Calculating the Oil Equivalent of Solar Energy Collected for a Hot Water System

[mgb_phys]

Looks like this alternative to a batteries could have even more problems keeping the users warm. http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/
Not sure if they are going to use the cooling effect of the expanding air as air-conditioning!

 

[drankin]

Cute idea but it won't catch on. I think transportation is always going to require that we burn something to get the power we are accustomed to.

 

[OmCheeto]

Cute idea but it won't catch on. I think transportation is always going to require that we burn something to get the power we are accustomed to.

I can't find the article I was looking for, but yes, people are always looking for new things to burn to run their vehicles:

Re: The Pellet Pickup
May 31, 2008, Larry Caldwell
... The Stanley ran on kerosene, but it would be simple to build
a wood pellet steam generator that would run on 100% biofuel. Rather
than using the piston steam engine of the Stanley, you could use a steam
turbine, and use it to directly drive a generator. You could eliminate
gears entirely and use solid state rectification of high frequency AC to
charge the batteries. ...

It appears he missed Leno's article on Stanleys & Dobles:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html
BY JAY LENO
Published in the May 2003 issue, Popular Mechanics

... Doble addressed the Stanley's problems. With my 1925 Doble, I get in, turn the key, and in under a minute I can pull away. And it pulls away silently, whoosh, just like that. It's an amazing feeling. With 1000 ft.-lb. of torque, it's effortless. ...

But all this talk about alternative power kind of makes you wonder if we aren't the ones keeping the electric car in it's grave. hmmm... nah. It was big oil.

I wonder when the price of lithium batteries is going to start dropping:

Castle Rock boat builder eyes electric-engine speed record
Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:54 PM PDT
By Brenda Blevins McCorkle

It took Bontoft roughly 18 months to build the boat, which cost about $30,000. The batteries worth $14,000 were donated by a Korean company, Enerland Division of A123 Systems.
During the last test, it topped at 101 mph.

and I don't know if anyone noticed, Mr. Twete's 4000 lb, 26ft electric boat is actually a hybrid:

batteries only:
range: 23 miles
225 ah * 12 batteries * 6 volts = 16.2kwh
16.2kwh * $0.10/kwh = $1.62
gas equivalent at $2.50/gal = 0.648 gallons
mileage: 35.5 mpg

hybrid mode:
Honda EU2000i 1.6kw continuous ultraquiet genset used for long cruises.
range limited to amount of fuel carried
mileage: 10 mpg
​

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with mileage figures for boats, but those are incredible numbers for a boat that size and weight.

My 14 foot, 400 lb, 40hp gas powered boat gets 6 mpg! Hence my research into ev-gas hybrids.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with mileage figures for boats, but those are incredible numbers for a boat that size and weight.
My 14 foot, 400 lb, 40hp gas powered boat gets 6 mpg! Hence my research into ev-gas hybrids.

There is research into totally bio-fueled boats, they can run on low grade organic waste products such as fast food indefinately and cruise at 6knots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme

They do require you find 160 naked, oiled and muscled Greek athletes - but Evo has volunteered to help.

 

[drankin]

This got me thinking. I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I believe hydrogen would be the best fuel. Now, we understand it creates a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water. If we were able to get over our obstacles concerning nuclear power plants and create a few that were dedicated to mining (for lack of a better term) hydrogen. They would be nuclear hydrogen refineries. Create a hydrogen infrastructure in this country. Then we would be able to drive vehicles as large as we like and we would become energy independant cleaning up the environment. The refineries would create or "dump" a large quantity of oxygen into the atmosphere and offset the carbon dioxide/oxygen ratio problem many believe we have. In the interim we can switch over to natural gas.

I haven't researched this idea at all, just brainstorming really, but it is one way that seems very doable and would solve a lot of our concerns (other than the nuclear power plant hurdle).

 

[mgb_phys]

That is one of the reasons for using hydrogen. It is a way of shipping large amounts of energy long distance without running pipelines. One porposal is that countries with geothermal or hydroelectric power could use it to make hydrogen and ship that to the car users in LA.
This is basically what happens with Aluminium at the moment - it takes so much power so run an Al smelter that you put them where there is cheap hydro power and then ship the ore to them and the finished metal to where it's needed.
You could use nuclear power to make hydrogen, but since you can put a nuclear power station where ever you want it would make more sense to build it near the city and just use it drive plugin vehicles or public transit.

ps.
It's not the oxygen/CO2 ratio that is important for greenhouse effect- it's the pure amount of CO2, anyway the amount of O2 from making hydrogen would be negligible.
You would probably make hydrogen by splitting methane rather than water anyway.

 

[drankin]

That is one of the reasons for using hydrogen. It is a way of shipping large amounts of energy long distance without running pipelines. One porposal is that countries with geothermal or hydroelectric power could use it to make hydrogen and ship that to the car users in LA.
This is basically what happens with Aluminium at the moment - it takes so much power so run an Al smelter that you put them where there is cheap hydro power and then ship the ore to them and the finished metal to where it's needed.
You could use nuclear power to make hydrogen, but since you can put a nuclear power station where ever you want it would make more sense to build it near the city and just use it drive plugin vehicles or public transit.

ps.
It's not the oxygen/CO2 ratio that is important for greenhouse effect- it's the pure amount of CO2, anyway the amount of O2 from making hydrogen would be negligible.
You would probably make hydrogen by splitting methane rather than water anyway.

Why methane (I'm no chemist). Is it easier to hydrogen from methane? What is left when you do that?

 

[OmCheeto]

This got me thinking. I'm not familiar with fuel cells but I believe hydrogen would be the best fuel. Now, we understand it creates a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from water. If we were able to get over our obstacles concerning nuclear power plants and create a few that were dedicated to mining (for lack of a better term) hydrogen. They would be nuclear hydrogen refineries. Create a hydrogen infrastructure in this country. Then we would be able to drive vehicles as large as we like and we would become energy independant cleaning up the environment. The refineries would create or "dump" a large quantity of oxygen into the atmosphere and offset the carbon dioxide/oxygen ratio problem many believe we have. In the interim we can switch over to natural gas.

I haven't researched this idea at all, just brainstorming really, but it is one way that seems very doable and would solve a lot of our concerns (other than the nuclear power plant hurdle).

Odd. I ran across just what you are talking about while looking for that pellet stove pellet fueled hybrid vehicle this morning:

Ammonia Borane Pellets May Power Hydrogen Cars Of The Future
August 22nd 2007 07:50 AM

The Department of Energy’s Chemical Hydrogen Storage Center of Excellence is investigating a hydrogen storage medium that holds promise in meeting long-term targets for transportation use. As part of the center, PNNL scientists are using solid ammonia borane, or AB, compressed into small pellets to serve as a hydrogen storage material. Each milliliter of AB weighs about three-quarters of a gram and harbors up to 1.8 liters of hydrogen. Researchers expect that a fuel system using small AB pellets will occupy less space and be lighter in weight than systems using pressurized hydrogen gas, thus enabling fuel cell vehicles to have room, range and performance comparable to today’s automobiles.

Like you, I've not done any research in this area. But it is nice to know that there are a lot of people out there researching all sorts of new technologies. God bless $4/gallon.

 

[mgb_phys]

Why methane (I'm no chemist). Is it easier to hydrogen from methane? What is left when you do that?

In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)
CH₄ -> C + 2H₂

In practice it's more efficent industrially to use steam.
CH₄ + H₂0 -> CO + 3H₂

So you have carbon monoxide which you can burn off to make CO₂, it's the same amount of CO₂ you would get if you burned the methane directly. The heat from this would power the process.

Eventually when you have industrial scale fuel cells and a source of electricty it may be more efficent to split water directly.

 

[drankin]

In principle you are left with just carbon (as coke)
CH₄ -> C + 2H₂

In practice it's more efficent industrially to use steam.
CH₄ + H₂0 -> CO + 3H₂

So you have carbon monoxide which you can burn off to make CO₂, it's the same amount of CO₂ you would get if you burned the methane directly. The heat from this would power the process.

Eventually when you have industrial scale fuel cells and a source of electricty it may be more efficent to split water directly.

I like it. How difficult is it to obtain large amounts of methane?

 

[mgb_phys]

I like it. How difficult is it to obtain large amounts of methane?

Methane is natural gas - there are big gas fields in lots of countries, Russia is probably the largest producer. It's basically like drilling for oil except gas is ussually at a shallower depth, needs a lot less processing before you sell it and is easier to transport.

 

[Proton Soup]

methane is also in huge ice deposits on the ocean floor, if only we can get at it. hydrogen's a bit impractical yet as a transportation fuel. H is too slippery and incompressible. it doesn't like to be held. but methane works fine in an ICE.

 

[mgb_phys]

but methane works fine in an ICE.

LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.
The UK government was offering a green grant to pay for the conversion and LPG was a 1/3 the price of gasoline because of lower tax. Then oddly when enough people had converted new research showed how bad for the environment it was and the grants stopped and the tax on LPG went up.
By a strange coincidence the same thing happened with diesel 10years early.

 

[mheslep]

Relevant threads -
"Another promising development in hydrogen storage"
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1909595&postcount=16
"Debunking the hydrogen economy: Renewable H2 filling stations?"
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1850582&postcount=14

 

[Proton Soup]

LPG car conversions are very popular in europe, the conversion is cheap and the engine can still run on gasoline.
The UK government was offering a green grant to pay for the conversion and LPG was a 1/3 the price of gasoline because of lower tax. Then oddly when enough people had converted new research showed how bad for the environment it was and the grants stopped and the tax on LPG went up.
By a strange coincidence the same thing happened with diesel 10years early.

ye olde baite and switche! yeah, I'm sure there was some lobbying going on behind the scenes from the natural gas suppliers. and no matter how friendly the technology, it will eventually be demonized because that makes it easier to tax.

 

[OmCheeto]

methane is also in huge ice deposits on the ocean floor, if only we can get at it. hydrogen's a bit impractical yet as a transportation fuel. H is too slippery and incompressible. it doesn't like to be held. but methane works fine in an ICE.

Ugh. Methane, methane, methane.
Actually, I was arguing the merits of methane over hydrogen a couple of months ago.
I must be turning into a Libertarian...

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-space.htm
- September 12, 1962
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.

[ctrl][h]find:go to the moon, replace:become energy independent[return]

While I agree that harvesting methane is a cheap and easy fix to our current dilemma, we should continue on the difficult and expensive task of fixing our dependence on "burning things up" to get from here to there.

 

[OmCheeto]

ye olde baite and switche! yeah, I'm sure there was some lobbying going on behind the scenes from the natural gas suppliers. and no matter how friendly the technology, it will eventually be demonized because that makes it easier to tax.

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

 

[mheslep]

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

A sales tax / VAT certainly does it indirectly.

 

[mgb_phys]

"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

With the UK's crazy VAT rules they could probably tax the proportion of food you used in walking to work as fuel.

 

[Proton Soup]

Do you think they'll one day think of a way to tax the sunlight my solar panels collect?
Gads.
Taxman!
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."

IIRC, that was actually a problem in California. pretty much all energy production is taxed. no reason for hydro or wind or solar to be exempt. except, of course, initially so people will actually build it.

oh, and i guess indirectly the government does tax walking, since it taxes property.

 

[drankin]

Ugh. Methane, methane, methane.
Actually, I was arguing the merits of methane over hydrogen a couple of months ago.
I must be turning into a Libertarian...



[ctrl][h]find:go to the moon, replace:become energy independent[return]

While I agree that harvesting methane is a cheap and easy fix to our current dilemma, we should continue on the difficult and expensive task of fixing our dependence on "burning things up" to get from here to there.

But, burning hydrogen/methane is about as clean as you can get. I see no other way to get the energy, aside from petroleum, you need to move things. Electric energy cannot compete with burning fuels in the shipping industry. Whether semi-trucks, trains (electric motors powered by diesel generators), or aircraft, you can't do that with electricity alone. Stuff has to burn to get from here to there.

 

[marlon]

So, now that Obama is president. Will the electric car appear on the market sooner ?marlon

 

[mheslep]

So, now that Obama is president. Will the electric car appear on the market sooner ?


marlon

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

 

[marlon]

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

and you know this how ?

 

[mgb_phys]

and you know this how ?

Progress in battery performance, announcements by car makers and the time taken for a significant number of people to change their car - especially in the current climate.
Of course the president could do something spectacular to raise the price of oil by a $100 - like invade Canada?

 

[OmCheeto]

But, burning hydrogen/methane is about as clean as you can get. I see no other way to get the energy, aside from petroleum, you need to move things. Electric energy cannot compete with burning fuels in the shipping industry. Whether semi-trucks, trains (electric motors powered by diesel generators), or aircraft, you can't do that with electricity alone. Stuff has to burn to get from here to there.

You are quite correct. Methane is a wonderfully clean fuel, albeit still a "harvestable fuel", but still cleaner than the longer chains of hydrocarbon fuels. But I like Ivan's algae solution. Have you ever studied the reproductive habits of algae? They double their population every 2 or 3 hours as I recall.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/11/08/drivers_get_charged_up_about_plugging_in_cars/"

Bina Venkataraman
The Boston Globe
November 8, 2008

Since July, when a Watertown company, A123 Systems, began selling the $10,000 batteries online, at least 200 hybrid owners have had them installed. The six garages in the country licensed to install them have filled their calendars through December.

"If I had 500 of them right now, I probably could have them sold within the next two months," said Don Fahnestock, owner of The Green Car Company in Bellevue, Wash.
...
Still, the drivers are unlikely to ever recoup the steep cost of the battery in fuel savings, unless gas far exceeds the recent high of more than $4 a gallon or the car is driven more than 250,000 miles.
...
But for these drivers, saving money is not the point.

Kevin Curran, an electrical engineer from Hollis, N.H., whose son recently returned from his second tour of duty in Iraq as a US Marine, bought the extra battery so he could use less oil. "We have to reduce our oil imports," he said. "This is my small contribution to reduce demand."
...
Some call these drivers early adopters. Their neighbors and friends call them tech-geeks, eco-freaks, "Pious" drivers, and, more succinctly, nuts - those who are willing to spend what for some people would be several months' salary to tinker in energy efficiency. But the plug-in crowd defies simple labels. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA, owns a plug-in retrofitted Prius (adorned with a "Bin Laden Hates This Car" bumper sticker). Plug-in cars are one of the cheapest ways to clean up the country's transportation sector...
...
But John Heywood, an MIT professor who specializes in alternative vehicles, said the plug-in Prius drivers are taking a risk by using the A123 Systems technology. "They might screw up their cars," he said. "But there are always people who want to take a stand and want to improve things."

One thing that continues to bug me is the fact that a lot of people still look at the battery packs as an investment that needs a reasonable "payback time".

What's the return on investment by buying any car? Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car? No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

And Heywoods comment is so do-gooder; "You're going to put your eye out with that battery!"

 

[Office_Shredder]

What's the return on investment by buying any car? Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car? No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

I can't drive without wheels. I can drive without a battery. I don't see how you can get that confused to be honest

 

[OmCheeto]

I can't drive without wheels. I can drive without a battery. I don't see how you can get that confused to be honest

When I'm driving back and forth to work in my solar powered plug in hybrid, and you're waiting an hour in line during the next gas crisis, we'll see who's confused.

 

[drankin]

When I'm driving back and forth to work in my solar powered plug in hybrid, and you're waiting an hour in line during the next gas crisis, we'll see who's confused.

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

 

[russ_watters]

One thing that continues to bug me is the fact that a lot of people still look at the battery packs as an investment that needs a reasonable "payback time".

Why can't the batteries be looked at as an integral part of the car?

Because batteries are properly considered a consumable. They don't last as long as the rest of the car and if you keep the car for a certain amount of time or certain number of miles, you have to replace them. Just like tires.

No one goes to the dealership and tells the salesman to remove the wheels and tires because they don't see the value added by such expensive options.

Yah, actually some people do. More often, though, they just ask for a credit if you sell the car with tires that need to be replaced. I'm a little concerned that when I sell my car, someone might request that I swap out my 17" wheels for 15" or ask for money off the car if the tires are almost ready to be replaced. By the same token, you can be sure that if I put $800 worth of tires on the car right before I sell it, I'm jacking up the price of the car.

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

I'm going to make a fortune building bars and bail bond stores next to "gas" stations. People will drink for 6 hours while their cars recharge, get arrested for DUI, then I'll post their bail!

 

[OmCheeto]

Meanwhile, please stay to the right so we can get around you easier going up those hills.

And that young drankin, is precisely why I've yet to invest a penny in an electrical automobile.

I contacted the local Zap car dealer about a year ago and told them of my driving requirements. They quite honestly told me to wait for the new and improved version coming out next year.

 

[mheslep]

Well the pure EV will not 'appear' while he's president, not in any large numbers.

and you know this how ?

Progress in battery performance, announcements by car makers and the time taken for a significant number of people to change their car - especially in the current climate.
Of course the president could do something spectacular to raise the price of oil by a $100 - like invade Canada?

Exactly. Also add: inability to make long distance trips requiring a recharge in route and the recharging stations to go with them. Shai Agassi's 'Better Place' company proposes to solve this with on the fly battery replacement, but I don't see it working large scale, IMO. The potential of the pure EV is so good that its bound to happen, its just going to take awhile. That is maybe 10^5 EV's/year could start popping up, but nothing of the scale that will quickly supplant the 10^9 ICE vehicles in the next eight years. Meanwhile substantial R&D is justified, IMO.

http://www.betterplace.com/our-bold-plan/how-it-works/

 

[russ_watters]

I contacted the local Zap car dealer about a year ago and told them of my driving requirements. They quite honestly told me to wait for the new and improved version coming out next year.

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

 

[SticksandStones]

I wonder what they'll say next year?

Btw, I just noticed your signature. My company recently did a solar water heater installation and for fun, we calculated how many gallons of oil the collecter saved per square foot per year. Wanna guess what we came up with?

I'm going to guess some negative number if you took into account the oil needed to produce and ship the solar water heater.