Furor over Native American Fashion Costume

[rootX]

I'm not exactly sure why this topic has triggered such passionate responses, but let's all remember - keep your posts respectful of other members.

Thanks for reminder

I always end up getting caught in these religious/cultural threads!

 

[lisab]

Thanks for reminder

I always end up getting caught in these religious/cultural threads!

Me too !

 

[MarneMath]

Can someone fill me in? This story seemed pretty simple and I'm not entirely sure where all this discourse is coming from. It appears to me as if Victoria Secret used Native American headress that offended a group of people. Some within that group voiced concerns and informed Victoria Secret it was offensive. Victoria Secret apologized for being offensive.

So what's the issue? That someone got offended or...that Victoria Secret apologized. I'm actually rather clueless.

 

[rootX]

Can someone fill me in? This story seemed pretty simple and I'm not entirely sure where all this discourse is coming from. It appears to me as if Victoria Secret used Native American headress that offended a group of people. Some within that group voiced concerns and informed Victoria Secret it was offensive. Victoria Secret apologized for being offensive.

So what's the issue? That someone got offended or...that Victoria Secret apologized. I'm actually rather clueless.

The OP just wanted to know how use of headress could offend people. But I agree story is pretty simple.

 

[Vorde]

Can someone fill me in? This story seemed pretty simple and I'm not entirely sure where all this discourse is coming from. It appears to me as if Victoria Secret used Native American headress that offended a group of people. Some within that group voiced concerns and informed Victoria Secret it was offensive. Victoria Secret apologized for being offensive.

So what's the issue? That someone got offended or...that Victoria Secret apologized. I'm actually rather clueless.

My original question was asking why it is that this is seen as offensive. It's evolved (in my opinion) to a discussion about when it the sensitivities of specific cultures should affect the behavior of members of different cultures.

 

[MarneMath]

Ok that makes more sense now. Thank you all!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Should a German hate Americans due to WWII? German style houses are popular here: is it insensitive of us to build them because of all the Germans we killed?

The circle of hate goes round and round and is very difficult to keep track of.

As far as I know none of the Natives who objected to this VS outfit said anything about hating whites or calling whites racists. This is the only quote in the story linked to:

"Being a American Indian woman and mother, I am disgusted at the recent picture of your non-Native model dressed inappropriately with a war bonnet on her head, not to mention all the other culturally wrong messages this image sends to the world" wrote Charlene Hunt.

I suppose the other "culturally wrong" messages consist of the fact that silver/turquoise jewelry is a Southwest Native thing and wouldn't be worn by the same tribes that had war bonnets, plus whatever misuse of the jewelry this might represent (I don't happen to know what it stands for, if anything, but it might be religious or clan oriented).

They're not saying they hate white people. They are saying they don't like having their significant cultural things misrepresented, trivialized, and mixed with sex in order for white people to sell white people's products to other white people.

If no one is claiming the representation is accurate, how can one claim it is a misrepresentation?

I already answered this question but I'll try again making it more personal: how could you claim I was misrepresenting you if I called you, say, a murderer, as long as I didn't claim it was an accurate representation of you? The logic behind this question is ridiculous.

And, to be explicit, the misrepresentation is the implication that the War Bonnet was just a piece of Native fashion with no other significance; that any Indian, man, woman, or child could make and wear one. I've already explained what it actually means and why this isn't the case.

 

[micromass]

As far as I know none of the Natives who objected to this VS outfit said anything about hating whites or calling whites racists. This is the only quote in the story linked to:I suppose the other "culturally wrong" messages consist of the fact that silver/turquoise jewelry is a Southwest Native thing and wouldn't be worn by the same tribes that had war bonnets, plus whatever misuse of the jewelry this might represent (I don't happen to know what it stands for, if anything, but it might be religious or clan oriented).

They're not saying they hate white people. They are saying they don't like having their significant cultural things misrepresented, trivialized, and mixed with sex in order for white people to sell white people's products to other white people.

I already answered this question but I'll try again making it more personal: how could you claim I was misrepresenting you if I called you, say, a murderer, as long as I didn't claim it was an accurate representation of you? The logic behind this question is ridiculous.

And, to be explicit, the misrepresentation is the implication that the War Bonnet was just a piece of Native fashion with no other significance; that any Indian, man, woman, or child could make and wear one. I've already explained what it actually means and why this isn't the case.

Can I expect you are going to send angry letters to the manufacturers of these things: http://www.costumecraze.com/Traditional-Costumes-Indian-Costumes.html ??
If not, why??

 

[zoobyshoe]

Can I expect you are going to send angry letters to the manufacturers of these things: http://www.costumecraze.com/Traditional-Costumes-Indian-Costumes.html ??
If not, why??

I am not, because they don't bother me, but I'm not an Indian.

I am posting in this thread because I have no problem with Indians being bothered by it, and I think Victoria's Secret did the right thing in response to the complaints.

I used to make replicas of Indian Pipes and sell them at the swap meet. They were really well made and meant to be a respectful homage to the Natives. I was aware pipes are sacred to Natives, so I refused to sell to teenagers who seemed to be looking for pot pipes.

A lot of Indians came by to check me out. Some said vaguely negative things. About half realized I was respectful about it and didn't mind. One kind of militant Indian religious group declared them suitable for religious use, meaning it was OK for Indians to buy them and use them as prayer pipes. But then a shaman came to talk to me. I straight out asked him if he thought I should stop doing it. He wouldn't say yes or no. He paused a long time and said something like, "Some people who buy these are going to hang them on their wall as decorations." I took him to mean he didn't think that was a proper use for a pipe. So, I stopped making them.

I was very sad, but I like Indians and didn't want to offend them any more than I probably already had.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Point of view from a pueblo indian:
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/23/opinion-just-say-no-to-playing-indian/?hpt=hp_c3

I'm old now, but I spent a lot of my adult life living on the rez. I do not speak for them, but I have seen this same stuff forever.

Really intelligent Western people often do not "get" non-western cultures. I see that in most of the posts here. No need for disclaimers and proofs. We are all completely entitled to respond the we do. Just don't delude yourself into thinking you really understand it.

Largely this whole thing is a pretty much harmless cultural bypass. The only people who usually get what I mean here are ex-Peace Corps types who got into the whole gig. They get exactly what is going on.

Another simple fact: The Navajo culture is as foreign to a Pueblo indian as it is to you and me.

1. There is no such thing as a 'Native American'. They don't exist, they are REALLY different peoples.

2. No one person really speaks for them. Jenni speaks from her perspective. Just like Russ does not purport to speak for Monique.

Clearly I speak for none of them as well.