Dating for Nerds: A Shy Guy's Guide to Meeting Women

[27Thousand]

Correct, but for worth while ideas.

You're not saying human relationships are not worthwhile? Please tell me there's a misunderstanding here.

You keep posting random graphs and then go on to say that you want to tweak it by "adding calculus in" or "adding <insert random branch of math> in" which doesn't even make sense, showing you don't understand the math behind what you are attempting to say.

I have a minor in Statistics. I hope you're not saying the various curve-fitting techniques they teach you in Statistics are false. Keep in mind it's brought much success to the field of economics and other areas. It's also being developed into a field called Mathematical Psychology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_psychology"
http://www.mathpsyc.uni-bonn.de/tutorials.htm"

Although many in the field of Psychology don't pay attention to it (yet), it was the same way for Newton. Tons of people were thinking of applying mathematics to the natural world and some were successful in some situations, but Newton went out and made it wide spread and rocked the joint. Why not do the same with flirting? Remember, many of the great people throughout history said innovation is only so much inspiration and mostly actually carrying it out and persistence. If I really drive that part for flirting strategies?

 

[27Thousand]

Some food for thought, didn't Isaac Newton say that mathematical models would eventually be applied to human beings and how they think? If we all put effort toward these models, wouldn't that be dedicating this effort to a good cause, praising Isaac Newton? He's our friend. That would seem appropriate for a place called PhysicsForums, you know what I'm saying?

 

[27Thousand]

then go on to say that you want to tweak it by "adding calculus in" or "adding <insert random branch of math> in" which doesn't even make sense, showing you don't understand the math behind what you are attempting to say.

Something you may not have considered, statisticians are constantly finding even better methods for curve fitting with data, just because one says they may try tweaking the details of the math doesn't mean they don't understand.

Even with the many many standard curve fitting techniques, those who make mathematical models still will tweak certain details by adding other things to it.

If I don't do that, even if my equation works well don't you think you'd probably just dismiss it saying I used statistical techniques and so I should have been original instead, even if it turns out to be a useful equation? Newton took other peoples' ideas which already existed, combined them together, and tweaked them, until he got some significant outcomes. It's a must to get critics to turn a way.

 

[Galteeth]

One note about foreign girls visiting: This is a very challenging demographic! For some reason, the "attractive european foreigner" seem to ring some subconscious sexual whistle for men. These girls are getting hit on all the time. Go for it, but don't be discouraged if it doesn't work out. (This also applies for American girls visiting foreign countries.)

 

[whs]

You're not saying human relationships are not worthwhile? Please tell me there's a misunderstanding here.

I have a minor in Statistics. I hope you're not saying the various curve-fitting techniques they teach you in Statistics are false. Keep in mind it's brought much success to the field of economics and other areas. It's also being developed into a field called Mathematical Psychology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_psychology"
http://www.mathpsyc.uni-bonn.de/tutorials.htm"

Although many in the field of Psychology don't pay attention to it (yet), it was the same way for Newton. Tons of people were thinking of applying mathematics to the natural world and some were successful in some situations, but Newton went out and made it wide spread and rocked the joint. Why not do the same with flirting? Remember, many of the great people throughout history said innovation is only so much inspiration and mostly actually carrying it out and persistence. If I really drive that part for flirting strategies?

I never said the contrary. I'm sorry you assumed all of the above.

Good luck.

 

[Moonbear]

Some food for thought, didn't Isaac Newton say that mathematical models would eventually be applied to human beings and how they think? If we all put effort toward these models, wouldn't that be dedicating this effort to a good cause, praising Isaac Newton? He's our friend. That would seem appropriate for a place called PhysicsForums, you know what I'm saying?

Mathematical models are applied to human behavior. They're used for things like marketing research. The MAJOR FLAW in your ideas that you keep overlooking or ignoring or refusing to accept is that models describe POPULATION behavior, NOT individual behavior. If you have a minor in statistics, you should understand the difference between populations and individuals in data sets. You should also understand that means that while you might be able to predict that in a large crowd, roughly a percentage of people will act in a particular way to a particular situation, the models will NOT tell you WHICH people will act that way.

The work I did for my Ph.D. involved studies of animal behavior where I had a LOT more control over variables than in a typical population of humans, and I still could not guarantee a particular male or female would act in a specific way at a specific time given a specific stimulus. I could only tell you within a 95% confidence interval that a particular behavior would happen more often in response to a particular stimulus than if that stimulus was not present. This is a great thing in a setting like an animal breeding program where we don't care that one specific cow is going to breed at a particular time to a particular bull, but rather that out of an entire herd of cattle, we'll get MORE cows to breed to at least one of the bulls with a particular treatment than if we do nothing.

So, if you want to set up a dating service, and you figure out that some particular thing is going to improve successes of matches, then that's a great use of a mathematical model of behavior. But, if you think you're ever going to have 100% success on the first try every time, or that you can walk into a bar and spot THE ONE PERFECT woman to ask out, who is guaranteed to accept your offer, you're off on a wild goose chase. You're more likely to have success in getting a date if you go out to places where women congregate and start asking them out than if you waste all your time obsessing over some mathematical model. You're also more likely to get them to KEEP going out with you if you DON'T bore them silly or irritate them with harping over your mathematical model when talking with them.

 

[Pyrrhus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k0xgjUhEG3U&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k0xgjUhEG3U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I saw this a few minutes ago, and it reminded me of this thread

 

[GeorginaS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k0xgjUhEG3U&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k0xgjUhEG3U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I saw this a few minutes ago, and it reminded me of this thread

That's perfect!

 

[DaveC426913]

I saw this a few minutes ago, and it reminded me of this thread

And that, my icosaheptakilofriend, is a portryal of a person with Asperger's.

 

[GeorginaS]

And that, my icosaheptakilofriend, is a portryal of a person with Asperger's.

That's a clip from a fairly popular teevee show, is it not? Surely they don't have a character on the show who mocks someone with Asperger's. Or, I don't know. I'm asking, not asserting anything.

I just know that Zoobyshoe suggested Asperger's, and 27Thousand has repeated on almost every thread I've seen him on lately about wanting to write some sort of formula for reading body language and social situations with women.

 

[Galteeth]

That's a clip from a fairly popular teevee show, is it not? Surely they don't have a character on the show who mocks someone with Asperger's. Or, I don't know. I'm asking, not asserting anything.

I just know that Zoobyshoe suggested Asperger's, and 27Thousand has repeated on almost every thread I've seen him on lately about wanting to write some sort of formula for reading body language and social situations with women.

Most likely, the character is not specifically suppossed to have asperger's but is rather a composite of popular stereotypes about nerds, some of which are based on actual people with aspergers. Thus, yes, the show is mocking people with asperger's in this particular clip, but the writers are probably not aware of it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

And that, my icosaheptakilofriend, is a portryal of a person with Asperger's.

Hmmm. The broad stroke is right, some important details are not. The character has a non-Aspergery gay edge to his speech patterns, which is out of left field (It could happen, but it's not typical). Additionally, while he's on the phone he frequently casts pointed glances at his friends which say "Are you following? See how this works?" Autistic Spectrum people just don't get that kind of non-verbal communication; they avoid eye contact, and they have no idea how to use it to send unspoken signals. Thirdly, this character gets the give and take of conversation too well and lacks the talk-your-ear-off uninterruptability of a real Aspie. So I think Galteeth's analysis of what you're looking at is spot on.

re: icosaheptakilofriend, I met a guy with Asperger's a couple months ago who specializes in making colored cardboard models of arcane geometric shapes. I wish I could videotape him talking about his hobby and put it on youtube but I doubt he'd agree to act as a specimen.

 

[BobG]

You're also more likely to get them to KEEP going out with you if you DON'T bore them silly or irritate them with harping over your mathematical model when talking with them.

What lousy dating advice. You're suggesting he should change his personality to fit whatever personality his prospective date likes!?

He might have better long term success if he does explain his mathematical model to them and only dates women that find his model interesting.

I'm using the same strategy, except with leaving the toilet seat up. Sooner or later, I'm sure I'll find a woman that actually likes it when men leave the toilet seat up. After all, according to this poll, 30% of people leave the entire seat up. Surely there's at least one woman among that 30%.

(Actually, that poll is disturbing, since only 3% close the lid before flushing. 97% of people couldn't care less about sending atomized particles of urine & fecal matter floating into the air where it can gently settle on their toothbrush, towels, faucet handles, counter tops, etc.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

(97% of people couldn't care less about sending atomized particles of urine & fecal matter floating into the air where it can gently settle on their toothbrush, towels, faucet handles, counter tops, etc.)

THANKS! Now I'm going to have to curl up in a ball and shout speeches from the Henry plays till that image leaves my head.

 

[physics girl phd]

I'm using the same strategy, except with leaving the toilet seat up. Sooner or later, I'm sure I'll find a woman that actually likes it when men leave the toilet seat up. After all, according to this poll, 30% of people leave the entire seat up. Surely there's at least one woman among that 30%.

Gee Bob... you just need to install a bidet... maybe it's own small closet where it's away from the toothbrushes.

 

[BobG]

Gee Bob... you just need to install a bidet... maybe it's own small closet where it's away from the toothbrushes.

I hate it when people say my name backwards.

 

[Moonbear]

What lousy dating advice. You're suggesting he should change his personality to fit whatever personality his prospective date likes!?

Nope, he doesn't have to change his personality, but if he doesn't, he's going to continue to have very slim chances of finding one of those incredibly rare women who would actually be entertained by his babbling over mathematical models of dating. If he wants to hold out for one of those, he need not worry about his mathematical model either, since even if he had one that worked, it would just keep telling him, "Nope, not that one either, keep looking."

 

[BobG]

Nope, he doesn't have to change his personality, but if he doesn't, he's going to continue to have very slim chances of finding one of those incredibly rare women who would actually be entertained by his babbling over mathematical models of dating. If he wants to hold out for one of those, he need not worry about his mathematical model either, since even if he had one that worked, it would just keep telling him, "Nope, not that one either, keep looking."

You know what's really, really disturbing? I figured I'd do a search to find out what percentage of Americans liked statistics since I think it's kind of presumptious to just assume that women that like statistical models are a rare phenomenum.

The very first (and presumably most relevant page) informed me that 26.2% of all Americans over the age of 18 suffer from some kind of mental disorder every year.

 

[DaveC426913]

What lousy dating advice. You're suggesting he should change his personality to fit whatever personality his prospective date likes!?

No. It is not his personality that's at issue. It is his undiagnosed disorder that's at issue. He needs help to acquire the social interaction skills to interact with society.

 

[DaveC426913]

Most likely, the character is not specifically suppossed to have asperger's but is rather a composite of popular stereotypes about nerds, some of which are based on actual people with aspergers. Thus, yes, the show is mocking people with asperger's in this particular clip, but the writers are probably not aware of it.

You need to watch the show to get the context. In other scenes, he is utterly obvlious to certain types of human interaction. The character is definitely afflicted, but you're right, it's more of a blend of disorders, not a particular one.

The writers are very aware of what they're portraying.

Hmmm. The broad stroke is right, some important details are not. The character has a non-Aspergery gay edge to his speech patterns, which is out of left field (It could happen, but it's not typical).

There's no gay element; his speech patterns are just sit-commishly exaggerated.

Additionally, while he's on the phone he frequently casts pointed glances at his friends which say "Are you following? See how this works?" Autistic Spectrum people just don't get that kind of non-verbal communication; they avoid eye contact, and they have no idea how to use it to send unspoken signals.

As mentioned, in other instances he most definitely exhibits the kind of obliviousness to human interaction that is commoin in mild Aspies.

Thirdly, this character gets the give and take of conversation too well and lacks the talk-your-ear-off uninterruptability of a real Aspie. So I think Galteeth's analysis of what you're looking at is spot on.

He is a "high-functioning" Aspie.

BTW, the show is hilARious and catchy. Everyone I talk to says the same thing.

 

[Math Is Hard]

THANKS! Now I'm going to have to curl up in a ball and shout speeches from the Henry plays till that image leaves my head.

Please let me know if that works.

 

[DaveC426913]

97% of people couldn't care less about sending atomized particles of urine & fecal matter floating into the air where it can gently settle on their toothbrush, towels, faucet handles, counter tops, etc.)

The Mythbusters busted this one.

The tootbrushes in their test rooms showed just as much (and in some cases, more) e. coli bacteria on them as the toothbrushes in their test bathroom.

 

[Galteeth]

re: icosaheptakilofriend, I met a guy with Asperger's a couple months ago who specializes in making colored cardboard models of arcane geometric shapes. I wish I could videotape him talking about his hobby and put it on youtube but I doubt he'd agree to act as a specimen.

There are plenty of videos on youtube of people with AS if people want an idea of what it is.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There are plenty of videos on youtube of people with AS if people want an idea of what it is.

Thanks! I didn't think of that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There's no gay element; his speech patterns are just sit-commishly exaggerated.

Listen again: there's a distinctly effeminate edge to his intonation.

As mentioned, in other instances he most definitely exhibits the kind of obliviousness to human interaction that is commoin in mild Aspies.

I'll take your word that he's more extreme in the other episodes, but even in this clip this character isn't mild at all. Even his nerdy friends think he's weird.

In real life, most people with Asperger's seem totally normal at first. It takes at least a minute or two of talking to them before you start feeling, "This person is a bit odd", and a lot longer than that before you think to yourself "No, he very odd" I don't think anyone who got their picture of Asperger's from this character would ever be able to pick one out in real life.
------------------------------------
Thanks to Galteeth I found a true example of "mild" Aspergers to show you:

http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/2008/05/another-youtube-video-on-aspergers.html

 

[DaveC426913]

Listen again: there's a distinctly effeminate edge to his intonation.

I interpret as it more "snide and sneering". You've got to allow for the fact that, as a sit-com, certain traits are greatly exaggerated and demodramatic. Melodramatic speech patterns are a common hack in gay cliches.

I'll take your word that he's more extreme in the other episodes, but even in this clip this character isn't mild at all. Even his nerdy friends think he's weird.

Yes, his friends think he's weird all the time. He is. It's just that he's less about the "stuck inside his own head" than the other traits. (Stuck inside his own head would not make for a very intersting sitcom character).

You've got to be careful, having seen only one example of the character, to not jump to conclusions what is due to ASD and what is not. Sheldon is wearing a long-sleeved shirt under a t-shirt but you don't assume that's a representation of Asperger's, right?

 

[Evo]

People with Aspergers have trouble reading emotions from facial signals that most people easily pick up on. They tend to avoid eye contact. I dated, well, I tried to date a guy with Aspergers. He needed "escape routes" for when he got overwhelmed, couldn't handle much face to face contact, had to keep up a lot of barriers, finally he just couldn't do it. He'd never been able to have a relationship. Such a great guy, so much to offer, just couldn't handle an actual relationship. He couldn't deal with anyone. No friends, barely able to stay employed except for the fact he had a rare skill that they needed, but he was an outcast at work.

 

[DaveC426913]

People with Aspergers have trouble reading emotions from facial signals that most people easily pick up on.

Much of Sheldon's comedic repertoire is about utterly missing obvious human interaction.

No friends, barely able to stay employed except for the fact he had a rare skill that they needed, but he was an outcast at work.

I read an article some time ago that suggested Asperger's may be a lot more comon that suspected - that the modern cliche of the friendless, socially-stunted IT whiz guy may have some merit to it. That these guys might be more than merely stunted, they may have a mild form of ASD.

 

[Evo]

I read an article some time ago that suggested Asperger's may be a lot more comon that suspected - that the modern cliche of the friendless, socially-stunted IT whiz guy may have some merit to it. That these guys might be more than merely stunted, they may have a mild form of ASD.

He can program in K, something very few can do.

 

[Astronuc]

I dated, well, I tried to date a guy with Aspergers.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22464&stc=1&d=1260728326

 

[Galteeth]

Much of Sheldon's comedic repertoire is about utterly missing obvious human interaction.



I read an article some time ago that suggested Asperger's may be a lot more comon that suspected - that the modern cliche of the friendless, socially-stunted IT whiz guy may have some merit to it. That these guys might be more than merely stunted, they may have a mild form of ASD.

I'm not sure who said it, but there's the famous quote "The problem with stereotypes is that they're often true." I'm glad I can actually tie this back into the main topic.

I have met "nerds" who were very much like this character, socially stunted and even with that same manner of speech (I wouldn't characterize it as effeminate exactly, there isn't the drawal, it's more defined by over-enunciation of consonants). My general impression of these types was that while they performed well academically on some things, like math, and had very serious study habits, they weren't truly "geniuses" in the sense that they had difficulty with abstract and subtle concepts. Not only would they miss obvious elements of social interaction (like people's intentions), they also struggled with things like literature and philosophy. I don't know if this is related to autistic spectrum per ce, but it is something I noticed. I recall that when I was younger, I often found a lot of the other kids in the gifted programs kind of odd. I was fairly odd too, but I mean "odd" in the sense that due to their confirmation to the stereotypes I felt I wouldn't really enjoy their social company.
I met a "nerd girl" a couple of years ago who was a math whiz, but after spending some time with her I found she made me a little uncomfortable because she had issues with respecting boundaries.

 

[27Thousand]

Mathematical models are applied to human behavior. They're used for things like marketing research. The MAJOR FLAW in your ideas that you keep overlooking or ignoring or refusing to accept is that models describe POPULATION behavior, NOT individual behavior. If you have a minor in statistics, you should understand the difference between populations and individuals in data sets. You should also understand that means that while you might be able to predict that in a large crowd, roughly a percentage of people will act in a particular way to a particular situation, the models will NOT tell you WHICH people will act that way.

The work I did for my Ph.D. involved studies of animal behavior where I had a LOT more control over variables than in a typical population of humans, and I still could not guarantee a particular male or female would act in a specific way at a specific time given a specific stimulus. I could only tell you within a 95% confidence interval that a particular behavior would happen more often in response to a particular stimulus than if that stimulus was not present. This is a great thing in a setting like an animal breeding program where we don't care that one specific cow is going to breed at a particular time to a particular bull, but rather that out of an entire herd of cattle, we'll get MORE cows to breed to at least one of the bulls with a particular treatment than if we do nothing.

So, if you want to set up a dating service, and you figure out that some particular thing is going to improve successes of matches, then that's a great use of a mathematical model of behavior. But, if you think you're ever going to have 100% success on the first try every time, or that you can walk into a bar and spot THE ONE PERFECT woman to ask out, who is guaranteed to accept your offer, you're off on a wild goose chase. You're more likely to have success in getting a date if you go out to places where women congregate and start asking them out than if you waste all your time obsessing over some mathematical model. You're also more likely to get them to KEEP going out with you if you DON'T bore them silly or irritate them with harping over your mathematical model when talking with them.

Something you may want to consider, as far as the group versus individual principles, there is single-subject ABA research design. Although it's criticized for not detecting cause-effect like randomized experimental-control does, if used right it's better at "describing" tendencies at the individual level if run through many many individuals. Combining research methods together let's you test it from different angles. Behaviorists have used single-subject ABA to come up with quite universal patterns on reinforcement schedules and factors affecting reinforcement effectiveness. In the hard sciences they'll use many different methods to test something, so I was thinking of looking at many different data sets to find patterns, then brainstorming what may affect individual differences and then maybe test it by watching individuals discretely in public areas (kind of like single-subject). I don't have the resources not being a researcher so I can't follow-up with experimental-control as stage 3, but maybe if I ever become a researcher I can.

Also, consider not all scientific mathematical models are deterministic, but some in the hard sciences are also stochastic and can also be applied in a sort of technology like way. If I come up with models which can give some fairly accurate probabilities given maybe 5 well thought out variables, maybe that can be used as a good starting point and let personal experience smooth out the edges of interacting with women skills.

There's much more than factor analysis and multiple regression that one can explore with statistical software, and maybe it may help me know which women to ask on dates? I mean, what if you were in my shoes? Wouldn't you want help?

 

[DaveC426913]

I mean, what if you were in my shoes? Wouldn't you want help?

Well, I for one have definitely been urging you to get help.

 

[27Thousand]

Well, I for one have definitely been urging you to get help.

I actually meant mathematical equations for dating. I guess some may accidentally see that as a double meaning.

At first it was intellectualizing it using principles in peer-review journals. Then some seemed doubtful that reading others through their body language was an important ingredient. So then on another thread I asked what made Science popular. One suggested math. I did research and found many historians think that's what separated Galileo and Newton from others, then the flash of insight on how to help myself with dating hit me like a lightning bolt! So if I spend hours practicing statistical computing programming language and acquire data sets, etc, my dating life can be normal!

 

[rolerbe]

There have been a lot of responses above, critical to the goal of mathematical modeling of individual behavior. In the case of building a 'date-o-meter', I agree. The goal for such a predictive model is certainly premature if ever possible.

But there is some serious and interesting work going on in this area for the development of new and better human-machine-interfaces. See for example http://affect.media.mit.edu/areas.php?id=understanding". Certainly just at the outset, but real efforts are being made. If this is an area you want to pursue, you are not alone, and not (necessarily) crazy or deficient.