Explore the Nature of Spirit - Questions & Answers

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
But, you've "nailed" me on one thing: I'm more interested in CONSCIOUSNESS than "spirit". Don't know why.

if you are really wanting to know my position on this subject read my post in A Conscious Universe?, that pretty much summerizes my position, but you should know, i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by maximus
i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

evidence might not be the right word choice here. ...if you give me convincing logical reasoning... or illogical, whatever... the point is it'll be tough.

 

[sage]

consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.see details of an experiment in my reply to the thread IS CONSCIOUSNESS DEFINED IN SCIENCE?

 

[Royce]

To expand on my previous post, despite any objections or denials, in a more cosmological note as implied by other post in this thread I submit the following. This is again my belief and opinion though I am not the only one that believes as I do.
The aspect of God that is the Holy spirit pervades the universe and is a part of it. It is in my opinion the source of the life force that is so strong and everywhere at least here on Earth as there is vertually no where on Earth that life is not abundant and prolific even thousands of feet down in the rocks. I also think of it as the guiding force that insures that the universe behaves. Possibly it is the source of universal consciousness that we talked about in the thread "Conscious Universe". It is IMO the thing that ties us and the universe all together and is at lest in my mind the One that the asian religions speak of. It is of course immaterial and outside of time. It is ubiquitous. Has force and can and does interact with the material universe. In my mind at least it is the unifying force that make it all happen and keeps it working the way that it is meant to.

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by sage
consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.

that's pretty much exactly what i said.

 

[Iacchus32]

From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2764&perpage=15&pagenumber=2" ...

Origincally posted by Iacchus32

Origincally posted by sage
Our brain gains knowledge by (1)memorizing events and facts and emotions associated with them and makes decisions by(2) comparing new events or facts with previous ones. But some degree of ‘hardwiring’ is done from birth.

It's our "conscious mind" (not brain) which does the comparing and making decisions. This is like comparing the difference between how a car functions, "properly," and what it takes to actually drive the car, which are two separate matters. In fact this is the very problem that exists with science. They are so busy caught up with how something works, that they lose sight of its actual function, which is just another fancy means of taking things out of context.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Actually, there is a distinction (in MY mind) about "spirit" and "spirits". The former (to me) is a POSSIBLE coherent system of SOMETHING that has a will, self-awareness, and an "imbedded" "need" to evolve. It (spirit) would be "hooked up" to EVERYTHING ELSE...while focusing a FACET of its ATTENTION on the life it is living (at any given moment) through us.

"Spirits" (in my mind) are "ghosts"...which may or may not exist also...but, if they do, they are NOT the FULL or COMPLETE or TOTALITY of the "coherent system" that I'm thinking of when I say "spirit". Spirits might be reflections of a portion of the totality of a disembodied SPIRIT.

This, of course, is PURE SPECULATION -- or PURE B.S.! Take your pick.

Interesting enough, but the question remains, are they physical?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
As far as spirits being physical or not? No.

Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

It's an interesting distinction, and reminds me (somewhat) of Gaia theories - in that it separates the spirit of the All, with the spirits of coherent "chunks" of the All.

As for Casper's being a cartoon, that doesn't change the fact that they are trying to depict "ghosts", that can both be immaterial and material, and that's not scientifically feasible. So, the question remains, are spirits physical entities?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Might "spirit" (which I'm interest in) -- as well as "spirits (which I'm not) -- be "forces" as well?

I'm pretty sure that they (either) are "coherent systems" of SOMETHING. But what? That's the question...or one of them.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Actually, there is no such thing as "force" in the traditional sense - according to modern physics. It is really just curvatures of spacetime.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

Then again it may be just a matter of a slight shift in an energy field to "set something off."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Then again it may be just a matter of a slight shift in an energy field to "set something off."

"Energy fields" are physical.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Royce
To expand on my previous post, despite any objections or denials, in a more cosmological note as implied by other post in this thread I submit the following. This is again my belief and opinion though I am not the only one that believes as I do.
The aspect of God that is the Holy spirit pervades the universe and is a part of it. It is in my opinion the source of the life force that is so strong and everywhere at least here on Earth as there is vertually no where on Earth that life is not abundant and prolific even thousands of feet down in the rocks. I also think of it as the guiding force that insures that the universe behaves. Possibly it is the source of universal consciousness that we talked about in the thread "Conscious Universe". It is IMO the thing that ties us and the universe all together and is at lest in my mind the One that the asian religions speak of. It is of course immaterial and outside of time. It is ubiquitous. Has force and can and does interact with the material universe. In my mind at least it is the unifying force that make it all happen and keeps it working the way that it is meant to.

Well, I can align with the "life force" that pervades Everything...a fundamental ENERGY that connects and effects Everything. I just don't know why we have to call it "Holy"...or believe there is a "Plan" (as would be suggested by your statement about keeping it (Everything) "working the way it is 'MEANT' to."

The Universe is an evolving Entity -- with inherent forces, processes and ingredients that sort of "run themselves" (via cause & effect that might be driven my INTENTION). Must the Universe be deemed a "diety" for us to revere It with awe?

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

I have proposed (in "A COnscious Universe?") the consciousness is not confined to an entity (like ourselves)...but is part of a cosmic network to which we are all connected. That's why the "soul" (or "consciousness") can leave the body with full awareness...and why Casper can walk through walls!

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Actually, there is no such thing as "force" in the traditional sense - according to modern physics. It is really just curvatures of spacetime.

Then a de facto force ...whatever floats your boat!

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
"Energy fields" are physical.

Well then...there you ARE!

 

[M. Gaspar]

And, if "thought" were an "energy field" we might "see" how it could "effect" "matter"...which is "only" another expression of ENERGY anyway.

As I've said: the Universe may be "ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Then a de facto force ...whatever floats your boat!

Chill out, M. Gaspar, I wasn't just spouting knowledge, I was making a point. If a spirit is going to be considered a physical entity (thus capable of interacting with other physical entities) it cannot be "just a force".

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Well then...there you ARE!

You are missing the point. If a spirit is to be considered something qualitatively different from matter, it cannot be energy.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
And, if "thought" were an "energy field" we might "see" how it could "effect" "matter"...which is "only" another expression of ENERGY anyway.

I don't see what you mean.

As I've said: the Universe may be "ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME."

It is all energy all the time. That's all that exists within the Universe, energy; whether it be in it's "free" or "congealed" forms. However, that doesn't explain how something non-physical can interact with something physical. If it is non-physical then it is not energy.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Chill out, M. Gaspar, I wasn't just spouting knowledge, I was making a point. If a spirit is going to be considered a physical entity (thus capable of interacting with other physical entities) it cannot be "just a force".

I'm chilled...to "zero hostility". Honest. And I never think you're "just spouting knowledge".

I am EXPLORING what "Spirit" might be...and, to my mind, it MIGHT be "a force". On the other hand, since I tend to think that "Spirit" -- like everything else -- is a dynamic, coherent SYSTEM...then I need YOU to tell ME whether a "system" can be a "force"?

(PM)

 

[Iacchus32]

From Robert A. Johnson's, "ECSTASY - Understanding the Psychology of Joy" ...

You cannot kill a god, who is by definition immortal. Neither can you kill an archetype, for an archetype is a basic human drive. We carry the archetypes deep within us; they are integral parts of our human nature that must be lived out. When an archetype is not lived out with consciousness or dignity, as von Franz says, it "loads up with energy and becomes inhuman."

This happens not only on the level of the individual, but on the level of the collecitive unconscious, the psyche of a whole society. Carl Jung has said of this phenomenon:

The gigantic catastrophes that threaten us are not elemental happeinings of a physical or biological kind, but are psychic events. We are threatened in a fearful way by wars and revolutions that are nothing else than psychic epidemics. At any moment a few million people may be seized by a madness, and then we have another world war or a devastating revolution. Instead of being exposed to wild beasts, tumbling rocks, and inundating waters, man is exposed today to the elemental forces of his own psyche.

This was brought home one day when a friend took me to an air show. Thousands of people were in the crowd -- I'd never been to such a thing before. My friend said, "You know, there's a tremendous amount of collective power in a group like this. They will demand blood, and they're strong enough to get it." At that very moment a small plane crashed and burned right in front of us. I could feel the Dionysian energy galvanize the crowd, which was at once thrilled and horrified. It was a terrible form, but nonetheless the god was served.

 

[Royce]

Having stated my beliefs about spirit just to present another view point it is of course possible to express the same opinions without the terms God or Holy Spirit, by the way I used the term as a proper name to identify and distingquish it from generic spirit. Whether well call the spirit holy or God or of God or not makes no difference.
I am always astounded to know how vigerous life is and how prevasive it is. Its everywhere! Its lives and thrives in place where we thought no life could possible exist. I realize that it is anthropomorphic to think this way but it seems like there is a driving force and purpose behind it.
The universe is so organized and yet always changing, evolving that again to me it seems that there is a force and purpose to it.
When I used the term "working the way it is meant to" I probably should have said that it continues to follow the laws of physics which is what I had in mind.
I still can't shake the feeling that there is a purpose and controling force and consciousness within all of the universe whether it is physical, spiritual or religious or all of them I of course don't know. It just seems too beautiful, elegant, and logically organized to be a continuing accident, coming from nothing and returning to nothing. Maybe that is why I am religious.
I am totally awed by it and the more that I learn the more awed, blown away, by it I am.

 

[sage]

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

NOW THAT IS INTERESTING. Verified as true by scientific faculty? More feedbacks on this Royce. If out of body experiences are accepted as true facts by medical science then existence of spirits are as good as proved. More details please.

It's our "conscious mind" (not brain) which does the comparing and making decisions. This is like comparing the difference between how a car functions, "properly," and what it takes to actually drive the car, which are two separate matters. In fact this is the very problem that exists with science. They are so busy caught up with how something works, that they lose sight of its actual function, which is just another fancy means of taking things out of context.

the idea was to show that brain is a car that drives itself. I have also tried to show there are ample reasons to think that the conscious mind you refer to is verymuch a part of the brain and the result of processes that occur within it. So what’s your point IACCHUS?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by sage
the idea was to show that brain is a car that drives itself. I have also tried to show there are ample reasons to think that the conscious mind you refer to is verymuch a part of the brain and the result of processes that occur within it. So what’s your point IACCHUS?

If it wasn't for science I wouldn't even know I had a damn brain! ... Really? And yet, I would still have a "conscious mind," with all the faculties thereof. Which is to say, I don't need to know how the brain works in order to "think." The brain is just an apparatus which, if functioning properly, doesn't even draw attention to the fact that it's there. And yet the experience or "sensation" of consciousness is "very real."

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by sage
NOW THAT IS INTERESTING. Verified as true by scientific faculty? More feedbacks on this Royce. If out of body experiences are accepted as true facts by medical science then existence of spirits are as good as proved. More details please.

One incident that I have in mind I saw on either the the Discovery Channel or the Learning Channel. Its possible I saw it on Nova when they were exploring the mind. I'm sorry but I can't remember for sure. The spicifics were that a very young girl was unconscious in an emergency room and they were getting her ready to take to surgery.
A surgical nurse wearing a red surgical hat came in and checked on her. She was the only one wearing a red hat. Days later when the young girl was in recovery the same nurse no longer wearing the red surgical hat came into check on hers condition. The girl recognized her and said that she was the one in the red hat. This was shown as a case of out of body experience as the girl described the emergency room everyone in it and what was said and done and that she had seen her body laying on the table. The doctors and nurses varified the circumstances but offered no official conclusions other than that they could not account for any of it.
The other incident happen to my friend when he'd injured his knee I believe in high school sports. He had been in such pain that the doctor in the emergency room administered drugs to knock him out and relieve the pain before taking him to surgery. He told me that it was as if he was floating up near the ceiling near a corner of the room looking down on his body, his parents and the doctor and nurse. The doctor was explaining to his parents what they were going to do and the probable outcome and recovery. Later in recovery his mother started to tell him what the doctor had said. He interupted her and said that he knew and then proceeded to tell them all what was said and had happened in the emergency room. This was verified by both his parents. He was a good friend and was not lying or making up the story, nor would he lie about something like that. I do not know if it was ever reported or verified by the emergency staff. I only know what he told me and that he thought that it was the truth. These are the two cases thatI said that I know personally of but I have heard of many more such cases verified if not reported by doctors and nurses.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by sage
NOW THAT IS INTERESTING. Verified as true by scientific faculty?

I truly doubt it. No offense to Royce (as he and I have long been good buddies ), but the very statement, "out of body experience", implies that there is something to a human other than his body, and would thus not be a scientific term.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
One incident that I have in mind I saw on either the the Discovery Channel or the Learning Channel. Its possible I saw it on Nova when they were exploring the mind. I'm sorry but I can't remember for sure. The spicifics were that a very young girl was unconscious in an emergency room and they were getting her ready to take to surgery.
A surgical nurse wearing a red surgical hat came in and checked on her. She was the only one wearing a red hat. Days later when the young girl was in recovery the same nurse no longer wearing the red surgical hat came into check on hers condition. The girl recognized her and said that she was the one in the red hat. This was shown as a case of out of body experience as the girl described the emergency room everyone in it and what was said and done and that she had seen her body laying on the table. The doctors and nurses varified the circumstances but offered no official conclusions other than that they could not account for any of it.
The other incident happen to my friend when he'd injured his knee I believe in high school sports. He had been in such pain that the doctor in the emergency room administered drugs to knock him out and relieve the pain before taking him to surgery. He told me that it was as if he was floating up near the ceiling near a corner of the room looking down on his body, his parents and the doctor and nurse. The doctor was explaining to his parents what they were going to do and the probable outcome and recovery. Later in recovery his mother started to tell him what the doctor had said. He interupted her and said that he knew and then proceeded to tell them all what was said and had happened in the emergency room. This was verified by both his parents. He was a good friend and was not lying or making up the story, nor would he lie about something like that. I do not know if it was ever reported or verified by the emergency staff. I only know what he told me and that he thought that it was the truth. These are the two cases thatI said that I know personally of but I have heard of many more such cases verified if not reported by doctors and nurses.

But what if, just hypothetically, a person were to dream, while "knocked out"? If they were to dream, and dream of an emergency room in some detail (partially filtered into their subconscious by the fact that they are, in fact, in an emergency room at the time), then they could recount stories much like the ones you mention, could they not?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If it wasn't for science I wouldn't even know I had a damn brain! ... Really? And yet, I would still have a "conscious mind," with all the faculties thereof. Which is to say, I don't need to know how the brain works in order to "think." The brain is just an apparatus which, if functioning properly, doesn't even draw attention to the fact that it's there. And yet the experience or "sensation" of consciousness is "very real."

Perhaps this is the way the mind of God works? We don't even know it's there, except perhaps through our own consciousness, and yet we don't need to know that it's there, because it's just a matter of functioning properly.

And yet that doesn't mean it's not impossible to discover God, because I think that's part of the design too -- i.e., of "becoming conscious."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If it wasn't for science I wouldn't even know I had a damn brain! ... Really? And yet, I would still have a "conscious mind," with all the faculties thereof.

Actually, you would also still have a brain (obviously), you just wouldn't know it.

Which is to say, I don't need to know how the brain works in order to "think." The brain is just an apparatus which, if functioning properly, doesn't even draw attention to the fact that it's there.

But it's much the same with consciousness (which is a product of the brain's functions), in that it needn't draw attention to itself.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Actually, you would also still have a brain (obviously), you just wouldn't know it.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

But it's much the same with consciousness (which is a product of the brain's functions), in that it needn't draw attention to itself.

Except for the fact that consciousness entails the experience of being alive and "knowing" it, whether we "acknowledge" that it's our consciousness or not.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by Mentat
But what if, just hypothetically, a person were to dream, while "knocked out"? If they were to dream, and dream of an emergency room in some detail (partially filtered into their subconscious by the fact that they are, in fact, in an emergency room at the time), then they could recount stories much like the ones you mention, could they not?

Mentat, sage asked me for particulars of the two cases that I knew about. I presented them as best I could from what I know and remember. I draw no conclusions or make any judgements. I only ask questions as you do. It could have been a dream and their subconscious, I guess, but then how do we explain the girl "seeing" the red hat and remembering it and what the woman wearing it looked like well enough to recognize her?