Can Humans Really Have Superhuman Strength?

[FizixFreak]

Oh I understand, I'm just saying that however he came to be the way he CLAIMS, there is no logic to it in any framework, secular, religious, or in between.

His claims make no sense, and his demonstration with the coin is either impressive, or Yuri Geller's style... and we all know how reliable Yuri is eh? Bending spoons... arrgh.

I understand your point however, but I'd add... you're right that the media there is being immature; they want this man to be amazing. It's that wanting that we all have, that needs to be guarded, and when we find truly amazing things to be true, it makes guarding our credulity all the better for the wait.

So i guess those claims of his are officially busted

Any way i was just wondering that in the worlds strongest men competitions the participants do amazing things i wonder how much HP does these tasks requite for example pulling a truck which is a part of strong men competitions.

 

[nismaratwork]

So i guess those claims of his are officially busted

Any way i was just wondering that in the worlds strongest men competitions the participants do amazing things i wonder how much HP does these tasks requite for example pulling a truck which is a part of strong men competitions.

DanP is the guy to ask about that, no doubt.

edit: and may Proton_Soup

 

[DanP]

Any way i was just wondering that in the worlds strongest men competitions the participants do amazing things i wonder how much HP does these tasks requite for example pulling a truck which is a part of strong men competitions.

I say you should start by understanding the concepts of work, power and energy.

 

[FizixFreak]

MY goodness!




26000 pounds for 120 feet in just 28 seconds

which=111429lbs-foot/second which =202Hp

BUT he does uses the rope for assistance so the calculation might not be accurate.

 

[DanP]

MY goodness!

26000 pounds for 120 feet in just 28 seconds

which=111429lbs-foot/second which =202Hp

BUT he does uses the rope for assistance so the calculation might not be accurate.

Again, please understand the concepts. Think about what force is actually necessary to pull the truck :P Do you really think that man developed 148000+ Watts ?

 

[FizixFreak]

Again, please understand the concepts. Think about what force is actually necessary to pull the truck :P

Can you please elaborate..., i would like to see your take on this video i mean if calculations are made in a proper way what amount of power would have been exerted?

 

[JaredJames]

Can you please elaborate

You are only required to overcome resistance to pull the truck.

This is nowhere near 26000 pounds of force.

Note, if the truck had no wheels (just imagine a 26000 pound block of concrete) he wouldn't stand a chance of moving it.

 

[DanP]

Can you please elaborate..., i would like to see your take on this video i mean if calculations are made in a proper way what amount of power would have been exerted?

If you assume that you want to pull the truck with a constant speed, you only to pull with a tension equal in module to the frictional force. This force is not the weight of the truck, it's WAY less.

It would be the weight only if you would do the work against gravity.

 

[FizixFreak]

You are only required to overcome resistance to pull the truck.

This is nowhere near 26000 pounds of force.

Note, if the truck had no wheels (just imagine a 26000 pound block of concrete) he wouldn't stand a chance of moving it.

Oh my goodness..., i can't believe i made such a huge mistake the man only needed to overcome the friction between the tires which were round(rolling friction is less than sliding friction) to really exert that much power he needed to move the truck against force of gravity now that was a big mistake even for a rookie i need to slap my self on the head for this i should really change my user name.

But to calculate the real work done and power we need to know the coeficent of friction not to mention both the static and kinetic coefficients between the tires and the ground can anybody give a rough estimation on that?

 

[nismaratwork]

Mistakes are part of learning... you're learning, so just keep going with it.

There's a reason people still do these stunts.. they're impressive, they make us think in terms of "WOW" rather than, "How?!"

 

[FizixFreak]

Thanx nismar i appreciate that but that WAS stupid i think i lost my edge when i stopped teaching those kids i though for an year would probably mourn their luck if they found out i made such a mistake but i guess mistakes ARE a part of life.

 

[h2oski1326]

But to calculate the real work done and power we need to know the coeficent of friction not to mention both the static and kinetic coefficients between the tires and the ground can anybody give a rough estimation on that?

In the video they claim that the tension on the cable between the strongman and the truck oscillated between 100lbf and 500lbf continuously, based on the data from the load cell. If you assume that is correct and the average tension was around 300lbf, this yields about:

$$\dot{W}=\frac{300lbf*120ft}{28sec}=2.33hp$$

That still seems pretty high considering I have read claims that Lance Armstrong can only maintain about 1/4hp on his bike. I suppose for such short duration it may make sense.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In the video they claim that the tension on the cable between the strongman and the truck oscillated between 100lbf and 500lbf continuously, based on the data from the load cell. If you assume that is correct and the average tension was around 300lbf, this yields about:

$$\dot{W}=\frac{300lbf*120ft}{28sec}=2.33hp$$

That still seems pretty high considering I have read claims that Lance Armstrong can only maintain about 1/4hp on his bike. I suppose for such short duration it may make sense.

Lance Armstrong can definitely produce more than 1/4 hp for a short time. I have personally managed a full HP for a few seconds in a reclining configuration. The limit for a human on a bike is around 1000 watts, or ~1.3 HP, for a few seconds. Most adults can manage 300-400 watts for a short time - in the range of 1 to 3 minutes. I would agree that Armstrong can likely produce 1/4 HP continuously.

Calling 100 - 500, 300, is a pretty wild approximation. For example, it could easily be closer to 100 most of the time, with only short bursts of 500.

 

[h2oski1326]

Lance Armstrong can definitely produce more than 1/4 hp for a short time. I have personally managed a full HP for a few seconds in a reclining configuration. The limit for a human on a bike is around 1000 watts, or ~1.3 HP, for a few seconds. Most adults can manage 300-400 watts for a short time - a few minutes. I would agree that Armstrong can likely produce 1/4 HP continuously.

Makes sense.

Measuring human output seems difficult because of fatigue. Take this guy for example,



squatting 1050lbf. I did another rough estimation of power output assuming he only moved the weight about 2ft in 1 second, and ignoring the down-stroke. This yields:

$$\dot{W}=\frac{1050lbf*2ft}{1sec}=3.8hp$$

Even that guy cannot perform like that for more than a few seconds.

 

[h2oski1326]

Calling 100 - 500, 300, is a pretty wild approximation. For example, it could easily be closer to 100 most of the time, with only short bursts of 500.

The video described it as 'cyclical' which I interpreted to be close to sinusoidal, which I think could be close based on what I saw in the video. Never claimed it was not a very rough estimation.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The video described it as 'cyclical' which I interpreted to be close to sinusoidal, which I think could be close based on what I saw in the video.

That assumption seems a bit of a stretch based on the information we have. You really need to integrate the load cell measurements to have any useful information beyond the upper and lower boundaries.

Still, given that he was using both his arms and legs, your approximation may not be out of the ballpark.

 

[h2oski1326]

That assumption seems a bit of a stretch based on the information we have. You really need to integrate the load cell measurements to have any useful information beyond the upper and lower boundaries.

Still, given that he was using both his arms and legs, your approximation may not be out of the ballpark.

A ballpark is all I was after, it may be way off, without data it is hard to know.

 

[nismaratwork]

Hmmm, let's just call it another nail in the coffin... it may not be exact, but it's orders of magnitude away from the claim. That's what matters most in this case... and thanks by the way.

 

[FizixFreak]

Makes sense.

Measuring human output seems difficult because of fatigue. Take this guy for example,



squatting 1050lbf. I did another rough estimation of power output assuming he only moved the weight about 2ft in 1 second, and ignoring the down-stroke. This yields:

$$\dot{W}=\frac{1050lbf*2ft}{1sec}=3.8hp$$

Even that guy cannot perform like that for more than a few seconds.

You bring up a good point and that is fatigue humans can only produce that about of power in short bursts of energy well i think that the movement(squat) might have been more than two feet and one more thing is that this guy brings the weight down quite slowly before moving it upwards my question is that preventing 1050lbs to accelerate at the rate of 9.8m/s^2 would also require a lot of work to be done (am i right?) is it enough to be included here? and of course if we do include it here the time duration and distance traveled will also be effected which will alter the answer by a considerable amount.

About the guy pulling the truck wouldn't it be more accurate to measure the power in terms of work done against the force of friction? just asking.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

About the guy pulling the truck wouldn't it be more accurate to measure the power in terms of work done against the force of friction? just asking. [/SIZE]

How would you measure the force due to friction?

 

[FizixFreak]

How would you measure the force due to friction?

To move an object lying on a surface one must apply force on it against the force of friction so...,the force applied multiplied by distance moved equals work done which divided by time duration equals power right

As for the first question i think i neglected this

and ignoring the down-stroke

 

[Ivan Seeking]

To move an object lying on a surface one must apply force on it against the force of friction so...,the force applied multiplied by distance moved equals work done which divided by time duration equals power right

... and how would you measure that force in practice? If you wanted to measure the force due to the rolling friction of the truck, how would you do it?

 

[FizixFreak]

... and how would you measure that force in practice? If you wanted to measure the force due to the rolling friction of the truck, how would you do it?

force of friction(kinetic/static)=coefficient of kinetic/static friction multiplied by normal reaction force

Assuming the truck moved with uniform(that can be a wild assumption though) velocity
force applied = force of friction

force applied to move the truck with uniform velocity+force applied to start the motion=total force applied

I see its not as simple as i thought i see that my method is looking a little awkward and may be non sense:shy:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

force of friction(kinetic/static)=coefficient of kinetic/static friction multiplied by normal reaction force

Assuming the truck moved with uniform(that can be a wild assumption though) velocity
force applied = force of friction

force applied to move the truck with uniform velocity+force applied to start the motion=total force applied

I see its not as simple as i thought i see that my method is looking a little awkward and may be non sense:shy:

My point is, wouldn't you do it with a load cell either in compression or tension? They ARE measuring the rolling friction. If one was to integrate the load cell values over time [and distance] and average, you should get the work done to overcome rolling friction + the work done to accelerate the truck to the average rolling speed.

 

[FizixFreak]

My point is, wouldn't you do it with a load cell either in compression or tension? They ARE measuring the rolling friction. If one was to integrate the load cell values over time [and distance] and average, you should get the work done to overcome rolling friction + the work done to accelerate the truck to the average rolling speed.

Thanks now i see the convenience of high tech gadgets why go through such a messy process when you can do it with cool stuff like with the help of a load cell thanks again buddy and i think i should stick to general discussion only!

About the down stroke(for the guy squatting) do you think that is considerable?

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks now i see the convenience of high tech gadgets why go through such a messy process when you can do it with cool stuff like with the help of a load cell thanks again buddy and i think i should stick to general discussion only!

About the down stroke(for the guy squatting) do you think that is considerable?

It would be, but from what I've seen powerlifts pretty much drop the weight once they've hit the mark. In training, sure, but not for a single massive lift...

...that's at least partly why you have spotters (people to catch falling weight) in cases where it could be dangerous to the lifter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thanks now i see the convenience of high tech gadgets why go through such a messy process when you can do it with cool stuff like with the help of a load cell thanks again buddy and i think i should stick to general discussion only!

No need to leave. If you aren't familiar with the technology you would have no way to know. But it is true that aside from the lunging aspect of his motion, pulling or pushing the truck with an intervening load cell is probably as good a way as any to measure rolling friction. With a good data sample rate the lunging shouldn't be a problem. The total work done on the truck should be the same either way.

 

[FizixFreak]

No need to leave. If you aren't familiar with the technology you would have no way to know. But it is true that aside from the lunging aspect of his motion, pulling or pushing the truck with an intervening load cell is probably as good a way as any to measure rolling friction. With a good data sample rate the lunging shouldn't be a problem. The total work done on the truck should be the same either way.

Thanks Ivan and i am glad to know that the points i made were not invalid 202HP ahhhhhhhh...,what was i thinking.

Nismar i see that the guy is bringing down the weight pretty slowly after watching this i think i need to come down even slower when i am squatting but then again including the down stroke will make calculation much more complicated and we don't necessarily have to be 100% accurate we are just looking for a estimate here any ways thank for the explanation.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks Ivan and i am glad to know that the points i made were not invalid 202HP ahhhhhhhh...,what was i thinking.

Nismar i see that the guy is bringing down the weight pretty slowly after watching this i think i need to come down even slower when i am squatting but then again including the down stroke will make calculation much more complicated and we don't necessarily have to be 100% accurate we are just looking for a estimate here any ways thank for the explanation.

No problem, I'm mostly working from info originating with books from DanP. I think your point about accuracy is correct though... when the man in question's claims are orders of magnitude off reality, absolute precision is not necessary.

 

[DanP]

One thing which hit me during this week is that humans love Circus. Many humans seems to get their minds in a knot when they see a circus feature like a truck pull, and stare in awe at the perceived strength.

Too few seems to be impressed by Olympic sports nowadays. Because the tremendous forces and power output developed by those athletes is not easy to see. Too few realize for example that a highly ranked triple jumper may generate forces in excess of 400 kgf with a single leg in the moment of take-off, in extremely short periods of time. It just doesn't look impressive.

I believe that anyone which wishes to see awesome displays of power, it should look at Olyimpic sports. A clean and jerk in weightlifting develops most power displayed in a sporting movement against a significant resistance. A snatch is the fastest lift against a significant resistance. Sprinters develop enormous forces during acceleration phases of their runs. At tremendous speeds. I mentioned other track and field athletes like jumpers before. Look at the forces absorbed during player collisions in handball or football. At landing phases following a jump. At the sharp direction changes at high speeds during a sport game. At the power developed by a boxer's punch.

If you want to get a glimpse to the very frontier of human performance, cease watching Circus and focus on Olympic sports and professional sports.

 

[ThomasEdison]

People are comparing Olympic and record breaking lifts to random people lifting cars or helicopters with trapped people underneath and that's incorrect to do. There are very strict rules for how a lift executes in official and recorded competitions.

Leverage counts for a lot and so does rolling.

A person lifting a car however they can is not the same as an Olympic deadlift. A random person could probably lift considerably more than they could in an official setting just by being able to place their feet and hands in whatever manner helps them ; an Olympic athlete doesn't get that choice when competing; he would be disqualified. Its apples and oranges.

 

[DanP]

People are comparing Olympic and record breaking lifts to random people lifting cars or helicopters with trapped people underneath and that's incorrect to do. There are very strict rules for how a lift executes in official and recorded competitions.

Leverage counts for a lot and so does rolling.

A person lifting a car however they can is not the same as an Olympic deadlift. A random person could probably lift considerably more than they could in an official setting just by being able to place their feet and hands in whatever manner helps them ; an Olympic athlete doesn't get that choice when competing; he would be disqualified. Its apples and oranges.

You don't get my point, and there exist no such thing as an "Olympic Deadlift". The biggest dispalys of powers are in Olympic sport. Period.

A random person could probably lift considerably more than they could in an official setting just by being able to place their feet and hands in whatever manner helps them ;

You didn't lifted anything in your life, aint it ? (that's a statement. Not a question) Maybe except a book. Thats OK.

Ok, Ill consider you a "random man". Be my guest, lift "considerably more" the a WL record overhead from the floor by placing your feet and hands in any freaking way you desire. You will realize, much to your surprise, that cleaning the weight and jerking is the way in which the most weight can be moved overhead from floor.

I always tell ppl, lifting your poetry books overhead doesn't count as a lift. What a sick joke, an average person lifting "considerably more" then an olympic weightlifter, just by positioning your feet and hands different.

Why don't you try it ? Half the weight those ppl move would put you into an hospital. Please doit. Then talk again and share the experience with us. Place your feet and hands any way you want. On what planet do some humans live ? Somewhere where cows fly me thinks.

 

[Antiphon]

We need to trap an olympic athlete's child under a helicopter to see what's really possible.

 

[ThomasEdison]

You don't get my point, and there exist no such thing as an "Olympic Deadlift". The biggest dispalys of powers are in Olympic sport. Period.



You didn't lifted anything in your life, aint it ? (that's a statement. Not a question) Maybe except a book. Thats OK.

Ok, Ill consider you a "random man". Be my guest, lift "considerably more" the a WL record overhead from the floor by placing your feet and hands in any freaking way you desire. You will realize, much to your surprise, that cleaning the weight and jerking is the way in which the most weight can be moved overhead from floor.

I always tell ppl, lifting your poetry books overhead doesn't count as a lift. What a sick joke, an average person lifting "considerably more" then an olympic weightlifter, just by positioning your feet and hands different.

Why don't you try it ? Half the weight those ppl move would put you into an hospital. Please doit. Then talk again and share the experience with us. Place your feet and hands any way you want. On what planet do some humans live ? Somewhere where cows fly me thinks.

I think you missed the point.
On uneven ground with a car halfway falling down a trench and a person is trapped underneath (plus cars have wheels so what could be considered a lift could even be part roll) and the person lifting only has to lift a few inches to get the person trapped out.. yes that person probably can lift what would be an extreme amount in different circumstances..it isn't weight for weight. It doesn't matter that the car in that circumstance weighs more than the weights in record breaking competitions. The two situations can not be compared because they are not the same.



Merely having the ground uneven or at different angles for footing changes leverage. A person can choose how they gain leverage in a non official setting. An olympic athlete competing can not choose to lift starting with one foot 8 inches higher (example) because it is planted on a hill of uneven dirt or start wedged under an object with one foot planted behind him kicking against something for purchase.

This does not discredit what a power lifter does ; but what a person rolling over a car or helicopter does. They aren't the same circumstances. Only the exact same lift can be compared to the exact same lift.

Ergonomically they are different.

 

[DanP]

I think you missed the point.
On uneven ground with a car halfway falling down a trench and a person is trapped underneath (plus cars have wheels so what could be considered a lift could even be part roll) and the person lifting only has to lift a few inches to get the person trapped out.. yes that person probably can lift what would be an extreme amount in different circumstances..it isn't weight for weight. It doesn't matter that the car in that circumstance weighs more than the weights in record breaking competitions. The two situations can not be compared because they are not the same.
Merely having the ground uneven or at different angles for footing changes leverage. A person can choose how they gain leverage in a non official setting. An olympic athlete competing can not choose to lift starting with one foot 8 inches higher (example) because it is planted on a hill of uneven dirt or start wedged under an object with one foot planted behind him kicking against something for purchase.

This does not discredit what a power lifter does ; but what a person rolling over a car or helicopter does. They aren't the same circumstances. Only the exact same lift can be compared to the exact same lift.

Ergonomically they are different.

No one contests they are different. But you claim that a random person can lift more than a weightlifter by placing their hand and feet differently.

You cant. Get a grip on reality. Try it. Try to lift a barbel overhead from floor, or any other objects, placing your hands and feet in any way you want. Use the leverage of your body in any way you want. You will fail to lift half the weight those man and women lift. Enough with theory.

And BTW, powerlifting in not an Olympic sport. Weightlifting is.