Can the International Community Prevent Catastrophe in Libya?

[Newai]

That's funny. Debbie Schlussel, an attorney, commentator, and blogger, calls him "Muammar “MC Hammer” Qaddafi."

 

[lisab]

That's funny. Debbie Schlussel, an attorney, commentator, and blogger, calls him "Muammar “MC Hammer” Qaddafi."

"MQ Hammer"

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Libyan east hails "freedom"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/24/us-libya-protests-idUSTRE71G0A620110224

Libyan opposition reportedly seizes key western city
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-fg-0224-libya-mideast-protests-20110224,0,431198.story

 

[Newai]

"MQ Hammer"

Please Muhammer, don't hurt 'em!

 

[russ_watters]

Well... it seems Ghaddafi (who I will now refer to as, "that son of goats") ordered ANOTHER bombing of Benghazi, and the pilot/crew punched out and crashed their jet(s?) into the desert.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/2...otests-libyas-interior-minister-quits/?hpt=T1

That's pretty hard-core: Before you even get to worry about Ghaddafi's minions finding you and killing you slowly, you have to wonder about the reliability of your 50-year-old ejection seat and the likelihood of injury even if it does work right!

 

[russ_watters]

Everyone seems obsessed with overthrowing Gadhafi but what about the Libya's future and its people? Will they be better off (with respect to Libya's economy and social reforms) without Gadhafi?

Ultimately, I guess they decided that the complete unknown of what comes after, with hope for an improvement, makes it worthwhile to try to overthrow him. Of course it's a gamble, but the gamble must be worthwhile enough that not only are they willing to risk their future, but they are willing to risk their very lives right now.

I have yet to see a convincing case of the likelihood of Libya improving without him.

Convincing? Have you seen any case, convincing or otherwise?

However, no one seems to be concerned about the future.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The whole point of a revolution - any revolution - is to attempt to make the future better.

 

[rootX]

Convincing? Have you seen any case, convincing or otherwise?

I am convinced that
1) current government is the better for Libya

From the article I posted yesterday (http://www.iai.it/pdf/mediterraneo/GMF-IAI/Mediterranean-paper_08.pdf ), it seems like Gaddafi's son is the best person to lead the country. He is educated from west and hods a Phd in economics. He is also very passionate about modernizing Libya while not so in getting the seat of his father.

2) there is very less likelihood that getting rid of Gaddafi would make Libya a better place.

Knowing that Libya has many different tribes, I believe there will long term instability if Gaddafi is ousted. These tribes look not so eager about modernization and there are differences among them.I have not seen anything in the media discussing Libya's future without Gaddafi which makes me wonder if there's any bright future.

 

[russ_watters]

I am convinced that
1) current government is the better for Libya

Better than what? In order to make that determination, you have to predict with some veracity what form of government they will have in the future and what level of development it will lead to. How can you possibly know this?

From the article I posted yesterday (http://www.iai.it/pdf/mediterraneo/GMF-IAI/Mediterranean-paper_08.pdf ), it seems like Gaddafi's son is the best person to lead the country.

How can an article that doesn't discuss the alternative that is being pursued tell you that that alternative is inferior to another path?

It doesn't appear to me that you have much regard for freedom. Have you considered the possibility that Libyans consider freedom itself to be an improvement in their condition worth accepting a lower economic and stability condition?

 

[rootX]

Better than what? In order to make that determination, you have to predict with some veracity what form of government they will have in the future and what level of development it will lead to. How can you possibly know this? How can an article that doesn't discuss the alternative that is being pursued tell you that that alternative is inferior to another path?

I have two points not just one. The article provides a slight hope and mentioned the Gaddafi's son is eager to bring reforms. The articles does not consider alternatives. I evaluated alternative in my point 2.

It doesn't appear to me that you have much regard for freedom. Have you considered the possibility that Libyans consider freedom itself to be an improvement in their condition worth accepting a lower economic and stability condition?

I value stability, economic growth, and social reforms (e.g. literacy, health care) more than freedom.

 

[russ_watters]

I have two points not just one. The article provides a slight hope and mentioned the Gaddafi's son is eager to bring reforms. The articles does not consider alternatives. I evaluated alternative in my point 2.

Ok, fair enough.

I value stability, economic growth, and social reforms (e.g. literacy, health care) more than freedom.

Fair enough. Setting aside that their priorities/criteria for defining "better" might be different than yours, have you considered the possibility that freedom can lead to those other things?

 

[rootX]

Fair enough. Setting aside that their priorities/criteria for defining "better" might be different than yours, have you considered the possibility that freedom can lead to those other things?

That's where we need an expert's opinion.

Questions like following are quite difficult to answer and media is not focusing on them:
If ousting Gaddafi will lead to a free Libya?,
If freedom can lead to stability, social and economic reforms in Libya?,
How long it will take to have positive outcomes?

 

[nismaratwork]

That's pretty hard-core: Before you even get to worry about Ghaddafi's minions finding you and killing you slowly, you have to wonder about the reliability of your 50-year-old ejection seat and the likelihood of injury even if it does work right!

Agreed... Someone has a sore (compressed spine) back. Still, it's one hell of a statement to make!

@rootX: It doesn't matter anymore; Qaddafi's central power is broken, and that won't be coming back. He seems driven to start a civil war, and is making decent inroads in that direction. This is what happens when autocrats are used as corks to stopper the vestiges of European colonialism.

This isn't about a free Libya, it's about an oscillation back from an unnatural and unsustainable state.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I am convinced that
1) current government is the better for Libya

Are there more than two people on this planet who are convinced??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

If ousting Gaddafi will lead to a free Libya?

How could it be worse than current Hitler-madness?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

"Muammar “MC Hammer” Qaddafi."

"MQ Hammer"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8flIbqvQ7Eo

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Libya's resigned Minister of Justice Mustafa Mohamed Abud Al Jeleil has proof that http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expressen.se%2Fnyheter%2F1.2341759%2Fkassem-hamade-om-motet-med-exministern%3FstandAlone%3Dtrue%26textStrl%3D1".

The former Minister of Justice also said he believed Mr. Gaddafi’s days were numbered:

– Mr. Gaddafi's days are numbered. He will do what Hitler did - he will kill himself.​

This is also consistent with what I heard a professor of psychology saying. Gaddafi has a severe narcissistic personality disorder and megalomania, and when this 'glorious picture' starts to crackle – he can’t handle it... Auf wienerschnitzel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhQkhJnfnGI

 

[cobalt124]

Can't find a link but I seem to remember reading years ago that Gadaffi received psychiatric help in Egypt. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[mugaliens]

This is also consistent with what I heard a professor of psychology saying. Gaddafi has a severe narcissistic personality disorder and megalomania...

Have you ever heard of a dictator who didn't?

 

[nismaratwork]

How could it be worse than current Hitler-madness?

Hitler would be worse... definitely... Qaddafi really is much more like Mussolini... may he find as pleasant a death as that man.

 

[nismaratwork]

Have you ever heard of a dictator who didn't?

I'd say Mubarak, the Saudi royal family, Jordan's family, etc. The Idi Amin/Qaddafi's are rarer than you'd think; they tend to self-destruct.

There are interesting theories about Qadaffi being a psychopath, but that his behaviour and speech changed after the bombing of Al-Aziziyah. You can be meglomaniacal and narcissistic, without being a Meglomaniac or a Narcissist... to truly have those personality disorder from youth and through 42 yearrs of rule is... interesting.

Remember, it makes him determined, but it also means his view of reality is fundamentally skewed; such people often rely on cronies for some stability.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I'd say Mubarak, the Saudi royal family, Jordan's family, etc. The Idi Amin/Qaddafi's are rarer than you'd think; they tend to self-destruct.

Agree, thanks nismar. There’s always "varying degrees of hell".

 

[nismaratwork]

Agree, thanks nismar. There’s always "varying degrees of hell".

I live to serve.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

he looks a bit like will ferrell in this video lol
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/02/23/mann.gadhafi.reflection.cnn

 

[lisab]

he looks a bit like will ferrell in this video lol
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/02/23/mann.gadhafi.reflection.cnn

He seems drugged.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm totally down with the female bodyguard thing

 

[rootX]

US response:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12575206

On Thursday, Mr Obama telephoned French President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, UK Prime Minister David Cameron and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to co-ordinate a response to the Libya crisis.

Analysis on post-Gaddafi era:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12569902

Libya's best hope may lie in these figures, who in conjunction with representatives from other walks of Libyan life may be able to smooth the way after Gaddafi.

It seems like it is of interest to European countries to bring order to Libya as soon Gaddafi dies.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

he looks a bit like will ferrell in this video lol
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/02/23/mann.gadhafi.reflection.cnn

Yup Megamind

 

[mugaliens]

It seems like it is of interest to European countries to bring order to Libya as soon Gaddafi dies.

Here's an idea: How about European countries and the U.s. bring order to Libya before Gaddafi does. If he beats us to the punch, he lives. If not, I'll visit him in person and ask why he renig'd on a promise he made to a fair maden in our own country. Long story, but it's real. Her brother died in the Lockerbie bombing, and she met with the man a couple years ago.

Sorry, gal. I never wanted to play this card.

The card, however, has been played. Gaddafi? Are you willing to hold true to your word back then with respect to helping establish world peace?

Or are you going to fall on the age-old, countless-lives-wasted, necromonger way of violating life for Science Fiction/Islam/modern footage/reality TV/whatever...

GROW UP, People. I could care less whether it all should fall into my lap. It's not into my lap into which it should fall.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... Gaddafi? Are you willing to hold true to your word back then with respect to helping establish world peace? ... GROW UP, People. I could care less whether it all should fall into my lap.

What on Earth are you talking about?

 

[Astronuc]

Everyone seems obsessed with overthrowing Gadhafi but what about the Libya's future and its people? Will they be better off (with respect to Libya's economy and social reforms) without Gadhafi? I have yet to see a convincing case of the likelihood of Libya improving without him. However, no one seems to be concerned about the future.

I heard an interesting comment this morning. It's seems that Benghazi is function much better under the anti-Gadhafi forces than under the old regime. So it appears there his hope and expectation that Libya will be much better for the people without Gadhafi.

The rebellion apparently started in Benghazi, perhaps inspired by events next door in Egypt.

 

[Astronuc]

Need we say more?

[PLAIN]http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7690/besttuesdays3.jpg[/QUOTE] His secret wish is to be a Hershey's kiss.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

It's seems that Benghazi is function much better under the anti-Gadhafi forces than under the old regime. So it appears there his hope and expectation that Libya will be much better for the people without Gadhafi.

Definitely, in Benghazi people are singing and dancing in the streets, in ecstatic joy. I’ve heard people are taking care of their own neighborhood; it’s much cleaner now than before. Foreign journalist are welcomed with open arms, and are offered free food and free staying at hotels.

I guess they are like most people – tired of accelerating mental disorders in the leadership...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ThlAzZYL8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg-2ZD1EYe0

 

[nismaratwork]

His secret wish is to be a Hershey's kiss.

Then I think he should be drowned in a vat of boiling chocolate... feet first.

 

[Newai]

His secret wish is to be a Hershey's kiss.

Ooh, the kind with the nut inside!

 

[nismaratwork]

Ooh, the kind with the nut inside!

How old am I? So old that I had to stop and remember Kisses come with almonds now. How old is that?... not old enough that I should have to stop and remember that Kisses come with almonds now.