Cindy Sheehan Arrested at White House Protest

[Smurf]

Sounds like a violation of freedom of speech. Don't you Canadians have any rights?

Not to me.. why?

And how in gods name would they need a warrent? Those need to be signed by judges. By the time you get one, the protest would probably be gone.

In Canada police can get warrants over the phone. They're called telewarrants. This would be a perfect example of when they could be used.

But at least we have firmly established here that she was breaking the law and that getting a permit does not infringe on your freedom of speech.

We havn't actually...

And what kinda sidewalk can handle 2 full grown people laying down? Man the world must be supersized outside of my city.

It's only that big on one street... The others can be substantially smaller. Then again, I havn't seen the whole city yet, there might be bigger ones too.

 

[MaxS]

The Patriot Act was legislation. Courts rule upon legislation once a case is brought up. Jesus, did you ever take any high school government classes? Do you even realize the countless other things that, at face value, are infringements, but everyone has realized is ok since the governing of 300,000,000 people is not easy when you take everything at absolute face value?

Yes I did take some high school government classes.

They taught me that the most important things that make america so special are the preamble to the declaration of independance, which guarantees me life, liberty, and happyness, and the bill of rights of the U.S. constitution, which protects my right to life, liberty, and happyness.

This means that any legislation, body, entity, or person that seeks to impede upon the bill of rights or the constitution is comitting treason and seeking to limit my ability to pursue those 3 key aspects mentioned in the preamble.

Perhaps you skipped class on that day, my feathered and ignorant amigo.

 

[Pengwuino]

Two points:

1. We certainly have NOT established that it does not infringe on our freedom of speech.

2. In DC it is QUITE EASY TO WALK AROUND THE SIDEWALK BY USING THE GIGANTIC GRASS LAWN RIGHT NEXT TO IT!

You have brought nothing but emotional rhetoric to this argument. Thus, we have established both of my points to be correct while you have simply yelled out your unfounded opinions

If anyoen wants to take a look via google's satellite program... you can see the fence (aka big grassy area, ha)

 

[Pengwuino]

In Canada police can get warrants over the phone. They're called telewarrants. This would be a perfect example of when they could be used.

Holy crap are you serious? Man.. if they tried that in the US, people would be going nuts.

We havn't actually...

Denial is a waste of time... you cannot deny it... you are under my control.

It's only that big on one street... The others can be substantially smaller. Then again, I havn't seen the whole city yet, there might be bigger ones too.

I have hte hugest street in my city. You can practically drive 100mph while drunk and not hit anything on the side of the road. Pretty awesome.

 

[MaxS]

?? We must be talking about two different parts of the white house because where I was, there was a big line to go take a closer look and tour of the white house (though not inside it), and this line was on the grass lawn, because on the sidewalk there was protest of some sort. It was very easy to walk around it however.

 

[Pengwuino]

Perhaps you skipped class on that day, my feathered and ignorant amigo.

Oh so you just took a single day of it? No wonder you don't understand. It's ok... many people out there haven't graduated high school so you're not alone.

 

[MaxS]

... so in other words you've completely retreated from your attack on my civil liberties and sunk to attacking my character?

 

[Smurf]

If anyoen wants to take a look via google's satellite program... you can see the fence (aka big grassy area, ha)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/whitehouse-0015.jpg

Now, forgive me if I'm just an ignorant Canadian and this is some other white house... But those sidewalks look damn big. Bigger than here in nanaimo, easily two people - hands outstretched. maybe even 4.

 

[Huckleberry]

The Patriot Act was legislation. Courts rule upon legislation once a case is brought up. Jesus, did you ever take any high school government classes? Do you even realize the countless other things that, at face value, are infringements, but everyone has realized is ok since the governing of 300,000,000 people is not easy when you take everything at absolute face value?

Sorry, I'm not willing to give up my rights to make governing this country any easier. They are my rights and I am going to keep them and excersice them whenever I please. It is the government's job to protect my rights and not infringe upon them for the sake of convenience. If the government can't do that then they are not serving the purpose they were created for and should be replaced.

This situation is very simple. Was she harrassing people or infringing on anyone elses rights? If not, then she shouldn't have been arrested. The charge that they have against her of protesting without a permit is unconstitutional because we are guaranteed the right to freedom of speech.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Requiring a permit violates this amendment because a permit is neither free nor unrestricting. A permit abridges our first amendment.

 

[Pengwuino]

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/whitehouse-0015.jpg

Now, forgive me if I'm just an ignorant Canadian and this is some other white house... But those sidewalks look damn big. More than enough for two full grown humans to lay down across... 3 even.

Yah... i measured it at 10yards... With a few dozen people... anyone have pictures of what this actually looked like? I Mean they could have all been sitting on the edge... or they could have been jumbled up.

I just was thinken based off my own sidewalk which ... well it barely can handle 2 people standing up!

 

[MaxS]

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/whitehouse-0015.jpg

Now, forgive me if I'm just an ignorant Canadian and this is some other white house... But those sidewalks look damn big. Bigger than here in nanaimo, easily two people - hands outstretched. maybe even 4.

Ah, looking at that picture I have indeed surmised that I was on the complete opposite side of the white house LOL. (Or they opened up the fence so people could stand in line to take a tour.. this was well before 9/11. They don't even allow tours of the white house anymore).

 

[Pengwuino]

... so in other words you've completely retreated from your attack on my civil liberties and sunk to attacking my character?

Perhaps you skipped class on that day, my feathered and ignorant amigo.

Yes, I alone have sunk to personal attacks. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

[MaxS]

I addressed the issue and then insulted you, you just abandoned the issue and ran with the insult.

Besides, all I did was call you ignorant as to the purposes of the bill of rights (which you obviously are).

You made some idiotic statement about me not having a high school diploma...

 

[Pengwuino]

Ah, looking at that picture I have indeed surmised that I was on the complete opposite side of the white house LOL.

See that's what I am talking about. Whenever it hink "protest infrotn of the white house"... in that exact spelling... I think of people posting lil flyers or banners on the gate at the north side. I think they do that because the oval office has a direct view of the gate on that side of the grounds.

 

[Pengwuino]

I addressed the issue and then insulted you, you just abandoned the issue and ran with the insult.

No, you ignored the issue and started attacking. Bad form.

 

[Smurf]

Ah, looking at that picture I have indeed surmised that I was on the complete opposite side of the white house LOL. (Or they opened up the fence so people could stand in line to take a tour.. this was well before 9/11. They don't even allow tours of the white house anymore).

Yeah, actually most of the pictures of the whitehouse I saw were of the other side, which has about 4x as much park to it, so there may very well be no fence (or rather only a fence further in).

 

[pattylou]

It seems she wanted to be arrested for peacefully protesting - It seems she wanted to spark this kind of energy - the exact debate you guys are having.

I don't feel sorry for her, or upset with the government. She knew the rules, and played them so that she'd be arrested. The cops knew and played too.

I oppose the war, and I hope this action gets some people thinking about the war if they aren't ... but really my main response to the whole thing today is:

 

[MaxS]

Man, YOU Are ignoring the issue by continuing this idiocy,

THIS ARGUEMENT IS ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S CHARGE TO PROTECT MY CIVIL LIBERTIES.

It has not fulifilled its duty. Indeed it has passed legislation attempting to retract many of my rights (and yours too, if you would just open your eyes).

 

[Smurf]

So... was I the only one that looked at the actual front of the white house?

 

[MaxS]

No, you ignored the issue and started attacking. Bad form.

Uh and I didn't ignore the issue, I stated a very clear argument which you chose to completely ignore.

 

[Pengwuino]

It has not fulifilled its duty. Indeed it has passed legislation attempting to retract many of my rights (and yours too, if you would just open your eyes).

I think I am the only one here realizing there have been rights that have been infringed upon for the last 2 centuries. How can one be so ignorant as to think that people should be allowed to do absolutely anything and everything they want to do without an insignificant bit of restraint?

Hell what if I wanted to protest the government by not paying taxes? What if everyone did it? Government collapses, the country collapses.

Protest by parking my car in the middle of Interstate 5? Tremendous traffic jam, possible accidents, possible loss of life.

Yell fire in a crowded theatre? Well I think most of the people here know the answer here!

Are you people just so naive as to think that society can run in anarchy?

 

[Pengwuino]

So... was I the only one that looked at the actual front of the white house?

Fool! Who uses the front of buildings?

But no really, they use the back side because the oval office has a view of it as far as I can tell. Unless you want to protest the secretaries of the white house... the back is better.

Uh and I didn't ignore the issue, I stated a very clear argument which you chose to completely ignore.

Incorrect. Your argument was emotionally charged rhetoric that has no basis in reality.

 

[Smurf]

Fool! Who uses the front of buildings?

But no really, they use the back side because the oval office has a view of it as far as I can tell. Unless you want to protest the secretaries of the white house... the back is better.

I don't know, I don't think there'd be much of a response from Bush. I thought the point was to gain other people's attention... so the front would be better.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't know, I don't think there'd be much of a response from Bush. I thought the point was to gain other people's attention... so the front would be better.

Well I guess the only reason protestors use that side is because it may get more traffic? I dunno...

 

[pattylou]

Pretty sure she chose the side that would get her arrested (ie had a narrow sidewalk.)

 

[Huckleberry]

Hell what if I wanted to protest the government by not paying taxes? What if everyone did it? Government collapses, the country collapses.

Protest by parking my car in the middle of Interstate 5? Tremendous traffic jam, possible accidents, possible loss of life.

Yell fire in a crowded theatre? Well I think most of the people here know the answer here!

Are you people just so naive as to think that society can run in anarchy?

Most of these things violate other people's rights. As the government does not have the authority to violate your civil rights, you do not have the authority violate the rights of other civilians. I think that is just common sense.

 

[MaxS]

Incorrect. Your argument was emotionally charged rhetoric that has no basis in reality.

This was my arguement:

Yes I did take some American Government classes

They taught me that the most important things that make america so special are the preamble to the declaration of independance, which guarantees me life, liberty, and happyness, and the bill of rights of the U.S. constitution, which protects my right to life, liberty, and happyness.

This means that any legislation, body, entity, or person that seeks to impede upon the bill of rights or the constitution is comitting treason and is seeking to limit my ability to pursue those 3 key aspects mentioned in the preamble.

------

Does that look like emotionally charged rhetoric to you?

If what I said there has no basis in reality, maybe you would be better off living in North Korea.

 

[deckart]

This was my arguement:

Yes I did take some American Government classes

They taught me that the most important things that make america so special are the preamble to the declaration of independance, which guarantees me life, liberty, and happyness, and the bill of rights of the U.S. constitution, which protects my right to life, liberty, and happyness.

This means that any legislation, body, entity, or person that seeks to impede upon the bill of rights or the constitution is comitting treason and is seeking to limit my ability to pursue those 3 key aspects mentioned in the preamble.

------

Does that look like emotionally charged rhetoric to you?

If what I said there has no basis in reality, maybe you would be better off living in North Korea.

So, what are you doing about it?

 

[hitssquad]

Max,

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence...
http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

...not in the Preamble to the Constitution.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html

 

[JamesU]

I have to agree with Max.

...or the right of the people peaceably to assemble...

she was peacfully assembling. just because she has some signs doesn't make it any different. she had every right to be there.

Max,

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence...
http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

...not in the Preamble to the Constitution.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html

he said the preamble to the declaration of independance

 

[russ_watters]

MaxS, the bottom line here is that you are unwilling to accept the fact that all rights have limits, even the right to freedom of speech. Whether in this specific case, the protester stepped over the line isn't really important to whether or not such a line exists. And it does (and must) exist.

 

[JamesU]

when did she 'step over the limits'? when does protesting by sitting on a sidewalk with signs harm anybody in any way? we were even taught in school: 'if I wanted to go outside the White House and peacefully protest, without hurting anybody, it would be perfectly legal'

 

[pattylou]

The charge was obstructing the flow of (foot) traffic...

Or words to that effect.

IMU there was a group of people, not just one woman, and several were arrested, not just Cindy.

 

[Pengwuino]

Most of these things violate other people's rights. As the government does not have the authority to violate your civil rights, you do not have the authority violate the rights of other civilians. I think that is just common sense.

And how isn't the permitting process common sense? What if (and this has happened before, many times) two groups want to protest at hte same place? What if people would like to actually drive their cars or walk along the sidewalk and all of a sudden your blocking their way? Invading their rights as well! Yes, this is common sense. Permitting is common sense.

 

[Pengwuino]

when did she 'step over the limits'? when does protesting by sitting on a sidewalk with signs harm anybody in any way? we were even taught in school: 'if I wanted to go outside the White House and peacefully protest, without hurting anybody, it would be perfectly legal'

Yes its legal but you need a permit because you are obstructing traffic. Many protests normally have to have the streets blocked off so you get a permit which informs the city that you will need the streets blocked... less you want to get run over or make people late for work.