China-Japan Soccer Rivalry: World Cup Consequences?

[The Smoking Man]

Chinese people in my opinion are "trained" to say that they love their country... this is does not take away the fact that some of them live in an element of fear and insecurity. But I think that is their problem to deal with. This does not give anyone the right to judge their country. It's like a left hander telling a right hander that they are stupid, or weird, or wrong. Being "right handed" does not mean "right" in the context of "right and wrong".

I've been visiting here since '97 and living here for two years now.

The people here are least fearful of their government than any I have known.

The police don't even carry guns.

High security bank vans have security guards armed with rubber bullets and beanbag guns.

Ecconomically, the government hardly interferes with business as long as your taxes are paid.

Tell me what you see to fear here. I even feel nothing about walking the streets of Shanghai with a months wages in my pocket at midnight. Can you say the same for New York?

 

[Smurf]

My discussion was about communism in general and Russian communism and German nazism are the main ones I was referring to over the past century.

Right, because they're exactly the same.

Hitler was a socialist. National Socialist German Workers Party to be specific (which is where the term nazi comes from). I heard that Hitler and Stalin were cozy before Hitler double-crossed him and invaded russia. Stalin was hurt by this, or so I heard in some WWII documentary. If I am wrong, please correct me, don't attack me, for I am only relaying what I have heard, read or watched. This thread has been somewhat of a learning experience, actually.

Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

In Short: Yes, you're wrong. Very wrong.

Longer: Hitler was not socialist, even by the diluted western political meaning of the term, he was certainly not Marxist by a long shot. If you've read any of Hitler's publications, even Mein Kampf than you'll know that Hitler had fully planned to invade the soviet union as part of Lebensraum. Hitler and Stalin were worst enemies. When they signed a non-aggression pact in 1939 it completely shocked the world, but as we now know, it broke down in under a year and half when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. I don't know what you mean by 'Stalin was hurt by this' but the first few months of the war were very favorable for the Germans, until the battle of Stalingrad was won by the Russians and the Winter set in. After that the Germans were continuously being pushed back.

Hitler's use of the word socialist in his party name was entirely propoganda to gain support from the center-lefties who didn't quite want to vote communist. He promised quite a few socialist institutions that he never implemented and when his only socialist minister started bickering about it, he was killed during the night of the long knives.

You should check out our ww2 thread where me and boys are making historical commentary.

Maybe I shouldn't lump all communist countries or ideologies together into one mold, but when you don't know of the difference between them, can I be blamed for asking? I've never taken communism 101 and I dropped my international politics class.

OKAY! CRASH COURSE IN COMMUNISM!

1. You first have to realize that Communism is extremely controversial and everyone has their own opinion on what it is and should be. Also, every communist political leader in history has left behing his own distinct form of Communism, each quite different from each other and from their common route: Marxism.

2. Socialism, in Marxist theory, is an economic and political system where most of the state power and production is controlled by popular collectives. In Marxist theory a state is supposed to evolve into a Socialist state and then from socialist into a communist state (utopia). Socialism is not Communism. Socialism has stayed a lot more true to it's original Marxist ideals than the term Communism, which has been highjacked time and time again so that these dictators can use it to gain support for their revolutions. However, that's not to say that socialism isn't a loaded term as many a times that term has been used to describe something non-Marxist as well.

Additional Reading:
Marxism
Leninism
Stalinism
Trotskyism
Maoism
Socialism
Ahhh, just for the sake of it.
Green Anarchism

There, that should keep you busy for a while. Get to learning 'bout good 'ol communism boy!

 

[The Smoking Man]

Right, because they're exactly the same.Okay Orwell. You just touched on my sweet spot, and you're rubbing it the wrong way. teeheehee

Oh, lay off him ... I think he still believs that Christians follow the teachings of Christ too.

Like ... how naive can you be?

 

[Smurf]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

 

[selfAdjoint]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

 

[Archon]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

If by preconceptions you mean his belief in the fact that Hitler wasn't a socialist in any meaningful sense of the word, then I don't see a problem. If Hitler doesn't fit the definition of "socialist," then he wasn't a socialist. I could just as easily call Bush a socialist, because the U.S. government does sponser certain socialistic programs. He doesn't quite fit the defintion, but close enough, right?

 

[The Smoking Man]

He Called Hitler Socialist! And it wasn't in the I-dare-you sort of way people usually say it just to piss socialists off.

Yeah ... well like I said earlier, it is easier to point out that there are more 'socialist programs' in western democratic countries than there are in 'communist nations'.

For example ... when Nike opens a sweat shop in some province in China, do you think the people there have the right to a 'Union'?

If you're sick in China, do you have the right to 'Universal Health Care'?

If you lose your job, are you entitled to state support?

NOPE, Nope and Nope.

This is in fact why it is that the USA builds factories here.

They are actually AVOIDING social programs that cut into the bottom line.

Other things are ... Building regs, zoning, reduced controls such as EPA guidlines, avoiding Chinese import tarriffs (Taxation that is paid to the Chinese govt.) etc.

America is more socialist than Nazi Germany ever was and China IS.

 

[Smurf]

Hitler called his party the National Socialists. "Nazi" is just a shortened form of the German words for that. The fact that real historical cases don't conform to the pristine definitions in your head shouldn't caause you frenzy, but it should cause you to examine your preconceptions.

Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and he didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modeled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

 

[selfAdjoint]

Actually Hitler's party was "National Socialist German Workers Party" (NSDAP) and didn't take any part in naming it at all.

Hitler first discovered the party when he was still a Corporal in the Army. Army intelligence sent him to investiage the Actions of the German Workers Party (DAP), but he was impressed by the party and joined as member 555 (which is pretty funny if you consider the superstition about 666). Hitler wanted to rename the party and proposed "Social Revolutionary Party", but this was early and the party still had it's own goals outside of supporting Hitler as the Fuhrer. They insisted they continue to follow the path of the Austrian party Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei after whom they were modeled, so they renamed themselves National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) at the suggestion of a Rudolf Jung, an Austrian Marxist who was also an influencial member of their Austrian counterpart. He died of starvation in Prague's Pankrác prison.

'Nazi' started as slang. It came about from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialist but spelled <zi> because the syllable <ti> is pernounced <tsi> and people thought it looked cooler if you spelled it with a <z>

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

 

[The Smoking Man]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

LOL ... Did Tony Blair change the name of the british Labour party when he made it conservative? Nope ... Just stuck a 'new' in front of it.

 

[Smurf]

I stand corrected. And did Hitler then, after the night of the long knives, when he got rid of a lot of the old party members, then change the name of the party because he didn't want to be identified as a socialist?

No, the National Socialist German Workers Party kept the name through it's entire life. But "Nazi" was inducted as a shorter form of the word, which was used much more frequently.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Just to reinforce the idea that this is NOT just a 'http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/asia_liberation_day associated with this article to see how Japanese ultra rightists celebrate 'surrender'.

Asia Marks Anniversary of Japan Surrender

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press Writer
15/08/2005

Still stinging with anger and sorrow, Asians on Sunday marked the 60th anniversary of Japan's World War II surrender by honoring their dead, burning Rising Sun flags and demanding compensation amid rekindled tensions over Japanese abuses.

The occasion inspired a rare joint commemoration by North Korea and South Korea, and spurred protesters in Hong Kong to burn Japan's flag and march on Tokyo's consulate chanting "Down with Japanese imperialism!"

In the Philippines, elderly women once forced to act as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers renewed demands for compensation and apologies. Former Australian prisoners of war returned to the Thai jungles where they labored under brutal conditions to build the notorious Death Railway.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050814/ap_on_re_as/japan_war_shrine

Japan PM Warned Not to Visit War Shrine

By HANS GREIMEL, Associated Press WriterSun Aug 14, 4:13 PM ET

A key ally of Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi warned the leader Sunday not to visit a shrine that honors Japan's 2.4 million war dead, saying it would further undermine Japan's fragile ruling coalition as it heads into nationwide elections.

The caution came as a former Japanese premier and the country's current economy and trade minister worshipped at Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, amid mounting speculation Koizumi will also pray there as early as Monday to mark the 60th anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II. A visit by Koizumi would almost certainly enrage China and South Korea, as convicted war criminals are among those honored at the shrine.

Further visits will only damage ties between Koizumi's Liberal Democratic Party and its ruling coalition partner, the New Komeito Party, especially in the run up to nationwide ballots on Sept. 11, New Komeito head Takenori Kanzaki warned Sunday.

"The LDP and New Komeito increasingly feel we should go for the majority. But if Koizumi goes, it will dampen that spirit," Kanzaki said on TV Asahi's Sunday Project news talk show. "It can't have good results for our campaign coordination."

Yasukuni honors Japan's deaths in wars from the late 1800s until 1945. But the shrine also lists among its "deities" the names of executed World War II criminals, such as wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, and many in Asia believe the memorial glorifies Tokyo's imperialist past.

Koizumi has pledged to make annual visits to the shrine and has been there four times since becoming prime minister in April 2001. His last visit was in January 2004, and many Japanese officials, including Cabinet members, were expected to pay respects Monday.

Thehe Japanese state that 'the Shrine is intended to honour the Japanese killed in battle'.

1068 of the people enshrined there were executed after the war for crimes against humanity.

They were NOT killed in battle.

Where war criminals are venerated

Tuesday, January 14, 2003 Posted: 12:08 AM EST (0508 GMT)

The Yasukuni Shrine is dedicated to about 2.5 million people who have died in Japan's conflicts between 1853 and 1945.

Their names are inscribed in the shrine's Book of Souls, and venerated as "gunshin", or war gods.

In 1978, 1,068 convicted war criminals, among them executed wartime prime minister Hideki Tojo and 13 other Class A war criminals, were secretly enshrined there.

The shrine's authorities are reluctant to accept the verdict of war crimes tribunals, and history.

"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."
...
"Owing to the meritorious services of the spirits of the deities worshipped, the nation enjoys peace and security," the shrine explains on its website.

It's sick.

 

[outsider]

I can see why China is so upset. I don't think the Nazis would've gotten away with this.

"War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors," explains a pamphlet published by the shrine, aimed at children.

Referring to the convicted war criminals, the pamphlet says: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here."

 

[The Smoking Man]

Here is an excellent example of the Japanese status of 'http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050823/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawar_050823074803 '

For further background on the 'contest':

The Nanjing "Murder Race"


Extracts from Harold Timperley's What War Means, London: V.Gollancz (1968)

________________________________________

On December 7, 1937, the Japan advertiser, an American-owned and edited English-language daily paper in Tokyo, published the following item:

SUB-LIEUTENANTS IN RACE
TO FELL 100 CHINESE
RUNNING CLOSE CONTEST

Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Takeshi Noda, both of the Katagiri unit at Kuyung, in a friendly contest to see which of them will first fell 100 Chinese in individual sword combat before the Japanese forces completely occupy Nanking, are well in the final phase of their race, running almost neck to neck. On Sunday when their unit was fighting outside Kuyung, the "score", according to the Asahi, was: Sub-lieutenant Mukai, 89, and Sub-lieutenant Noda, 78.

On December 14, 1937, the same paper published the following additional report:

CONTEST TO KILL FIRST 100 CHINESE
WITH SWORD EXTENDED WHEN BOTH
FIGHTERS EXCEED MARK

The winner of the competition between Sub-lieutenant Toshiaki Mukai and Sub-lieutenant Iwao Noda to see who would be the first to kill 100 Chinese with his Yamato sword has not been decided, the Nichi Nichi reports from the slopes of Purple Mountain, outside Nanking. Mukai has a score of 106 and his rival has dispatched 105 men, but the two contestants have found it impossible to determine which passed the 100 mark first. Instead of settling it with a discussion, they are going to extend the goal by 50.

Mukai's blade was slightly damaged in the competition. He explained that this was the result of cutting a Chinese in half, helmet and all. The contest was "fun", he declared, and he thought it a good thing that both men had gone over the 100 mark without knowing that the other had done so.

Early Saturday morning, when the Nichi Nichi man interviewed the Sub-lieutenant at a point overlooking Dr. Sun Yat-sen's tomb, another Japanese unit set fire to the slopes of Purple Mountain in an attempt to drive out the Chinese troops. The action also smoked out Sub-lieutenant Mukai and his unit, and the men stood idly by while bullets passed overhead.

"Not a shot hits me while I am holding this sword on my shoulder", he explained confidently.

C h i n a N e w s D i g e s t
Europe/Pacific Regional News (CND-EP, No. EP97-015) August 1, 1997

 

[Daminc]

Bl**dy hell!

 

[The Smoking Man]

Bl**dy hell!

Here is the link to the http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM5.gif . I can't believe the families tried to sue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050823/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawar_050823074803

In the runup to the notorious Nanjing massacre, a Japanese newspaper reported in 1937 with the tone of a sports story that two army lieutenants played a game on who would be the first to decapitate 100 Chinese soldiers.

The story was meant to boost morale in wartime Japan, but relatives of the two lieutenants, who were later executed, filed a lawsuit in 2003 saying the article was false.

Tokyo District Court Judge Akio Doi rejected the suit, saying, "The lieutenants admitted the fact that they raced to kill 100 people."

"We cannot deny that the article included some false elements and exaggeration, but it is difficult to say the article was fiction not based on facts," Doi told the court.

"Since a final historical assessment on whether the contest of killing 100 people has not yet been made, we cannot say (the article) was obviously false," he said.

Relatives of the two lieutenants sought a total of 36 million yen (330,000 dollars) in compensation from two newspapers: the Mainichi Shimbun, the forerunner of which ran the 1937 story, and the liberal Asahi Shimbun, which in 1971 ran an article saying the contest had taken place.

The Tokyo Nichinichi Shimbun, which later became the Mainichi Shimbun, ran the article with the headline, "Super record 100 cut down: Mukai at 106 vs Noda at 105. The two lieutenants go into a playoff."

It was referring to lieutenants Toshiaki Mukai and Tsuyoshi Noda, who were later executed by an Allied tribunal over the Nanjing massacre.

The plaintiffs included Chieko Mukai, the daughter of Toshiaki Mukai, who said the report was "groundless" and had tainted the two families' reputation.

 

[Daminc]

Humans are so inventive

Don't you find it odd that we're (collectively) capable of such things?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Humans are so inventive

Don't you find it odd that we're (collectively) capable of such things?

Beheadings or suing over the articles?