Finished PhD -- it's been one year and can't find a job

[jacksonshana]

"Be aggressive" in this case seems very close to just saying he should "put in 110% effort".

I still do not understand, so what would someone who puts in "110%" do more than the person who puts in "100%" to find a job ?

Anyway it really is pointless citing percentages about how much effort someone exerts to find a job. I mean it might sound good, but to be honest it is of little use, at the end of the day I try my best in all my job searches and all the applications I make, and that is all I can do.

 

[jacksonshana]

maybe you could apply to a job in southamerica. There you have the "National Atomic Energy Commission" (Centro Nacional de Energia Atomica). And you can send your information to this email - info@cab.cnea.gov.ar -. The website is - http://www.cab.cnea.gov.ar/index.php/contacto - and this is other website form the Balseiro Institute (Instituto Balseiro) - http://www.ib.edu.ar/index.php/english-version.html - and here the email --- info@ib.edu.ar ---.

Thank you for the links Tyler.Smith, but again I imagine that I would need to speak Spanish or Portuguese to a decent level in order to have a realistic chance of being offered a position in these countries. Unfortunatley I do not.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I still do not understand, so what would someone who puts in "110%" do more than the person who puts in "100%" to find a job ?

Anyway it really is pointless citing percentages about how much effort someone exerts to find a job. I mean it might sound good, but to be honest it is of little use, at the end of the day I try my best in all my job searches and all the applications I make, and that is all I can do.

I believe when others refer to "putting in 110%", they mean do not simply rely on applying for jobs that are posted or contacting your former classmates, but go beyond that to really focus on developing skills that are "marketable" that you either possesses already through your education or are willing to develop on your own, perhaps while you are currently working as a bus driver (much as ParticleGrl had done while she had worked as a bartender) -- for someone like you, based on your research work, that would be programming/software development, statistical analysis/data analysis/machine learning, or computational finance (all popular areas for former physicists, especially for finance in the UK).

Then focus on networking, by setting up a LinkedIn page (at the risk of repeating myself, I STRONGLY recommend doing this); joining discussion forums online on software development, statistics/machine learning, or finance; attending seminars; meeting people; talking to headhunters/recruiters; even cold-calling companies.

You had said that you had went to career fairs and had good feedback, but didn't hear anything back when you applied to the company -- did you get any business cards or any contact info for the people you met there? Did you call and follow up with the person you met? Simply applying and waiting for a response is NOT enough!

 

[ModusPwnd]

What is so great about LinkedIn? I signed up when I was looking for career style jobs, it didn't seem very helpful.

 

[StatGuy2000]

What is so great about LinkedIn? I signed up when I was looking for career style jobs, it didn't seem very helpful.

LinkedIn is a social networking site for job seekers, recruiters and employers to essentially "find each other" as well as providing various tools for online discussions related to various career fields (for example, I am a member of a statistician's networking group on LinkedIn).

After signing up for LinkedIn and posting my qualifications, I have had many recruiters and employers contact me informing me about job openings -- in many cases these jobs were not even publically posted on any job site (often through the people I've connected with through the networking groups). Plus LinkedIn also has a search engine that allows you to search for work like Monster.

Of course, simply signing up to LinkedIn doesn't guarantee anything, but it allows you to expand your ability to network.

 

[EternityMech]

why get a PHD if all you end up doing is programming?

 

[carlgrace]

why get a PHD if all you end up doing is programming?

Because not all programming is created equal.

 

[jacksonshana]

I believe when others refer to "putting in 110%", they mean do not simply rely on applying for jobs that are posted or contacting your former classmates, but go beyond that to really focus on developing skills that are "marketable" that you either possesses already through your education or are willing to develop on your own, perhaps while you are currently working as a bus driver (much as ParticleGrl had done while she had worked as a bartender) -- for someone like you, based on your research work, that would be programming/software development, statistical analysis/data analysis/machine learning, or computational finance (all popular areas for former physicists, especially for finance in the UK).

Then focus on networking, by setting up a LinkedIn page (at the risk of repeating myself, I STRONGLY recommend doing this); joining discussion forums online on software development, statistics/machine learning, or finance; attending seminars; meeting people; talking to headhunters/recruiters; even cold-calling companies.

You had said that you had went to career fairs and had good feedback, but didn't hear anything back when you applied to the company -- did you get any business cards or any contact info for the people you met there? Did you call and follow up with the person you met? Simply applying and waiting for a response is NOT enough!

I hear what your saying StatGuy2000, but I have been 'developing my skills' for the last 10 years at university, and I am only going to learn new skills if I am interested what I am doing. Thus this excludes computational finance and other non science related computer programming positions. Believe it or not, I actually spent 10 years studying physics to become a physicist not a computer programmer or any other unrelated type of career. However, despite applying for a lot of jobs, for one reason or another, I cannot seem to find a position in which I can achieve this. But as I have said, I am quite happy to stay as a bus driver, while I continue to try and land a job I like, simply because to me, driving buses is a whole lot more interesting than computational finance.

p.s I joined LinkedIn couple of weeks ago, and I have to say so far I am very dissapointed in it, there has been no job leads whatsoever, it has been to busy spamming my email account every day telling me to follow people that are in completely unrelated fields.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Believe it or not, I actually spent 10 years studying physics to become a physicist not a computer programmer or any other unrelated type of career.

But you were lied to, and now you are lying to yourself- there are no careers to be had in physics. Its time to readjust and retool. The physics chapter in your life is over. The majority of physics phds leave physics- you took your shot, rolled the dice, and lost- but that's ok, the odds were heavily stacked toward the house.

You might not hate driving a bus, but you probably don't want to do it forever (at the very least there are probably decent alternatives that pay way better).

But as I have said, I am quite happy to stay as a bus driver, while I continue to try and land a job I like, simply because to me, driving buses is a whole lot more interesting than computational finance.

That physics job is never going to show up. Put yourself in the shoes of an employer doing hiring- you have a choice between hiring someone who was publishing recently and hiring someone who has been driving a bus for the last year.

Its time to move on.

 

[Rika]

It never stops to amaze me that people can be so delusional. In my country everyone and their mothers know that there are no jobs in physics/chemistry/biology etc. How come you didn't know that? Is there some kind of conspiracy in US?

Anyway you don't need to be computer programmer. You can get MSc in engineering and work as engineer or you can do something else.

The point is - give up physics and start doing something different. I'm sure there are careers out there that can make you happy.

 

[Lavabug]

Rika, did you read anything in this thread? The OP is based in the UK.

ParticleGrl, I think you're forcing your own opinions/ambitions onto him. You left physics by choice, you said you didn't want the post-doc life and that prof's you had were dishonest to you.

This doesn't sound like shana's experience. And afaik, after spending a number of months at a UK university, I've learned that the prospect for UK phd's staying in the UK after graduating and having a scientific career is very, very low. The default option seems to be doing a post-doc in another country or two before returning to the UK to have a sensible chance. A few phd's and most physics undergraduates I've met here don't plan on making science a career, just an adventure for a few years that they'll give up on when they decide to have a family/stay in the same place.

I don't think profs paint an unrealistic picture for anyone here either, they sometimes joke about it along the lines of "since most of you want to work for a bank..." and most of the class laughs in agreement.

 

[ParticleGrl]

This doesn't sound like shana's experience. And afaik, after spending a number of months at a UK university, I've learned that the prospect for UK phd's staying in the UK after graduating and having a scientific career is very, very low.

But its important to realize the probability is OVERALL very, very low. Even if you do postdocs outside the UK. In today's economy, even getting a decent postdoc is tough. Doing a postdoc still leaves you with very low odds to continue in physics.

I don't think profs paint an unrealistic picture for anyone here either, they sometimes joke about it along the lines of "since most of you want to work for a bank..." and most of the class laughs in agreement.

The misdirect there is in the word WANT. Physics phds don't work for banks and insurance companies because that's their hearts desire, they want to be physicists. Physics phds work for banks and insurance companies because that's where the work is.

jacksonshana is of the opinion that because he did a phd and what he wants is a job in physics he'll eventually find one- that's not how the world works. The longer he/she spends driving a bus, the less likely it gets that the physics job will ever show up. Most physics phds work for banks or as programmers or at insurance companies because they can't get jobs in physics, not because the banking/programming/insurance analysis is more appealing.

 

[Lavabug]

And how do you know that? You were never in the post-doc market in or outside the UK. Doing no postdoc leaves you with null odds of continuing in academia too, so let's not exaggerate the already bleak prospects, it's getting a little ridiculous.

And what the profs really said was "will be bankers or consultants", not "want", now that I remember. But a lot of people I have spoken to do WANT banking jobs because they pay well and they need them to sustain their fairly high standard of living (as compared to mine, but I come from a comparatively poor background).

I still haven't met any physics undergraduates here that want a phd or take science seriously like a career, it doesn't look at all like it's their #1 ambition.

 

[ParticleGrl]

And how do you know that? You were never in the post-doc market in or outside the UK. Doing no postdoc leaves you with null odds of continuing in academia too, so let's not exaggerate the already bleak prospects, it's getting a little ridiculous.

I actually turned down an offer at Durham, and I've worked with postdocs from all over the world (all grad students do). Most of the postdocs I know left physics not-by-choice. But my personal sample might be biased, so we can turn to the long term career studies of UK physics phds.

This chart is from a long term study of physics phd in the UK (hoisted from a thread in this forum) -http://imgur.com/8SOJX Just under half of phds do postdocs, but only about 3.5% (of the total) make it to permanent research staff (0.45% are tenure track professors). So doing some postdocs increases your odds to < 10%.

But this is irrelevant to what's at hand (whats important for the OP)- if you fail to get a postdoc, driving a bus for a year will greatly diminish your odds of getting one in the future. We can't all be movie stars.

 

[Lavabug]

I have seen the chart you posted. I would be really surprised if it included post-docs and tenureship of UK phd's abroad, I doubt whatever organization that compiled those statistics keeps track of UK scientists that have emigrated (as is the case for practically everyone doing HEP in the UK or so I've heard).

Also, if I'm reading it correctly, 30% of phd's make it into the "permanent research staff" region. Then ~0.88 of those choose to quit for other non-research careers. I don't think that's so bad, especially when the first fraction of potential competitors (0.53) left during the post-doc stage or never even begun it, for whatever reason(and I'm starting to believe not doing post-docs is not due to lack of opportunity, this has been the only thread I've heard about someone failing to get a postdoc, while I've heard at least half a dozen cases of fresh phd's passing on post-docs apart from your own).

I think the only unrealistic expectation is that of university professorship, but there are other avenues like government/contractor research. My university recently held a colloquium given by 8 former graduates (some with phd's). Some were post-docs, others worked for government labs, one in banking 1 or 2 AWE/defense, etc.

And I'm sorry I can't be more helpful to the OP, I really don't know how it is in the field. Maybe it was just an unlucky year for that field, have you considered post-docs in not immediately-related fields? Speaking way out of my knowledge here, but I have heard of people doing postdocs in radically different fields and later making a career out of them.

But if it's your choice to keep doing what you do and you're enjoying it, there's absolutely no shame in it. Like others have said, don't let some random people on the internet tell you what you should do to be happy, only you can know that for sure.

 

[jacksonshana]

But you were lied to, and now you are lying to yourself- there are no careers to be had in physics. Its time to readjust and retool. The physics chapter in your life is over. The majority of physics phds leave physics- you took your shot, rolled the dice, and lost- but that's ok, the odds were heavily stacked toward the house.

You might not hate driving a bus, but you probably don't want to do it forever (at the very least there are probably decent alternatives that pay way better).



That physics job is never going to show up. Put yourself in the shoes of an employer doing hiring- you have a choice between hiring someone who was publishing recently and hiring someone who has been driving a bus for the last year.

Its time to move on.

Thanks for the advice ParticleGrl, but for your information I have been co author to over 10 papers, and the last one, which I was first author was only published three months ago in Phys Rev C; furthermore, I expect to have two more published in the next three to four months. So for a bus driver I think this is quite good !

Maybe I cannot find a career in physics, but if the alternative is a career in programming, sitting in front of a computer all day working on projects that I have no care about whatsoever, then to me that would be like death by a thousand cuts and soul destroying. I'd rather stay driving a bus, or become an electrician or something along those lines. The money I am on now is more than enough to cover my needs, so I don't really care about a high paid job doing something that bores me.

 

[jacksonshana]

But if it's your choice to keep doing what you do and you're enjoying it, there's absolutely no shame in it. Like others have said, don't let some random people on the internet tell you what you should do to be happy, only you can know that for sure.

Thank you Lavabug,

 

[ModusPwnd]

I still haven't met any physics undergraduates here that want a phd or take science seriously like a career, it doesn't look at all like it's their #1 ambition.

Thats crazy to me. In my experience every single physics undergrad has PhD and science career aspirations when starting their program. Most change their mind along the way, and depending on when they do change their mind they either change their major or just make do with what they got.

Why do they major in physics? Just to learn about some quantum and relativity?

 

[Lavabug]

Thats crazy to me. In my experience every single physics undergrad has PhD and science career aspirations when starting their program. Most change their mind along the way, and depending on when they do change their mind they either change their major or just make do with what they got.

Why do they major in physics? Just to learn about some quantum and relativity?

I agree, it was a shock to me because what you describe was similar to the case at my home university (some people didn't even know you needed a phd though, that's another story, but most changed their mind like you describe). Lecture halls for 3rd year QM and nuclear physics are full to the brim with ~150 students, but as far as I can tell only a very small fraction have the interest to continue on to a phd.

I think it might have the fact to do this is a very expensive place to live in (London) and the students have more contact with the jobs that "bring the dough". It doesn't deter people from studying subjects they like though, I have heard it thrown around that something like 90% of jobs in the UK simply require a bachelors.

 

[wolfmax]

I can back up what Lavabug is saying. PhD is not necessarily the goal with physics undergrads in the UK, as it seems to be in other countries. In fact I've had many conversations with international students who marvel in us Brits lack of academic fervour.

To the OP, if you've found something that maintains your standard of living and doesn't drive you round the twist, then that's not to be sniffed at. Keep your eye out and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you

 

[Lavabug]

In fact I've had many conversations with international students who marvel in us Brits lack of academic fervour.

I wonder if that is the impression that UK institutions get from their own students, resulting in discrimination at the post-doc level. Most postdocs in astrophysics at my uni are foreign.

 

[wolfmax]

I wonder if that is the impression that UK institutions get from their own students, resulting in discrimination at the post-doc level. Most postdocs in astrophysics at my uni are foreign.

I think it is. I had an informal conversation with some lecturers at my uni and they all seem to favour foreign students. "They work harder" is what they say. From what I've seen I'd probably agree. We just want an easy life.

 

[GraphicsGuy]

Signing up to Linkedin is only the first stage. You have to let other people know you are interested in their projects, companies or articles by clicking the "like" button and posting articles yourself.

 

[clope023]

It never stops to amaze me that people can be so delusional. In my country everyone and their mothers know that there are no jobs in physics/chemistry/biology etc. How come you didn't know that? Is there some kind of conspiracy in US?

Anyway you don't need to be computer programmer. You can get MSc in engineering and work as engineer or you can do something else.

The point is - give up physics and start doing something different. I'm sure there are careers out there that can make you happy.

That's cute and all except for the fact that there ARE jobs for physics/chemistry/biology, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin ask for physicists by name in some of their job postings. The military also hires non-engineering STEM majors, this fantasy that a degree in engineering is the golden ticket to employment is as big a farce as the myth of the shortage of STEM professionals myth.

 

[sabq]

Just curious, if you apply to 100 or 300 jobs, who would write you letters of recommendation for all of these? Would they be bothered? Or you just apply to mostly jobs that don't ask for letters of recommendation?

 

[homeomorphic]

That's cute and all except for the fact that there ARE jobs for physics/chemistry/biology, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin ask for physicists by name in some of their job postings. The military also hires non-engineering STEM majors, this fantasy that a degree in engineering is the golden ticket to employment is as big a farce as the myth of the shortage of STEM professionals myth.

No one ever said there are NO jobs. Listing one or two companies is not a counter-example to the claim that there are not very many jobs. An engineering degree is no guarantee. There's never a guarantee. But to say that physics is better for getting a job would be completely inaccurate. Engineering is obviously a better degree from a pure employability standpoint. The point is that it's better to be someone for which there are standard jobs, rather than a sort of exotic bird that only a few employers are going to want to hire. I don't like the whole "creatively finding a place for myself" thing, speaking as a math PhD. I'd much rather be applying to some sort of standard job, rather than searching for that needle in a haystack. It's very competitive out there. Yes, there are jobs, but if you are not the best at selling yourself and finding your place, then it makes sense to go for something where you have to pull fewer career stunts.

 

[wukunlin]

Well, let's have a look at Australia (where I live and a developed western country). SEEK is one of the most popular job boards and we will look at some raw numbers.

The number of jobs under the engineering category: 3,209
The number of jobs under the physics & chemistry subcategory (which is under the science and technology category) : 38


But wait, most of them relate only to chemistry, paints, pharmaceuticals, hazardous material management. So the only jobs for physicists are: 3 postdocs, 1 for quantum computing and 2 for theoretical particle physics. There is also a position on batteries so I guess we can count that as a physics as well as a chemistry related job.

Some people will say physicists can do the jobs in the engineering category as well. But why would employers want to hire physicists for an engineering position when there are 10s or even 100s more applications from engineering graduates applying for each position?

 

[bluechic92]

So I ran across this thread recently and noticed that the OP has not posted for over a year! I hope the OP is happy with with the job he currently has.
Anyways to bump this:

After graduating from a Bachelors in physics in US, here's what I noticed:

1) relevant teaching experience can help you get a teaching job! Tutor on the side of whatever it is you are doing if you want to teach. Make students/parents happy than word of mouth can take you to lots of places!

2) It's far easier to find employment if you have experimental background ( more in condensed matter) than theoretical( which is what i have and the pen and paper kind too ). Most of the places that I get interviewed and move up are in the finance industry

3) DO NOT EVER mention that you want to go back to science for non STEM industry. That was my mistake when they asked me "where do you see yourself in 3-5 years?" and I also heavily talked about my passion for research ( while emphasizing the useful skills). *stupid answer, I know . But, I really wanted (still want to) get a PhD in physics.

3.5) Switching field is easier in grad school, but it is possible to do this in post-doc stage too. One way is to apply directly... another way is to volunteer in a prof's lab (group)* to get some experience and then apply. This way you will have an additional strong recommendation. * I think it might be easier to switch from theory -->experiment than experiment --> theory at this stage*

4) Lastly, I learned that no one in the real world cares how smart you are and how much qft you know. For the most part, it does not seem to matter in the physics world either unless if you want to do theory or something heavily involved with qft. I am auditing a qft class because I love it, but I am realizing now that I should have audited a computer programming class or something...

5) For anybody who felt sort of discouraged after seeing this thread, DON'T BE* Things will always be tough, but there is always a chance to learn new things and opportunity for growth. You just have to have the right attitude and meet people. Talk to people! As one of the posters, mentioned over and over again, networking is SOO damn important.

Alan Guth is pretty damn smart, however he struggled too.
Hope some of you find that article inspiring!

http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/05/02/alan-guth-what-made-big-bang-bang/RmI4s9yCI56jKF6ddMiF4L/story.html

 

[mworth]

Sorry for replying to an old thread. I have a question which directly relates to this.

Why did the OP not apply for jobs in the nuclear industry?

I am considering a masters in nuclear physics (MSc physics and technology of nuclear reactors) following on from my bachelors.

On linkedin I see former students in roles such as:
nuclear graduate - BAE Systems Maritime Engineering & Services
Trainee Radiation Protection Advisor - Sellafield
Nuclear Safety Engineer - EDF Energy and BAE
Horizon nuclear power graduate scheme, Gloucester

So, is the nuclear industry a good one to get into? There seem to be graduate schemes but the story of the OP is a worrying one as he even had a PhD in nuclear.

Thanks

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why did the OP not apply for jobs in the nuclear industry?

Since he hasn't been here in 2-1/2 years I don't think he will answer you.