a cruiser. A standard maybe. As a side note, its a little meaningless to talk about short commutes. My commute in New Mexico is 20 miles, I consider that short. My commute in Los Angeles is 75, which I consider mediocre. In San Luis Obispo, I have no commute, for now.

If my idiot neighbor survives long enough to sell his sport bike, I pity the person who buys it. Many times, I have heard him start it up and red-line it in neutral immediately before it has had time to build any oil pressure. Obviously not a candidate for engineering school - married with children and still living with his parents. I don't think he'll live long enough to sell it, though, because this road has some significant blind curves and blind hills (old county road) and he rips through them at very high speeds.

Rest assured, I don't plan to being doing anything stupid like that. I'm more than willing to get my high speed thrills at the track, and NOT the road.

Do NOT buy anything faster than a 250 for your first bike.

You will find this answer time and time again if you go asking bike riders.

When you buy a bike it is like a contract between you and the machine - the motorcycle provides the performance, and you sure as **** better bring the skill or it WILL destroy you.

My only problems with the 250, are dealing with California freeways (or worse, New Mexico freeways), and my height. But I haven't completely closed off the idea of the Ninja 250. I do intend to look more closely at everything when I get closer to making an actual purchase (again, probably a year away). Interesting that you link that, as the bike I'm leaning towards (purely for the moment), the GS500, is one of the ones he recommends. What is most likely at this point, would be to buy a used 250, and keep for six months to a year(likely riding every day), before upgrading to probably the GS500.

 

[berkeman]

I don't think you will like the Ninja 250, or even the Nija 500 for that matter. They are way underpowered, which can be dangerous in itself when you need to maneuver quickly to avoid a bad situation. When you take the Beginner MSF class, you will probably be on their loaner 250 bikes. I rode a friend's Ninja 500 once (he wanted me to make sure he had it set up correctly), and the power was very disappointing.

Glad to hear that you plan to keep the fast stuff on the track and off the public roads. Smart guy.

 

[franznietzsche]

I don't think you will like the Ninja 250, or even the Nija 500 for that matter. They are way underpowered, which can be dangerous in itself when you need to maneuver quickly to avoid a bad situation.

As I said, that is my concern. Southern California freeways can go from sixty to zero in less than a quarter mile (I have had to slam on the brakes in my car on the 405 at the sepulveda pass like that before), and back up to speed just as suddenly. New Mexico freeways are even scarier.

Any opinion on the GS500?

 

[berkeman]

Any opinion on the GS500?

Sorry, I'm no help on that bike. Like I mentioned earlier, I was happy with my 600F3/F4 bikes, and I was pretty impressed with the SV650s at Jason Pridmore's STAR racetrack school. Several of the instructors were on them (Jason's school is sponsored by Suzuki), and they plain hauled the mail.

 

[slugcountry]

I don't think you will like the Ninja 250, or even the Nija 500 for that matter. They are way underpowered, which can be dangerous in itself when you need to maneuver quickly to avoid a bad situation. When you take the Beginner MSF class, you will probably be on their loaner 250 bikes. I rode a friend's Ninja 500 once (he wanted me to make sure he had it set up correctly), and the power was very disappointing.

Glad to hear that you plan to keep the fast stuff on the track and off the public roads. Smart guy.

Hi berke, while its true that this IS a problem for the ninja 500, the 250 weighs significantly less, and accelerates quite nicely (i do wonder if the gs500 exhibits the same problem)

 

[berkeman]

I just looked up the Suzuki GS500, and it's got around 40hp:

http://www.mcreports.com/Pages/Indivbikes/Suzuki/GS500E.html

40hp is pretty low for commuting, IMO. Staying out of cage blind spots is an important key to riding well and surviving, and about half of the time you need to use acceleration to get out of the blind spot.

But, different strokes for different folks. Hopefully franz will get to try out a couple of the bikes we've been suggesting before he makes his purchase.

 

[Cyrus]

Arg. I just realized you want to drive this thing every day on the beltway. You mighttttttttt want to think twice about that. Living is a nice thing you know. People can't drive for crap, and personally I would *never* use a bike that much. I would take it out for fun on quiet days and open it up.

Taking it on the road like that is suicide!

People drive like *idiots* Bikes are for luxury, not for trying to save money on gas or driving daily!

 

[berkeman]

Arg. I just realized you want to drive this thing every day on the beltway. You mighttttttttt want to think twice about that. Living is a nice thing you know. People can't drive for crap, and personally I would *never* use a bike that much. I would take it out for fun on quiet days and open it up.

Taking it on the road like that is suicide!

People drive like *idiots* Bikes are for luxury, not for trying to save money on gas or driving daily!

Not when you have commutes like those here in Silicon Valley or down in SoCal. Lane splitting is generally allowed here in Cali, and the commutes can be plain intolerable in a cage.

There are definitely a lot of tricks to riding reasonable safely. You learn the basic tricks and strategies in the MSF class, and I've got a few more advanced safety videos that I've worn out watching. And as you ride more, you figure out even more advanced strategies, and notice things that you should do in specialized situations.

I do recommend wearing lots of gear to protect you in the event of a crash, though. I like the Aerostitch riding suits (with all the optional pads), quality full-face helmet, gloves with gauntlets, and good riding boots. I think I'm approaching about 150,000 miles of performance commuting (and over 1000 miles on racetracks), with no bike-car impacts. I've managed to low-side a couple of times because of my own misjudgements, but my gear kept me from getting hurt.

 

[Cyrus]

Dont you guys have any public transportation systems like the metro train?

I can tell you one thing, people in DC can NOT drive worth damn.

 

[franznietzsche]

Arg. I just realized you want to drive this thing every day on the beltway.

Well, to be perfectly accurate, I only commute in LA 3-4 weeks out of the year anymore (and that much only for another year or two, which I may not even have the bike before then), and NM for 3 months out of the year.

You mighttttttttt want to think twice about that. Living is a nice thing you know. People can't drive for crap, and personally I would *never* use a bike that much. I would take it out for fun on quiet days and open it up.

Taking it on the road like that is suicide!

People drive like *idiots* Bikes are for luxury, not for trying to save money on gas or driving daily!

Life is a luxury, I intend to enjoy it. Besides, the only luxury item I allow myself is the vehicle I drive, currently my convertible, which doesn't have too many miles left to go on it. But the reason for me starting to plan for this a year ahead is just that, to be as safe about it as possible.

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah, you can be as safe as you like. It only takes 1 time for some idiot in the car next to you to not pay attention and your in a wheel chair.

It's your call, but personally Id stay far away from using a bike as a daily driver. I've seen bikers being tailgated by idiots in SUV's. All sorts of stuff that makes your blood boil. No thanks, I like to be in a metal cage when another 2000lb car hits me.

 

[franznietzsche]

Not when you have commutes like those here in Silicon Valley or down in SoCal. Lane splitting is generally allowed here in Cali, and the commutes can be plain intolerable in a cage.

Very much agreed.

There are definitely a lot of tricks to riding reasonable safely. You learn the basic tricks and strategies in the MSF class, and I've got a few more advanced safety videos that I've worn out watching. And as you ride more, you figure out even more advanced strategies, and notice things that you should do in specialized situations.

I do recommend wearing lots of gear to protect you in the event of a crash, though. I like the Aerostitch riding suits (with all the optional pads), quality full-face helmet, gloves with gauntlets, and good riding boots. I think I'm approaching about 150,000 miles of performance commuting (and over 1000 miles on racetracks), with no bike-car impacts. I've managed to low-side a couple of times because of my own misjudgements, but my gear kept me from getting hurt.

Absolutely. Thats another thing on my list of things to consider carefully and thoroughly. Low-side?

i Dont you guys have any public transportation systems like the metro train?

I can tell you one thing, people in DC can NOT drive worth damn.

When I work in LA, in any given day, I'm as likely as not to drive across the entire county multiple times to several locations. Even if we had it, which we don't, it wouldn't be feasible for me. I drive as much as 400 miles per day (though, the norm is about 200 for me) when I'm working down there.

in NM, it just doesn't exist (at least not out to where I'm staying), 20 miles from all other civilization in every direction.

 

[berkeman]

Dont you guys have any public transportation systems like the metro train?

In Silicon Valley, there are a few public transit lines (busses, Amtrack trains, Light Rail) that can work for some people (who live along the lines). And there are the BART trains for getting into San Francisco and Oakland. But from the East Bay down to San Jose, there isn't any real practical alternative.

At least back when my commute was from the East Bay over the Dumbarton Bridge to Palo Alto, I was able to ride my road (pedal) bike a couple times a week during the summer. It was about an hour each way, plus the noontime swim workouts. Those were the good days!

 

[franznietzsche]

Yeah, you can be as safe as you like. It only takes 1 time for some idiot in the car next to you to not pay attention and your in a wheel chair.

It only takes one time in a car too. It only takes one time walking on the sidewalk. I have no intention of spending any part of my life worrying about anything I can't control. If I can control it, I'll do something about it. If I can't, then all I can do is hope for the best. I've got better things to do than worry about things I can't control.

 

[berkeman]

Low-side?

A low-side crash is when you are in a turn and lose traction with your front wheel. That causes the front tire to turn in and slide out, and you fall the short distance to the pavement and start sliding along. It's called the low-side because you fall the short distance to the ground on the side that you are leaning on. Low-side crashes generally don't hurt much, as long as you don't hit anything before you stop, and as long as you don't get run over, obviously.

A high-side crash generally hurts a lot. It usually would happen when you are in a turn and lose traction with your back tire. The back tire starts to slide out, you back off the gas (or brakes) and the tire catches traction, and the bike whips back into you fairly violently. This usually results in you getting launched over the high-side of the bike, which means you fall further and bounce a time or two before you start sliding. You are also on the wrong side of the bike as it chases you down the road.

My low-side crashes have generally happened because I misjudged the amount of traction available, and lost the front end in a turn. You can sometimes save a low-side by getting on the gas (we do this in dirtbike riding a lot), but it just depends on the conditions. My fastest crash was a low-side at about a buck in Turn 5 at Laguna Seca at one of Reg Pridmore's CLASS racetrack schools. Turns out I put about a dozen thermal cycles on my new performance tires before the class date, and that's a bad idea. Maybe one or two thermal cycles (a commute), but not a dozen. You really learn a lot about traction when riding at a racetrack.

 

[franznietzsche]

A low-side crash is when you are in a turn and lose traction with your front wheel. That causes the front tire to turn in and slide out, and you fall the short distance to the pavement and start sliding along. It's called the low-side because you fall the short distance to the ground on the side that you are leaning on. Low-side crashes generally don't hurt much, as long as you don't hit anything before you stop, and as long as you don't get run over, obviously.

A high-side crash generally hurts a lot. It usually would happen when you are in a turn and lose traction with your back tire. The back tire starts to slide out, you back off the gas (or brakes) and the tire catches traction, and the bike whips back into you fairly violently. This usually results in you getting launched over the high-side of the bike, which means you fall further and bounce a time or two before you start sliding. You are also on the wrong side of the bike as it chases you down the road.

Thats about what I thought.

My low-side crashes have generally happened because I misjudged the amount of traction available, and lost the front end in a turn. You can sometimes save a low-side by getting on the gas (we do this in dirtbike riding a lot), but it just depends on the conditions. My fastest crash was a low-side at about a buck in Turn 5 at Laguna Seca at one of Reg Pridmore's CLASS racetrack schools. Turns out I put about a dozen thermal cycles on my new performance tires before the class date, and that's a bad idea. Maybe one or two thermal cycles (a commute), but not a dozen. You really learn a lot about traction when riding at a racetrack.

Ouch.

 

[Cyrus]

It only takes one time in a car too. It only takes one time walking on the sidewalk. I have no intention of spending any part of my life worrying about anything I can't control. If I can control it, I'll do something about it. If I can't, then all I can do is hope for the best. I've got better things to do than worry about things I can't control.

No no no, don't kid yourself. This is illogical and childish...

 

[berkeman]

It only takes one time in a car too. It only takes one time walking on the sidewalk. I have no intention of spending any part of my life worrying about anything I can't control. If I can control it, I'll do something about it. If I can't, then all I can do is hope for the best. I've got better things to do than worry about things I can't control.

Well, I'd like to emphasize that there are many, many things that you can do as you ride to help you avoid an accident. Cyrus is certainly correct that there are many dangerous cages out there, and it only takes one time to take you out. But it's kind of like the old fighter pilot stories, about how if you survived your first week of sorties, you would probably survive the war (because you had time to learn the survival tricks).

Here's one concrete example of a very valuable strategy that they teach in the MSF class. I use this technique several times a week, generally. You are approaching an intersection where a car coming from the opposite direction is stopped waiting to turn left. You are following an SUV, so it is hard for the stopped car to see you, and there is a moderate chance they will turn quickly right after the SUV clears and take you out. So you take the left wheel-track lane position behind the SUV, a little back of normal position as you approach the intersection. This makes you as visible as possible to the stopped car. Just as you get to the intersection, you pull into the right wheel track and accelerate up closer to the SUV. This uses the SUV as a "blocker" to make it harder for the stopped car to turn too soon and take you out. Finally, you watch the stopped car to see if they are going to mis-time their turn and have a chance of hitting you. If it looks close, you accelerate sharply (see, no Ninja 500) to the right up closer to the SUV, and even alongside the right side if it's that close.

That technique is not something you're going to figure out on your own, probably, so it's great that the MSF has compiled that trick and a bunch of other ones into its class. There is also a set of VERY important tricks and techniques to use when lane splitting, and they only mention a few of them in the MSF class (depends on the instructor). It's good to have an experienced rider as a mentor as you start riding. My son (now 12) has been riding with me on the street for several years, and we talk a lot about different survival strategies. When he gets his license, I plan on putting radios in our helmets, so we can ride together and talk about situations as they come up. Riding is dangerous, but knowledge and practice and skill mitigate the level of danger tremendously, IMO.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

 

[franznietzsche]

Well, I'd like to emphasize that there are many, many things that you can do as you ride to help you avoid an accident. Cyrus is certainly correct that there are many dangerous cages out there, and it only takes one time to take you out. But it's kind of like the old fighter pilot stories, about how if you survived your first week of sorties, you would probably survive the war (because you had time to learn the survival tricks).

This is exactly my point. I have no intention of neglecting anything that I can control to keep myself as safe as possible. Again, that is why i am looking into this a year before I even intend to get a bike.

Here's one concrete example of a very valuable strategy that they teach in the MSF class. I use this technique several times a week, generally. You are approaching an intersection where a car coming from the opposite direction is stopped waiting to turn left. You are following an SUV, so it is hard for the stopped car to see you, and there is a moderate chance they will turn quickly right after the SUV clears and take you out. So you take the left wheel-track lane position behind the SUV, a little back of normal position as you approach the intersection. This makes you as visible as possible to the stopped car. Just as you get to the intersection, you pull into the right wheel track and accelerate up closser to the SUV. This uses the SUV as a "blocker" to make it harder for the stopped car to turn too soon and take you out. Finally, you watch the stopped car to see if they are going to mis-time their turn and have a chance of hitting you. If it looks close, you accelerate sharply (see, no Ninja 500) to the right up closer to the SUV, and even alongside the right side if it's that close.

That technique is not something you're going to figure out on your own, probably, so it's great that the MSF has compiled that trick and a bunch of other ones into its class. There is also a set of VERY important tricks and techniques to use when lane splitting, and they only mention a few of them in the MSF class (depends on the instructor). It's good to have an experienced rider as a mentor as you start riding. My son (now 12) has been riding with me on the street for several years, and we talk a lot about different survival strategies. When he gets his license, I plan on putting radios in our helmets, so we can ride together and talk about situations as they come up. Riding is dangerous, but knowledge and practice and skill mitigate the level of danger tremendously, IMO.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

I had actually found that site already (since you mentioned the MSF courses previously), and defnitely intend on taking the course.

No no no, don't kid yourself. This is illogical and childish...

Mmkay, I'll get back to duct taping all those air vents every time the terror alert level changes. Hmmm...

 

[rocketboy]

Yeah, you can be as safe as you like. It only takes 1 time for some idiot in the car next to you to not pay attention and your in a wheel chair.

It's your call, but personally Id stay far away from using a bike as a daily driver. I've seen bikers being tailgated by idiots in SUV's. All sorts of stuff that makes your blood boil. No thanks, I like to be in a metal cage when another 2000lb car hits me.

it's so true... many times it doesn't matter what the biker's ability is... it's the other idiots on the road that don't know how to drive that are going to kill you. you could be the best rider in the world but when some guy runs a red light (or somethign) it isn't going to help you much.

 

[berkeman]

you could be the best rider in the world but when some guy runs a red light (or somethign) it isn't going to help you much.

But it's precisely that vulnerability that makes you do extra things at intersections on a motorcycle. I've avoided getting hit by red light runners several times, because I was doing extra scanning for just that. And when you approach an intersection where you can't see far enough both ways to be sure that nobody is coming, you have to slow down to stay in an envelope where you can stop in time if somebody is coming. Now if they're doing 110 in a 25 zone, you might misjudge the envelope and get hit...

 

[Cyrus]

See my friends bike Franz, this is what will happen if someone clips you (although not what happened to my friend, but results will be the same).

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/2200/untitledrx2.png

Now if that were a car, it would be a different story. I have seen someone get hit because he went through a yellow and the person on the other lane decided to make that last minute turn on the left arrow as the light changed. They hit hard but walked away. If that was you on your bike you would be dead.

 

[berkeman]

Cyrus -- I'm not sure I want to see the image, but FYI the uploadfile website is not serving it at the moment.

 

[Cyrus]

Fixed, thanks.

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/2497/phibike3xa4.png

Bye bye bike.

 

[slugcountry]

cyrus what exactly is your purpose in this thread?

we all know the risks, and we still love doing it

go live life

 

[Cyrus]

If you read my posts you would know my point...Right??

 

[franznietzsche]

@cyrus:

What is your point? You want to talk about risk?

I had a friend who was shot and killed. My best friend shot and killed himself. I've known two people who have died in avalanches. A guy I knew in high school died a month ago on a motorcycle when someone ******* ran a stop sign and nailed him. So if you think showing me pictures of a wrecked bike is going to freak me out, I'm sorry but you're wasting your time.

I still go skiing, have no qualms about going to the shooting range, and I'm not concerned about riding a motorcycle. I am concerned about not taking advantage of every opportunity I have while I can. I screwed up that way once already.

A plane crashed a week ago, killed everyone but one person on board. Should I never fly again?

There are risks in everything we do. Some risks you can mitigate. Do something about those. Some you can't do anything about. Live with it.

There is no point in living if you spend your life worrying about things you can't control. I'm more interested in actually enjoying the short span I've got.

 

[Cyrus]

Im glad you two don't pay attention to a word I have said.

Frankly, I could care less anymore...I tried to give you a word of warning but if you don't want to listen that's on you.

Cya.

Next time don't make a thread and ask for "recomendations and comments" if you don't want to listen to people when their advice would cause you to avoid unnecessary risks. You wanted to know about the seriousness of motorcycles and I gave it to you.

 

[slugcountry]

@cyrus:

What is your point? You want to talk about risk?

I had a friend who was shot and killed. My best friend shot and killed himself. I've known two people who have died in avalanches. A guy I knew in high school died a month ago on a motorcycle when someone ******* ran a stop sign and nailed him. So if you think showing me pictures of a wrecked bike is going to freak me out, I'm sorry but you're wasting your time.

I still go skiing, have no qualms about going to the shooting range, and I'm not concerned about riding a motorcycle. I am concerned about not taking advantage of every opportunity I have while I can. I screwed up that way once already.

A plane crashed a week ago, killed everyone but one person on board. Should I never fly again?

There are risks in everything we do. Some risks you can mitigate. Do something about those. Some you can't do anything about. Live with it.

There is no point in living if you spend your life worrying about things you can't control. I'm more interested in actually enjoying the short span I've got.

i feel like I've said those exact words so many times, way to go.

people just don't understand... you can die in the time it takes to type this sentence, live life to the fullest =)

edit: cyrus, he didnt ask for a lecture, he wanted to know what motorcycle to buy, take some of your own advice and read the thread.

 

[Cyrus]

Get one thing straight, I said what I said because I care about him.

Is it really worth getting killed because someone didnt stop at a stop sign?

 

[franznietzsche]

Get one thing straight, I said what I said because I care about him.

Is it really worth getting killed because someone didnt stop at a stop sign?

Is it really worth worrying about things I can't control?

 

[Cyrus]

But you CAN choose to drive a car...LOOK

If you want to get a bike AWESOME GET ONE! But treat it as a luxury item. Take it out on weekends, ride with a group of buddies.

If you want to drive it 24-7, so cars have a hard time seeing you riding alone, you are taking enormous risks, for no good reason.

 

[berkeman]

Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them: A desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill.

-Muhammad Ali

Cyrus, would you at least agree that the risks of riding a motorcycle can be significantly migitated by training, knowledge, patience, care, preparation and practice? We may not agree on the level of the mitigation, but I'm pretty sure that you would agree that riders can have an influence on their level of risk. Nice signature, BTW.

 

[3trQN]

I personally like the GSXR, but i would reccomend you start with something cheap and small first, a 250 is pleanty. If you haven't ridden one yet youll be suprised, traffic is not a problem on 250, even a 125 can push 70mph downhill.

The problem with rider skill is not so much handling of the machine but knowlage of the road, threat analysis and risk taking. If you go straight for 600, youll be learning a lot and fast and you won't have as much time for mistakes.

I personally road bikes for years off-road, progressed on to 50cc road, 125, 250, 600...Mostly because of the costs, but I am glad i couldn't afford a 600 at 18.

Car drivers are out to kill you, just so you know :P

I had some dude throw bannana skins out the car window while i was following the other day, i was dumb struck as i weaved between the peices, it was like something out of a cartoon. I was expecting the piano or anvil drop next.

Is it really worth worrying about things I can't control?

That sais that you may not be ready for 600 imo. Allways expect cars at junctions to pull out, to ignore the stop sign. You can control it by being prepared.
From a game theory point of view, what are your maximum losses? Your gains?

Cover the break, slow down anticipate him comming out, plan ahead and look for your exit point if he does (up the middle? hard shoulder?), where are my obstacles? If the worst happens where do i go?

Some drivers look right at you and still pull out

With a slower bike, you can learn all this at a better pace imo.

 

[franznietzsche]

I personally like the GSXR, but i would reccomend you start with something cheap and small first, a 250 is pleanty. If you haven't ridden one yet youll be suprised, traffic is not a problem on 250, even a 125 can push 70mph downhill.

Normal flow of traffic on the highway is 80+ around here, 60+ going up 7% grades. City traffic is not where I'm so much worried about the power of the 250 (at least not based on what limited knowledge I have as of now). Freeways though, I am concerned.

The problem with rider skill is not so much handling of the machine but knowlage of the road, threat analysis and risk taking. If you go straight for 600, youll be learning a lot and fast and you won't have as much time for mistakes.

I personally road bikes for years off-road, progressed on to 50cc road, 125, 250, 600...Mostly because of the costs, but I am glad i couldn't afford a 600 at 18.

Car drivers are out to kill you, just so you know :P

I had some dude throw bannana skins out the car window while i was following the other day, i was dumb struck as i weaved between the peices, it was like something out of a cartoon. I was expecting the piano or anvil drop next.

That sais that you may not be ready for 600 imo. Allways expect cars at junctions to pull out, to ignore the stop sign. You can control it by being prepared.
From a game theory point of view, what are your maximum losses? Your gains?

I think you misunderstood me. My preparation is something I can control.

Based on most of the statements here, I agree with regards to not starting on a GSX or a CBR (or other high end 600). I'm not convinced that a 250 is a good idea though.

Cover the break, slow down anticipate him comming out, plan ahead and look for your exit point if he does (up the middle? hard shoulder?), where are my obstacles? If the worst happens where do i go?

Some drivers look right at you and still pull out

With a slower bike, you can learn all this at a better pace imo.