Furor over Native American Fashion Costume

[micromass]

Yes. As I said above people relate past events to more than just individuals responsible for those events. People are as sensitive to German making fun of Jews as they are to an English making fun past British colony people. Are they not?

OK, but we're not talking about Germans making fun of Jews. Making fun of Jews is unacceptable and racist, whether it is done by Germans or others. We're talking about selling lingerie with the cross of David. To me, that is not deliberately making fun of Jews, it's using a religious or cultural symbol for fashion. I don't consider that making fun. You might consider that making fun though, but I would disagree.

Victoria's secret used native american symbolism not to make fun of them, but because they thought it would be nice fashion. If their intent was to mock the native americans, then I would completely disagree with it, but I don't believe that was their intent.

So the question here is not: should we make fun of native Americans (the answer is of course no). But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.

 

[rootX]

OK, but we're not talking about Germans making fun of Jews.

I was responding to your quotes where you were talking about Germans like one here:

Because he's German?? Sorry, but I find that attitude very sad.

So the question here is not: should we make fun of native Americans (the answer is of course no). But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols

This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is no separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.

 

[Drakkith]

This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.

I think it's about people being ignorant that those things are even symbols at all. Is that what you meant?
I doubt anyone is going to make lingerie with the star of david or jesus on a cross, as those are far more likely to be recognized as religious symbols.

 

[Vagrant]

But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.

I think you are discounting religion or culture specific connotations and sensitivities that a non-member cannot be expected to know about.

For example, using Hindu religious symbols on clothes...you put them on shirts, bags, caps etc, no one will care, but you put them on slippers or shoes or underwear and most people would find that to be in extremely bad taste and disrespectful.

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.

 

[Monique]

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.

In many cultures cattle is sacred, should people stop eating beef because it's sacrilege?

Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?

 

[Vagrant]

Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?

Did I suggest that violence is acceptable either as a form of protest or as a reaction or for anything else for that matter?

I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

Anyhow, my comment was specifically in context of this thread and micromass' question about using religious or cultural symbols in art and fashion. I was trying to suggest that if you do use them, you should be open to the idea that there might be weird customs attached to them. Violence was not in the picture and nor did I account for it, so I don't think that you should take my comments out of that context.

 

[Monique]

I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.

 

[Vagrant]

I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Eating a sandwich can raise insult in only very, very specific scenarios. Context is vitally important. So is the manner in which you raise objection and react.

I think this is an example of intolerance and a criminal one at that. If, for example, the man was eating this sandwich that they objected to on the premises of their specific religious institution, they would have been justified in feeling upset or asking him to leave the premises. But I'm not even asking you for the context because IMO the second they resorted to violence, they lost any justification they might or might not have had.

 

[rootX]

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.

I think it's just wrong to use artifacts because they're cool but then not learning about them. There shouldn't be any excuse for cultural uneducated people to inappropriately use cultural/religious symbols.

It's ridiculous that a big company like VS is ignorant of natives customs.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There has been no hounding yet... Star of David Underwear & Panties

Excellent research, Monique! I can only say we'll see what happens. I think the "Remember the Holocaust" boxer shorts are not going to fly well in the Hassidic community.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.

These issues are worth discussing but I think you're wandering off topic. The woman at the link is being criticized here for speaking out because her culture is being misrepresented. The question is, are people who object to being grossly misrepresented really out of line?

I don't think so and I think everyone here would be agitated if they were misrepresented in a way they particularly disliked.

 

[russ_watters]

So, you're saying you never feel the lest bit upset when you read about how rabble rousers in the Middle East misrepresent American Culture to their followers?

How is that anywhere close to what we are talking about? Jessica Simpson is not 'rabble rousing', she's wearing a string on her head.

 

[russ_watters]

No, I'm saying the hypothetical German manufacturer would be to blame for extreme insensitivity.

Should a German hate Americans due to WWII? German style houses are popular here: is it insensitive of us to build them because of all the Germans we killed?

The circle of hate goes round and round and is very difficult to keep track of.

 

[micromass]

I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.

 

[Vagrant]

And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.

I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.

 

[micromass]

I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.

Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??

I, personally, find nothing more annoying than vegetarians who try to make others feel guilty and who are even offended about the pokemon video game. For me, the situation is simple: if you don't like people to eat meat in your presence, then you should choose yourself not to go in that company. Don't start complaining about people offending you.

 

[aquitaine]

I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.

People don't have the right not to be offended. To say otherwise is inviting a whole mess of trouble along with some very outrageous restrictions on individual rights.

 

[Vagrant]

Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??

What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.

 

[micromass]

What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.

Yes. I agree with that.

 

[Vagrant]

People don't have the right not to be offended.

I'm still trying to figure this one out. Could you please say this another way?

 

[russ_watters]

These issues are worth discussing but I think you're wandering off topic. The woman at the link is being criticized here for speaking out because her culture is being misrepresented. The question is, are people who object to being grossly misrepresented really out of line?

I don't think so and I think everyone here would be agitated if they were misrepresented in a way they particularly disliked.

If no one is claiming the representation is accurate, how can one claim it is a misrepresentation?

 

[russ_watters]

I'm still trying to figure this one out. Could you please say this another way?

It is the inverse of freedom of speech: people have a right to say things that are offensive. People do not have the right to silence speech that offends them -- in public.

Ie, bringing meat to a vegitarian's house is offensive and he can throw you out over it, but he doesn't have the power to prevent a McDonalds from opening up across the street.

 

[BobG]

And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.

What's your definition of acting maturely?

Is it to burn someone's house down every time they get offended? (probably not since it's a rhetorical question)

Is it to tell people you don't like it when they do that and tell them why?

Or is it to shut up and color and just take it?

Some people would say it takes some backbone to tell people when you're bothered by what other people do (especially if that person is bigger than you and has a violent temper).

By the same token, no one here knows how Native Americans as a whole feel about the fashion show. We just know that a few Native Americans were offended.

Just like a military veteran or two that aren't offended by people wearing the US flag apparel doesn't tell us how military veterans as whole feel about it.

If I had to guess, I'd guess not too many people are offended by either one. Some people get offended any time customs and courtesies are violated. Some people couldn't care less about any customs and courtesies even when they're just good manners. Most people probably notice when customs and courtesies are violated, but don't get very excited about it.

But, if it does bother them, I don't have a problem with them saying so. Doesn't mean it would change my behavior, but I'd at least consider their concerns if I knew it bothered them.

 

[BobG]

People don't have the right not to be offended. To say otherwise is inviting a whole mess of trouble along with some very outrageous restrictions on individual rights.

I, too, find this a very strange way to say things.

It almost sounds as if you're saying that you don't have the right to say anything about things you don't like. As if you're saying the offender deserves more rights than the offended.

I think it's more accurate to say the offended person doesn't have the right to force the offender to change.

If the offender is offended by the offended's comments about what the offender did, then what would you suggest the offender do in response to the offended's offensive comments? (geez, I wish I could say this 10 times fast)

 

[turbo]

Years ago, my great-aunt bought her husband a 4-point Pendleton blanket (the kind that was white with bold colored stripes) and hired a seamstress to make him a heavy coat out of it. He was a pretty big guy and hard to fit, but the seamstress did a wonderful job, and it looked great on him. Since most of my mother's side of the family is French-Canadian and Native American (Metis), nobody thought twice about it. It probably helped that about half the town shared our heritage.

He got lots of compliments on that coat. Even 30+ years ago, those trade blankets were $$$. He explained to me that the "points" woven into the hem of the blanket indicated not only the quality of the blanket, but also served as an indicator of how many beaver pelts would be required to trade for such a blanket.

He was a massive, ruddy-faced guy and could wear that well. Perhaps part of the critique over the VS costume was that a skinny white female was depicted wearing a ridiculously long flowing bonnet (reserved for chiefs of the Plains tribes) and that jarred the sensitivities of members of those tribes. I know that it was just a costume for a fashion show, but if you could come to central Maine when people of woodlands Native American descent hold their annual gatherings, you would see how seriously the participants take their heritage.

The French part of my family came from northeastern Maine (bordering NB and PQ) and I'm not even sure whether I'm descended from MicMacs or Maliseets. The French trappers and traders intermarried with native women, and at some point the Roman Catholic church became the record-keepers of those marriages, and records are scant.

 

[rootX]

Years ago, my great-aunt bought her husband a 4-point Pendleton blanket (the kind that was white with bold colored stripes) and hired a seamstress to make him a heavy coat out of it. He was a pretty big guy and hard to fit, but the seamstress did a wonderful job, and it looked great on him. Since most of my mother's side of the family is French-Canadian and Native American (Metis), nobody thought twice about it. It probably helped that about half the town shared our heritage.

He got lots of compliments on that coat. Even 30+ years ago, those trade blankets were $$$. He explained to me that the "points" woven into the hem of the blanket indicated not only the quality of the blanket, but also served as an indicator of how many beaver pelts would be required to trade for such a blanket.

He was a massive, ruddy-faced guy and could wear that well. Perhaps part of the critique over the VS costume was that a skinny white female was depicted wearing a ridiculously long flowing bonnet (reserved for chiefs of the Plains tribes) and that jarred the sensitivities of members of those tribes. I know that it was just a costume for a fashion show, but if you could come to central Maine when people of woodlands Native American descent hold their annual gatherings, you would see how seriously the participants take their heritage.

The French part of my family came from northeastern Maine (bordering NB and PQ) and I'm not even sure whether I'm descended from MicMacs or Maliseets. The French trappers and traders intermarried with native women, and at some point the Roman Catholic church became the record-keepers of those marriages, and records are scant.

It would be nice if they teach more about heritage in schools. Else, one day our heritage and culture will only be on bikinis or underwears.

 

[BobG]

It would be nice if they teach more about heritage in schools. Else, one day our heritage and culture will only be on bikinis or underwears.

Probably depends on the school system and I may have just gotten lucky by coincidence, but both cities I attended school in taught the cultural heritage of the native Americans that lived in the area. I had "Wichita history" which included the Plains tribes when I lived in Kansas and I had "Ohio history" which included the tribes of Ohio. "Ohio history" was more comprehensive, but that was a junior high course, while "Wichita history" was something taught in elementary school.

 

[turbo]

Probably depends on the school system and I may have just gotten lucky by coincidence, but both cities I attended school in taught the cultural heritage of the native Americans that lived in the area. I had "Wichita history" which included the Plains tribes when I lived in Kansas and I had "Ohio history" which included the tribes of Ohio. "Ohio history" was more comprehensive, but that was a junior high course, while "Wichita history" was something taught in elementary school.

We had none of that when I was a kid in Maine, and in fact we were looked down upon by lots of Anglos that didn't know or appreciate the contributions of our forebears. Forced assimilation results in the loss of valuable knowledge.

 

[WannabeNewton]

It would be nice if they teach more about heritage in schools. Else, one day our heritage and culture will only be on bikinis or underwears.

This would benefit only those who gave two cents about heritage and culture in the first place.

 

[turbo]

This would benefit only those who gave two cents about heritage and culture in the first place.

Or perhaps the accumulated knowledge that the ethnic groups could contribute. This is not a trivial thing. I learned valuable stuff from my family that is barely mentioned today. I grew up poor, as did most of my family, but we valued the contributions of the great and great-great elders. If you can't spend the time and effort to talk with them, it can be lost.

 

[Evo]

How far back do we take this? I'm offended that Christoper Columbus wrongly gets credit for discovering America, he never even set foot on the American Continent, so I want Columbus Day eradicated as a national holiday.

 

[lisab]

This would benefit only those who gave two cents about heritage and culture in the first place.

I think you hit the nail on the head, WBN. Some people treasure their heritage, some don't give a rip. If those two groups of people could at least *try* to understand each other a bit.

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

It would be nice if they teach more about heritage in schools. Else, one day our heritage and culture will only be on bikinis or underwears.

Are you aware, in even the slightest sense, that different Native American tribes have different cultures? That they have occupied North America for, at the very least, 12,000 years? Do you know how many cultures would be woefully excluded from any kind of curriculum in schools, were they to take heed of your words and choose to act in your pity?

When was the last time that you gave the slightest damn about the Aleuts? The Alutiiq? The Yup'ik? How about the Inuits?

They all live in, and lived in, what we now currently call the United States of America. In what way should we implement all of their varied cultures into our education? Their thousands of years of different cultures, traditions, ideologies, religious practices, means of survival, social heriarchy; their history, their confrontations, their wars; their advancements, their inventions, their languages; their divisions, their migrations into North America, their expansion throughout the land; and finally, and apparently of the utmost importance to all whom it may concern; their thoughts of sexuality and how they feel when other people choose, in complete innocence of thought and action with regards to cultural sensitivity, to wear their head-gear?

You feign compassion, yet I see empty words. Are all scientifically literate and skeptical people entirely ignorant and dismissive of the cultures which other people have become fond of? Absolutely, undoubtedly, and undeniably no. To say otherwise is not only a blatant, injustifiable generalization, but appears to be based merely on someone's profession of choice, and their personal preference as to not believing in any sort of God or entity.

Whether or not it is culturally taboo for another Native American to steal another's headdress, and whether or not it is culturally taboo for a Native American woman to trounce around in a bikini is utterly and completely besides any point that has been made here; they are their own system, their own culture, their own beings, their own people, and they have their own ways. We are our own people, we have our own system, we have our own ways, and those ways include not only intolerance of unjustified intolerance, but also complacency and understanding for those who choose to dress up occasionally.

This occurrence is nothing more than the opinion of people who cannot appear to handle having their feelings hurt, and who apparently are void of any comprehensive analysis skills which allow for them to determine whether or not something was meant to be offensive.

This is not an attack to those who haven chosen to defend their cause (had it not been brought to the attention of the world that some Native Americans found the model's attire offensive, then not a single one of you would have chosen to speak out against it), but against those who implanted the ideals of cultural insensitivity behind an offenseless and playful idea that an underwear and bra company thought up.

 

[rootX]

Are you aware, in even the slightest sense, that different Native American tribes have different cultures? That they have occupied North America for, at the very least, 12,000 years? Do you know how many cultures would be woefully excluded from any kind of curriculum in schools, were they to take heed of your words and choose to act in your pity?

Here's what I said "It would be nice if they teach more about heritage in schools. Else, one day our heritage and culture will only be on bikinis or underwears.". I wasn't even talking about natives heritage! My argument was to make people aware that these religious and cultural symbols mean something they aren't just some things that you can put where you wish. You better educate yourself about the symbols before you use them.

When I was in school, we learned a bit about almost every major human civilization. In university, we were forced to take some society/anthropology related courses. That didn't educate me about everything about humans heritage but at least I am aware of the significance of it in our lives.

When was the last time that you gave the slightest damn about the Aleuts? The Alutiiq? The Yup'ik? How about the Inuits?

err.. few weeks ago I guess.

Whether or not it is culturally taboo for another Native American to steal another's headdress, and whether or not it is culturally taboo for a Native American woman to trounce ...

I have no clue what you are talking about here.

You feign compassion, yet I see empty words

I already said earlier (#47) I know nothing much about native cultures other than that "War Bonnet" plays high significance in some people lives.

 

[lisab]

I'm not exactly sure why this topic has triggered such passionate responses, but let's all remember - keep your posts respectful of other members.