Exploring the Benefits and Uses of SVG in Web Design

[Moonbear]

You could atleast get a Mac.

Hey! You make that sound like a bad thing!

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Firefox now, but I might switch back to IE when 7 comes out.

 

[dduardo]

Evo, maybe you should buy your daughter an ibook or a powerbook.

http://www.apple.com/ibook/

 

[dduardo]

Firefox now, but I might switch back to IE when 7 comes out.

Boooo, hissss, snarl, grunt

As a web developer yourself, you should know better.

I didn't want to say this but anyone who uses IE is Microsoft's ______.

I'll leave the blank to your imagation.

 

[Moonbear]

Evo, maybe you should buy your daughter an ibook or a powerbook.

http://www.apple.com/ibook/

Yep, you should! I love my powerbook! Random people walk up to me in airports and tell me they like my laptop. (I'm serious, they really do.) It might be more coffee-resistant than PCs too. (Okay, I might not be serious about that part.)

 

[yourdadonapogostick]

i run Firefox on Ubuntu and Windows XP

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Microsoft has already stated too that they are not going to be adding any major CSS functionality to IE7. All they are doing is "just enough" to appease home users. Microsoft is giving the big FU to all developers. This really sucks for developers like me who want to build richer websites but get held back by IE.

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/04/26/412263.aspx

btw, no one likes an elitist slashdot-ish attitude

 

[mattmns]

I am confused about those articles. I saw that, what Greg had posted, the first part, and then the same thing that dduardo had posted about IE not conforming to standards a few days later. Is it just speculation, and we have to wait til it ships to see what is really going on?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I am confused about those articles. I saw that, what Greg had posted, the first part, and then the same thing that dduardo had posted about IE not conforming to standards a few days later. Is it just speculation, and we have to wait til it ships to see what is really going on?

Those blogs I posted are straight from MS developers. In the end we need to wait until it's done and released to pass judgement.

 

[dduardo]

We'll see how well the implement these features, but I'm not too hopeful. Microsoft is going to be very conservative when changing anything in IE7 because of compability concerns with older versions of IE.

And how is this going to improve the stituation with IE5 and IE6? It isn't like they are going to backport any of these improvements to their previous browsers or allow you to run IE7 on older versions of windows.

Things still missing: div over select, div tables, SVG, css3, xforms, E4X, ajax acessability, themes

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

We'll see how well the implement these features, but I'm not too hopeful. Microsoft is going to be very conservative when changing anything in IE7 because of compability concerns with older versions of IE.

And how is this going to improve the stituation with IE5 and IE6? It isn't like they are going to backport any of these improvements to their previous browsers or allow you to run IE7 on older versions of windows.

Things still missing: div over select, div tables, SVG, css3, xforms, ajax acessability, themes

All people have to do is upgrade to IE7. I don't understand why they would ever consider backporting anything, that is the point of the new version instead of patching.

I am sure div over select, and div tables will be fixed, they are well known problems. SVG, there is a plugin already for IE. Personally I've never ever encountered any SVG. Firefox isn't even completely CSS3 compliant, I think just with CSS3 selectors, hell I'm not sure if WC3 is done with CSS3 yet. There is a plugin for xforms for IE. Again, 99% of people will never run into xforms outside Office, it is along way from being used on websites. IE does have some nasty AJAX bugs, but I'm sure they will tighten them up. The next version of Vbulletin will have a lot of AJAX. And themes well, I could care less about making the browser look pretty

 

[dduardo]

It isn't as simple as just upgrading to IE7, you have to be running windows xp first.

 

[mattmns]

Don't you also need to be running SP2?

 

[dduardo]

Don't you also need to be running SP2?

Yes, that too. which is really going to hinder adoption on windows xp. Most people are just going to wait until Vista. It's going to take 4 years to begin undoing the damage that has already been done with the previous versions of IE.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Yes, that too. which is really going to hinder adoption on windows xp. Most people are just going to wait until Vista. It's going to take 4 years to begin undoing the damage that has already been done with the previous versions of IE.

The only official date so far for IE7 is the concurrent release with Windows Vista, so SP2 is irrelevant.

 

[Nylex]

I'm using Mozilla 1.7.5, since it came with Slackware. If it didn't, I probably would be using Firefox .

 

[hitssquad]

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/47208/47208.html

"My advice is simple: Boycott IE. It's a cancer on the Web that must be stopped. IE isn't secure [...]

google.com/search?q=%22firefox+is+not+secure%22

 

[hitssquad]

What security is engineered into Firefox that is not in IE

Some of IE's Vulnerabilies have been there forever.

Firefox is less vulnerable than IE? What might make it less vulnerable?

 

[Monique]

Actually I downloaded the new version of firefox a few days ago, I think it still works crappy so switched back to IE. I've never had a virus/worm/trojan, so why step down.

 

[EL]

So I just finished installing Firefox. It works fine except for one anoying thing: The scroll on my touchpad doesn't work! (In IE it still works fine...)

 

[dduardo]

The only official date so far for IE7 is the concurrent release with Windows Vista, so SP2 is irrelevant.

Ok, so another year until Vista gets into the public if it doesn't get delayed again, then another 4/5 years for the majority to adopt. Now we are going on 5/6 years before we can start using technology which is available today. If they would atleast unbundled IE7, adoption would speed up, but no, they want to force you into an upgrade of their operating system.

google.com/search?q=%22firefox+is+not+secure%22

Now your just spreading FUD. This is type of junk that comes up when you do that type of search:

"Firefox is NOT secure...
According to my rep, Microsoft's official position is that Open Source software is not secure."

Let me bring your attention to some hard evidence which mattmns already posted:

http://secunia.com/product/11/
http://secunia.com/product/4227/

Actually I downloaded the new version of firefox a few days ago, I think it still works crappy so switched back to IE. I've never had a virus/worm/trojan, so why step down.

O no, the scrollbar is not flush to the screen edge and I don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel. What a crappy product. Let me run back to technically inferior software.

So I just finished installing Firefox. It works fine except for one anoying thing: The scroll on my touchpad doesn't work! (In IE it still works fine...)

What model laptop do you have?

------------------

Microsoft has you people in its tight vice grip. You have no idea how far behind Windows is in terms of technology. You will continue to be drop fed improvements while you fill up Microsoft's pockets. It just sickens me to see people consistently go for the worse product.

When Vista comes out and Microsoft touts its transparent window borders as innovative just remember that it has already been done for many years:

http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/transparent.png

And when you see Vista do searches for your documents, just remember these where around before:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/spotlight/
http://beaglewiki.org/Main_Page

And when you see Vista able to switch between users, especially to admin/root, inside a current user session, just remember unix did it back in the 1970s

http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?su+1

And when you see Vista able to filter network traffic better, just remember iptables/ipchains and ipfw

http://www.netfilter.org/
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2001/04/25/FreeBSD_Basics.html

And when Vista tries to shoves DRM down your throat, don't come back and complain that you can't transfer/record/edit your music or movies.

 

[gerben]

Actually I downloaded the new version of firefox a few days ago, I think it still works crappy so switched back to IE. I've never had a virus/worm/trojan, so why step down.

I do not understand what you mean with "works crappy" and with with "stepping down".

 

[Monique]

O no, the scrollbar is not flush to the screen edge and I don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel. What a crappy product. Let me run back to technically inferior software.

That's Firefox's problem, not mine. As I said, I've never had a problem with IE and have a list of problems with Firefox so I choose the one that works for me.

 

[hitssquad]

Firefox is less vulnerable than IE? What might make it less vulnerable?

Let me bring your attention to some hard evidence which mattmns already posted:

http://secunia.com/product/11/
http://secunia.com/product/4227/

Is Firefox more secure than IE? If so, what features make it more secure?

 

[Moonbear]

Ok, so another year until Vista gets into the public if it doesn't get delayed again, then another 4/5 years for the majority to adopt. Now we are going on 5/6 years before we can start using technology which is available today. If they would atleast unbundled IE7, adoption would speed up, but no, they want to force you into an upgrade of their operating system.

This is the part that really bothers me about Microsoft. In any other business, if a supplier ships a product that's defective, they are expected to fix it or refund your money. But, Microsoft expects you to pay to replace the defective product with another only slightly less defective product. In my mind, upgrades should not need to be done to fix bugs. Upgrades should be done because new features are introduced, speed is enhanced, etc.; something that wasn't required for the functionality of the previous version, but you'd really like to have anyway and wonder how you went all those years without it once you have it.

IE lags behind even further on Macs. I think the current version of IE for Macs is still 5.2. I don't know if the numbering system is consistent between platforms though...is that the same as IE 6 for Windows, or IE 5? Fortunately, all new Macs come with Safari.

 

[hitssquad]

google.com/search?q=%22firefox+is+not+secure%22

Now your just spreading FUD. This is type of junk that comes up when you do that type of search:

"Firefox is NOT secure...
According to my rep, Microsoft's official position is that Open Source software is not secure."

That is from a parody written by a Firefox fan. Here is the whole text of that parody:
http://news.zdnet.com/5208-1009-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=11790&messageID=234741&start=7

--
Firefox is NOT secure...
According to my rep, Microsoft's official position is that Open Source software is not secure. My firm has adopted Microsoft's Trustworthy Computing initiative 100%. My rep and I held a conference here where I read the riot act to users in order to scare them into keeping security in the forefront of their minds when using computers. I have told my CEO that for regulatory purposes, I am now blocking access to web sites running Apache. One of my most brilliant MCSD's wrote a plug-in for ISA Server which detects what web server a site is running. If it is not IIS, it is blocked. Period, end of story. My rep has thanked me for my contributions to trust worthy computing over and over again. We are also in line to have Roberta Bragg visit us PERSONALLY and extoll the virtues of her new book about Microsoft security. This is truly a banner time for me and my rep. My rep and I celebrated over breakfast this morning. We both toasted my vision. As my rep says, "networks can only be secure running one OS on one platform". Truer words were never uttered.
Posted by: Mike Cox Posted on: 07/13/05
--

 

[EL]

What model laptop do you have?

HP Compaq nc6220

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

This is the part that really bothers me about Microsoft. In any other business, if a supplier ships a product that's defective, they are expected to fix it or refund your money. But, Microsoft expects you to pay to replace the defective product with another only slightly less defective product. In my mind, upgrades should not need to be done to fix bugs. Upgrades should be done because new features are introduced, speed is enhanced, etc.; something that wasn't required for the functionality of the previous version, but you'd really like to have anyway and wonder how you went all those years without it once you have it.

This is not just Microsoft. This is every computer software company. There isn't one piece of software that doesn't contain bugs at final release. In todays world it is impossible to expect a package to be bug free with all the complexities software companies have to face. Also Microsoft has released a lot of patches for IE. The problem is IE6 is nearly 6 years old. They should have had a brand new browser out 3-4 years ago.

 

[JamesU]

I am using MIE right noe ( ) but on my computer, I switched to firefox. much better

 

[rocketboy]

What's internet explorer?

firefox all the way.

 

[JamesU]

internet explorer is a primative web browser. no protection, and javascript errors as far as the eye could see

 

[mattmns]

Is Firefox more secure than IE? If so, what features make it more secure?

I do not develop firefox so I could not say for sure. Some things that come to mind though are:

1) Firefox is not built into the operating system, unlike IE which is (for windows). This means, imo, that if you have a problem in IE it can screw up your entire system.

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878">There are a number of significant vulnerabilities in technologies relating to the IE domain/zone security model, local file system (Local Machine Zone) trust, the Dynamic HTML (DHTML) document object model (in particular, proprietary DHTML features), the HTML Help system, MIME type determination, the graphical user interface (GUI), and ActiveX. … IE is integrated into Windows to such an extent that vulnerabilities in IE frequently provide an attacker significant access to the operating system.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Internet_Explorer


2) Active X: Firefox does not have Active X, and imo, that alone is a nice feature. Active X seems to be a big problem with IE and I think is the source for a lot of spyware, ad-ware, etc.

Microsoft has recognized the problem with ActiveX since 1996 when Charles Fitzgerald, program manager of Microsoft's Java team said "If you want security on the 'Net', unplug your computer. ... We never made the claim up front that ActiveX is intrinsically secure."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_X

 

[dduardo]

HP Compaq nc6220

Sorry, couldn't find any people having issues with firefox on this laptop. Must be a driver issue.

This is not just Microsoft. This is every computer software company. There isn't one piece of software that doesn't contain bugs at final release. In todays world it is impossible to expect a package to be bug free with all the complexities software companies have to face. Also Microsoft has released a lot of patches for IE. The problem is IE6 is nearly 6 years old. They should have had a brand new browser out 3-4 years ago.

Your right, software is complicated stuff. The issue I have with Microsoft is that they've waited too long to release a new Windows/IE. Look at Apple's release cycle, they've had 4 releases since the arrival of OSX 10.0 in 2001. They are constantly updating their software and improving safari. It is even said that in their current CVS safari passes the ACID2 test. So hopefully will see this improvement in Leopard OSX 10.5. Microsoft on the other hand has been dragging the industry along with its antiquated technology and resistence to make major changes to IE. Microsoft better have one hell of an operating system if it took them nearly 5 years to complete. If any other software company would have tried to pull this type of stunt they would surely filed for bankrupcy.

 

[hitssquad]

2) Active X: Firefox does not have Active X

IE also does not have Active X if it is not turned on. Alternately, in IE, five different aspects of Active X can be individually selected On, Off, or set to Prompt.

 

[mattmns]

IE also does not have Active X if it is not turned on. Alternately, in IE, five different aspects of Active X can be individually selected On, Off, or set to Prompt.

Yes, and if you were to go a few steps further and disable IE altogether, there would probably be no security issues with IE at all.