Do other countries look at us and laugh?

[drankin]

You should never feel proud to be an American, you should be proud of something you accomplish, not something that you were born into; being an American isn't an accomplishment.

Hogwash, who are you to tell someone what they can be proud of? This is a free country, you can be proud of anything you damn well want to.

"You should never feel proud to be an American...", damn pride police! LOL

 

[Quincy]

Hogwash, who are you to tell someone what they can be proud of? This is a free country, you can be proud of anything you damn well want to.

"You should never feel proud to be an American...", damn pride police! LOL

I'm just saying that people should be proud of their accomplishments, not something they were just born into by chance. National pride (not just American pride) is irrational. You can say you're happy to be American/Irish/Chinese/Indian/etc, but proud is the wrong word to choose.

 

[russ_watters]

If you can be proud of your kids or your friends, you can be proud of your ancestors. Also, living in a free country means the freedom to leave and immigrants had the freedom to come here. These are personal choices that can be a source of pride. In addition, anyone who takes part in the electroral process or even just pays taxes has a direct hand in what the country as a whole is doing. We're members of a team and there is nothing wrong with having pride in your team.

 

[WhoWee]

The opposite of national pride is national shame. Unlike the Left Wing (and apparently Obama), most Americans are proud of their country.

 

[OmCheeto]

The opposite of national pride is national shame. Unlike the Left Wing (and apparently Obama), most Americans are proud of their country.

I suppose if one can only see things as either black or white, then this might be true. But some of us are capable of comprehending the various shades of grey in between.

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1641.html"

I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves … too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: ‘Our country, right or wrong!’ They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: ‘Our country—when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.’

I think it is the unqualified "I'm proud to be an American" which irks some of us. It's like saying "I'm proud to have 5 fingers on my left hand". It's totally meaningless, and reeks of shallowness.

 

[WhoWee]

I suppose if one can only see things as either black or white, then this might be true. But some of us are capable of comprehending the various shades of grey in between.

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1641.html"


I think it is the unqualified "I'm proud to be an American" which irks some of us. It's like saying "I'm proud to have 5 fingers on my left hand". It's totally meaningless, and reeks of shallowness.

My claim of "I'm proud to be an American" is not unqualified.

I am proud of my country for many things. I believe the United States has advanced civilization and improved the living standards for millions of people. The US is often the first responder to disasters and the leader in the fight to prevent hunger and disease.

I've posted this many times, we can't help anyone unless we are viable and strong - leaders lead, children dream, and babies cry.

 

[OmCheeto]

and babies cry.

Thank you for confirming my suspicion:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2009/06/custom_1245249209375_becksmaller_03.jpg

 

[WhoWee]

Thank you for confirming my suspicion:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2009/06/custom_1245249209375_becksmaller_03.jpg

[/URL]

It might be more productive for you to explain why you are ashamed (excuse me, not proud ) of your country.

 

[GeorginaS]

The opposite of national pride is national shame. Unlike the Left Wing (and apparently Obama), most Americans are proud of their country.

No. The opposite of "pride" is "humility", not shame. (Notwithstanding what some radio and teevee personalities will try to tell you.)

National pride/nationalism/patriotism are all forms of bigotry and unfounded self promotion. There's nothing wrong with admiring the accomplishments of your forerunners (who lived, by chance, within the parametres of an area of land delineated on paper by arbitrarily drawn non-existent lines) and believing in like-values as set out by them and continuing them.

So yeah, I have to agree with other people here: taking "pride" in a accident of birth is irrational.

 

[OmCheeto]

It might be more productive for you to explain why you are ashamed (excuse me, not proud ) of your country.

This thread is about laughing, not pride or shame. We've really gotten off topic.

BTW, you forgot http://www.colbertnation.com/the-co...451/may-13-2008/bill-o-reilly-inside-edition"...

If there is anything we are better at than most every other nation, it is laughing at ourselves.

With the exception of the British I suppose. The Python troop has no peers.

Perhaps the G20 conference should include that as a topic: "Freedom of comedians to point out the idiosyncrasies of ones own country without fear of repercussion from ones own government".

But that kind of implies a certain pride in my concept of our freedom of pointing out the truth. My bad.

 

[WhoWee]

Actually, this was in the first post "Is it possible for president Obama to impeach us? I wonder how high our approval rating is with the government. "

To this I ask, what has Obama DONE to make us proud of him?

Gitmo - still open.
Iraq - still fighting.
Afghanistan - the "good war" is now maybe not a good idea.
Global Warming - taxing us, raising utility rates, and leaving nuclear, coal and petroleum to others is the only option.
ACORN - not really a concern.
Stimulus - no time to read, yet only 13% of funds dispersed 6 months later.
Health care reform - insurance companies are the problem, not unfunded obligations of $100 trillion in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
Economy - Saved (and created - Government?) jobs counts (?), he saved us?
Iran - 2nd nuclear enrichment site identified.
CIA - re-opened investigation during a war.
Czars - Was Van Jones REALLY a Communist? Have the others been vetted?
Apology Tour - Now that Obama is President, we can be a good country.

 

[Integral]

Actually, this was in the first post "Is it possible for president Obama to impeach us? I wonder how high our approval rating is with the government. "

To this I ask, what has Obama DONE to make us proud of him?

Gitmo - still open.
Iraq - still fighting.
Afghanistan - the "good war" is now maybe not a good idea.
Global Warming - taxing us, raising utility rates, and leaving nuclear, coal and petroleum to others is the only option.
ACORN - not really a concern.
Stimulus - no time to read, yet only 13% of funds dispersed 6 months later.
Health care reform - insurance companies are the problem, not unfunded obligations of $100 trillion in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
Economy - Saved (and created - Government?) jobs counts (?), he saved us?
Iran - 2nd nuclear enrichment site identified.
CIA - re-opened investigation during a war.
Czars - Was Van Jones REALLY a Communist? Have the others been vetted?
Apology Tour - Now that Obama is President, we can be a good country.

Anybody who thought that Obama was going to fix all of our problems in a few weeks is delusional. It took Bush & Co. 8yrs to get us in the pile of Sh@t we are currently in. Obama, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have a hard time sitting things right, if it is even possible. So grow up and learn the meaning of patience.

 

[WhoWee]

Anybody who thought that Obama was going to fix all of our problems in a few weeks is delusional. It took Bush & Co. 8yrs to get us in the pile of Sh@t we are currently in. Obama, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have a hard time sitting things right, if it is even possible. So grow up and learn the meaning of patience.

Well I'm glad we can agree that it's too early for Obama to lay claim for any of his so-called "achievements" - aside from being elected and breaking campaign promises (Earmarks, Lobbying, line by line Bill negotiation, transparency).

 

[mheslep]

Actually, this was in the first post "Is it possible for president Obama to impeach us? I wonder how high our approval rating is with the government. "

To this I ask, what has Obama DONE to make us proud of him?

...

Plenty. I didn't support the guy in the campaign, disagree with most of all his policies now, but as an American I still can find much about the US President to be proud of. Obama calling Kanye West a 'http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/6196938/Kanye-West-Barack-Obama-jackass-tape-posted-by-TMZ.html" ' jumps out at the moment (not that the Pres should do that everyday but it seemed to slip out and I am happy to see he feels that way and has the gumption to say so).

 

[WhoWee]

Plenty. I didn't support the guy in the campaign, disagree with most of all his policies now, but as an American I still can find much about the US President to be proud of. Obama calling Kanye West a 'http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/6196938/Kanye-West-Barack-Obama-jackass-tape-posted-by-TMZ.html" ' jumps out at the moment (not that the Pres should do that everyday but it seemed to slip out and I am happy to see he feels that way and has the gumption to say so).

Well, you've got me there - and there WAS the beer summit.
http://www.google.com/search?q=beer...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[Jasongreat]

We want him to grow some cahunas and push this stuff through and let the right-wing whine all they want!

I think that's what a lot on the right want also, remember Clinton pushing through his assault weapons ban, how did that work out for the Left? If I remember right the next election saw the left loose their majority in congress, remember newt gingrich?

As far as the original thread goes, the only reason I could see other countries looking at us and laughing is, they see us trying to do the same things that have destroyed their own countries.

 

[Jasongreat]

Anybody who thought that Obama was going to fix all of our problems in a few weeks is delusional.

I agree but would go a little further and say anyone who believes a politician will fix a problem is delusional, the problem is their reelection ticket.

It took Bush & Co. 8yrs to get us in the pile of Sh@t we are currently in.

I also agree with this, however I hope you include the democrat majority congress of his two last years as part of the Co., as I do.

Obama, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have a hard time sitting things right,

I agree again, especially if he does exactly the same things Bush and Co did for the last eight years such as deficit spending, carrying on two wars, and bailing out big corporations.

if it is even possible. So grow up and learn the meaning of patience.[/

QUOTE]

What do you mean "if" it is even possible, they said when we elected them they would solve the problem. Are you implying politicians are liars? I wish our politicians would grow up and learn the meaning of patience also, the patience to read a bill before signing it, the patience to wait for all the data to come in before jumping to conclusions, the patience to allow proper vetting of a bill before voting on it, the patience to allow dissenting opinion into the discussions, and most of all the patience to pay off one debt before accumulating the next one.

 

[WhoWee]

Anybody who thought that Obama was going to fix all of our problems in a few weeks is delusional. It took Bush & Co. 8yrs to get us in the pile of Sh@t we are currently in. Obama, or anybody else for that matter, is going to have a hard time sitting things right, if it is even possible. So grow up and learn the meaning of patience.

Then you agree Obama should quit telling the world leaders about his "accomplishments" in the past 8 months?

 

[sylas]

Then you agree Obama should quit telling the world leaders about his "accomplishments" in the past 8 months?

That's a very odd comment on a couple of levels.

First, it is a complete non-sequitur. Integral notes that Obama can't solve all your problems immediately. That doesn't mean you haven't achieved anything, or that you shouldn't make any mention progress that has been made.

Second, it seems completely out of touch with what Obama is saying. Pretty every report I have seen of summits or meetings in which President Obama is involved has focused not on boasting about what has been done, but in emphasizing the problems and issue that are still ahead of you and the rest of the world.

So in brief. Of course you can speak of what has been achieved while at the same time recognizing there's still a lot more to do. The kind of negativity that refuses to recognize any steps until you've finished the walk would be ridiculous.

And unless you're getting radically different news from me, the major focus of what I've seen from the current administration at the international level continues to be one what is still to be done.

Felicitations -- sylas

 

[WhoWee]

That's a very odd comment on a couple of levels.

First, it is a complete non-sequitur. Integral notes that Obama can't solve all your problems immediately. That doesn't mean you haven't achieved anything, or that you shouldn't make any mention progress that has been made.

Second, it seems completely out of touch with what Obama is saying. Pretty every report I have seen of summits or meetings in which President Obama is involved has focused not on boasting about what has been done, but in emphasizing the problems and issue that are still ahead of you and the rest of the world.

So in brief. Of course you can speak of what has been achieved while at the same time recognizing there's still a lot more to do. The kind of negativity that refuses to recognize any steps until you've finished the walk would be ridiculous.

And unless you're getting radically different news from me, the major focus of what I've seen from the current administration at the international level continues to be one what is still to be done.

Felicitations -- sylas

Please read this news account.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33004755/ns/business-world_business/

"PITTSBURGH - World leaders on Friday issued sweeping promises to fix a malfunctioning global economic system in hopes of heading off future financial meltdowns. President Barack Obama said actions taken so far “brought the global economy back from the brink.”

“We leave here today confident and united,” Obama said at the conclusion of a two-day gathering of the world’s 20 top economies to deal with the worst financial crisis since the 1930s.

The leaders agreed to keep stimulus plans, which include government spending and low interest rates, generally in place in their respective countries for now to avoid derailing still-fragile recoveries. Obama had pressed for just such a course and praised the decision.

“Our coordinated stimulus plans played an indispensable role in averting catastrophe. Now we must make sure that when growth returns, jobs do, too,” he said at a wrap-up news conference. “That’s why we will continue our stimulus efforts until our people are back to work and phase them out when our recovery is strong.”

In a statement, all the G-20 leaders declared major progress from what they called their coordinated efforts and “forceful response.”

“It worked,” they said.

Although many of the pronouncements and actions taken by the leaders lacked specifics or details on follow-through, leaders were bold in pronouncing the gathering — the third G-20 summit in a year — as a big success.

“There was unanimity around the table that the errors of the past won’t happen again,” said French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

“The old system of international economic cooperation is over. The new system, as of today, has begun,” said British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, referring to a decision to enhance the status for the Group of 20 to make it the lead group for dealing with future international economic issues, eclipsing the older, Western-dominated Group of Eight.

“I have the impression that we are on a successful path,” said German Chancellor Angela Merkel, before leaving Pittsburgh to fly back to Berlin, where she faces German voters on Sunday.

They moved to require members to subject their economic policies to the scrutiny of a peer review process that would determine whether they were “collectively consistent” with sustainable global growth. They promised tighter and more coordinated financial regulation.

And, repeating pledges from G-20 summits in November and April, when financial panic was rampant, they vowed anew to “reject protectionism in all its forms.” They also went along with Obama’s push for a pledge to withdraw government subsidies from fossil fuels such as oil, coal and natural gas linked to global warming.

While issuing lofty vows, the leaders failed to define how to accomplish many of them and were quickly back to bickering over details.

They did not suggest, for instance, how the peer review process would be enforced. And they failed to mention that previous pledges to avoid protectionism had been ignored by nearly all 20 members.

Disagreements over whether China should gain voting strength in the International Monetary Fund at the expense of European nations and over global warming language marred the summit."

The report continues. However, when Obama talks about stimulus and jobs creation he fails to mention that TARP bailed out the banks, less than 20% of the stimulus funds in the US have been dispersed, many of the "saved jobs" can't be documented and many of the "created jobs" are Government positions.

 

[russ_watters]

I think it is the unqualified "I'm proud to be an American" which irks some of us. It's like saying "I'm proud to have 5 fingers on my left hand". It's totally meaningless, and reeks of shallowness.

Why do you assume peoples' pride in their country is unqualified?

 

[russ_watters]

No. The opposite of "pride" is "humility", not shame. (Notwithstanding what some radio and teevee personalities will try to tell you.)

According to dictionary.com, it only gives one antonym to "pride" and it is "humility", but it gives three antonyms to "shame": "pride, self-esteem, self-respect"...

...and if you go to the main thesaurus entry for "humility", you get this: "abasement, bashfulness, demureness, diffidence, docility, fawning, inferiority complex, lack of pride, lowliness, meekness, mortification, nonresistance, obedience, obsequiousness, passiveness, reserve, resignation, self-abasement, self-abnegation, servility, sheepishness, shyness, subjection, submissiveness, subservience, timidity, timorousness, unobtrusiveness, unpretentiousness"

So I'd say you are right that humility is an antonym of pride, but you are wrong that shame is not.

 

[OmCheeto]

Why do you assume peoples' pride in their country is unqualified?

Because few of them who say so know why. I've discussed it with many people, from many countries. It's a philosophical thing. Which is why tried to steer this thread back onto topic. GeorginaS had about the best answer I've ever seen to the off topic question. But I think one would have to understand Zen to understand her answer.

There are no borders. We made them up. There are no countries. We invented them. There is only us. To be prideful of something imaginary is to be, um, ...,

Sorry.

Can't find the word in the dictionary.

 

[russ_watters]

Because few of them who say so know why. I've discussed it with many people, from many countries.

Few people who are patriotic know why? I've discussed the concept with a lot of people too and I don't know that I've ever come across a person who was confused about why they were patriotic! But I have come across a lot of people who weren't patriotic who didn't understand the concept:

GeorginaS had about the best answer I've ever seen to the off topic question. But I think one would have to understand Zen to understand her answer.

There are no borders. We made them up. There are no countries. We invented them. There is only us. To be prideful of something imaginary is to be, um, ...

Just because we invented something, that doesn't make it imaginary. I'm quite certain my car exists and is a pretty solid concept! What you call "Zen" just sounds like nonsense to me. Honestly, it just sounds to me like you just don't want to accept/understand peoples' real opinions/positions about the concept.

 

[sylas]

Please read this news account.

The report does not correspond to what you described previously; a case of President Obama simply speaking of "his" accomplishments. The statements covered combined actions from the nations at the summit. And -- as I would expect and as I described previously -- there was a focus on what still needs to happen. Future actions were the introduction and the conclusion of the president's press conference remarks; and every mention of what has been achieved was followed with a greater amount of text focused on what is still to be done.

I stand by my previous remark; and this news story indicates that the real problem is not that you aren't reading the same stories; but that you only seem to see a fraction of what is there.

My previous post stands unmodified; and president Obama's press conference fits what I said previously. Here it is again:

(1) Of course you can speak of what has been achieved while at the same time recognizing there's still a lot more to do. The kind of negativity that refuses to recognize any steps until you've finished the walk would be ridiculous.

(2) Unless you're getting radically different news from me, the major focus of what I've seen from the current administration at the international level continues to be on what is still to be done.

Cheers -- sylas