God's Existence: Beyond Existing and Nonexisting?

[fedorfan]

I don't know about atoms being alive or rocks being conscious, but we definitely came from somewhere. I don't know where we came from and I am not afraid to say I don't know, because, well, I really dont. We don't have much proof if any of an intelligent designer or evolution or both.

 

[mubashirmansoor]

No. But, that doesn't explain anything, or nothing.

Can't we define nothing as a nonexistent. Which doesn't exists at all?

 

[nannoh]

Can't we define nothing as a nonexistent. Which doesn't exists at all?

We can say anything we want. But that doesn't make what we say true. If there is more to the "concept of nothing" than just a "concept" then it cannot be defined since it does not exist. Sometimes we have to accept that there are "unknowable" conditions.

The concept of "zero" is Arabic

Arab contributions to mathematics and the introduction of the Zero
Regional, Science, 4/22/1998

Arab contributions to human civilization are noteworthy. In arithmetic the style of writing digits from right to left is an evidence of its Arab origin. For instance, the numeral for five hundred in English should be written as 005, not as 500 according to English's left-to-right reading style.

Another invention that revolutionized mathematics was the introduction of the number zero by Muhammad Bin Ahmad in 967 AD. Zero was introduced in the West as late as the beginning of the thirteenth century. Modern society takes the invention of the zero for granted, yet the Zero is a non-trivial concept, that allowed major mathematical breakthroughs.

Arab civilizations also made a great contribution to fractions and to the principle of errors, which is employed to solve Algebra problems arithmetically.

from
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html

I think what you are trying to qualify is the condition that may or may not have existed before the big bang. It is too speculative to suppose that there was "nothing" or "zero" before the big bang and it is too speculative to firmly acertain that there was a "big bang". There are only theories based on what we observe today with regard to these conditions and the theories apply, theoretically, to what happened 13.something billion years ago.

 

[PIT2]

No. The whole point is that water has properties** that neither hydrogen nor oxygen alone have. The properties result only from the combination.

** objectively, scientifically-definable properties, at the top of the list, that it is a polar molecule (which, incidentally, when combined with a few other properties make it unique in the universe in that it makes all life possible)

Are the electrons not already present in the hydrogen and oxygen molecules? If so, then what is the property that water has, but its molecules dont?

*Nevermind i see mubashirmansoor has already gone through this.

 

[mubashirmansoor]

We can say anything we want. But that doesn't make what we say true. If there is more to the "concept of nothing" than just a "concept" then it cannot be defined since it does not exist. Sometimes we have to accept that there are "unknowable" conditions.

Thats absoloutlty true, And as long as we don't have the reason for everything (atleast an idea) we'll have to believe in a superpower say God...

 

[Time is Unreal]

I will tell you this. I believe all things are "constant", and "present". In saying that, "all things" meaning matter, gravity, motion, energy, universe, anything you can fit in there. They and all things maybe, God exist in our present state. I think the whole perception of "time" throws us off when we are looking at how things came to be "present". I believe the only way is to stick with the facts. Deal with what is present, and try not too allow "time" to "confuse" us with what is real , and what is not. Perception of things plays a big part of what exists ,and what does not, and time could be looked at as just a mental measuring tool rather than actual one. Like a ruler for instance.
After saying that I will also give you my personal rather then scientific view is that, since you were throwing what if's; "What if" since all things are "present", and "constant" , and energy can not be created, nor destroyed then they always have been always will be, and thus is connected too eterninty meaning there is an association with God however your mind perceives him. If there is only a constant present it might be eternity, whether we can percieve in our mind or not. Long after this world is gone if ever, God forbid by the way, I think there will be a constant present no matter what type of life can, or cannot percieve the laws of physics.

 

[DaveC426913]

Well OK then.
10 char

 

[Time is Unreal]

Dave I know a lot of that sounds like babble but, I was throwing What if 's just to create some discussion about what we really do know. Maybe time as we know it is just another problem keeping us from the truth. If you have any physical proof of time and how it's can effect something like gravity other than using a clock hit the floor please explain, because I really would too understand the universe better. thx.

 

[heusdens]

Similiarly, we can ask if the set of all sets that contain themselves exist. Then we realize that we need a new set of axioms, because we've absolutely confused ourselves

You mean probably, wether the set of all sets that do not contain themselves exist, which is a famous paradox that lead to a revision of set theory to avoid these paradoxes.

 

[nannoh]

Thats absoloutlty true, And as long as we don't have the reason for everything (atleast an idea) we'll have to believe in a superpower say God...

I disagree.

As long as we don't have a reason for something we will be looking for one.

Some will fabricate the cause and some will investigate the cause. Fabricated reasoning will collapse on to its poorly fabricated support. Investigations will go on for centuries, with no assurances of finding a "reason' or cause.

 

[fedorfan]

I disagree.

As long as we don't have a reason for something we will be looking for one.

Some will fabricate the cause and some will investigate the cause. Fabricated reasoning will collapse on to its poorly fabricated support. Investigations will go on for centuries, with no assurances of finding a "reason' or cause.

Yeah, you arent really going to find a reason for anything. It all seems pretty pointless from our perspective, maybe when we die well have a new perspective and find out more things. Maybe.

 

[moe darklight]

why did god make creationists?

aha!

 

[nannoh]

It all seems pretty pointless from our perspective,

Actually, from our perspective the reason for everything is to support our progress. This, however, for the most part has been proven to be a correlative, egocentric delusion.

 

[moe_3_moe]

hey it is a great topic and i believe in the grey part not black or white ... i mean i can't say there is no god but i don't believe in religions ...

 

[nannoh]

i can't say there is no god

You just did.

 

[moe_3_moe]

ah yes ... goodpoint

 

[nannoh]

ah yes ... goodpoint

Any lightning strikes in your area round about now?!

 

[mubashirmansoor]

I disagree.

As long as we don't have a reason for something we will be looking for one.

Some will fabricate the cause and some will investigate the cause. Fabricated reasoning will collapse on to its poorly fabricated support. Investigations will go on for centuries, with no assurances of finding a "reason' or cause.

Well... But do you really mean that we can always find the reason for a specific problem... ?
I don't really want to opose your idea since it has been the same all the way upto this date, But its my personal opinion that at certain point we won't have the ability to go on anymore, to me it just sounds like "we can divide something into infinite pieces but we actually can't"

As I said, just my personal opinion...

 

[mosassam]

Did god create the universe or is he the universe? Why is it, if you don't know all the answers, then you must believe in something? What's the problem with just saying "I don't know"? Belief is possibly the most divisive and destructive force mankind has ever known. All wars and conflicts have belief at their core. Isn't belief in anything, including science, a way of handing over part of yourself to "something greater than yourself" - ie: not taking complete responsibility for your own life. How is this helpful?

 

[mubashirmansoor]

In that case are you actually saying that having theories is wrong since not yet proved?

 

[mosassam]

In that case are you actually saying that having theories is wrong since not yet proved?

Hi mubashirmansoor, I'm not sure if this is a response to my post or something earlier. Just in case it is to mine - I'm not saying anything is wrong.

 

[mubashirmansoor]

Hello mosassam, It was actually a response to your post, sorry for not indicating...

In that case, the presence of god can called a theory... Not yet proved...

 

[mosassam]

A theory can be simply an opinion or something that is testable, something that can incorporate facts and make predictions. I'm not sure what you mean by theory but I find it hard to concieve how you can realistically test for god

 

[mubashirmansoor]

By somehow trying to capture the light emited from the Earth about 3000-5000 years back and to check out if mosses, jesus or Muhammad ever talk with their gods... :)

 

[mosassam]

I did write the word 'realistically' in bold type, and I'm not sure that your suggestion fits into that category.

 

[ray b]

is god dead?
could a god be mortal?

if you think there was a creator
why does such a being need to continue to exist
after the creation is done?

how would a dead creator be different from
one who got bored and no longer cares
or one who is busy on new different projects elsewhere
and has no time for finished work

BTW I don't believe in fairytales
but why must a god live forever

and or could a ''god'' be a random act
by a passing alien that creates life
without intent
like a bit of trash tossed out

 

[mubashirmansoor]

Lets not forget that the whole topic of god is man made and that we really can't prove its existence using any experiment... It's the logic which can prove if its yes or no...

So... yes you are right it was wrong to say theory, but hypothesis will go :)

 

[mosassam]

Wow Ray, that's so totally deep! Untold bro.

 

[mosassam]

It's the logic which can prove if its yes or no...

Logic can't actually prove anything, it's just a mechanism. Give it a premise, wind it up and let it go. And hypothesis is pretty much the same as wild guess. Here's a hypothesis for you - about 99.99% of people who believe in god do so because their parents do. If correct, what can this hypothesis tell us about programming/conditioning?

 

[mubashirmansoor]

is god dead?
could a god be mortal?

if you think there was a creator
why does such a being need to continue to exist
after the creation is done?

how would a dead creator be different from
one who got bored and no longer cares
or one who is busy on new different projects elsewhere
and has no time for finished work

BTW I don't believe in fairytales
but why must a god live forever

and or could a ''god'' be a random act
by a passing alien that creates life
without intent
like a bit of trash tossed out

I don't really believe in what you say about fairy tales...
As a reply I would like to qoute a sentence from Avvaiyar:

What we have learned is like handfull of earth;
What we have yet to learn is like the whole world

As a result from my point of view its too early to say what you said...

 

[DaveC426913]

By somehow trying to capture the light emited from the Earth about 3000-5000 years back and to check out if mosses, jesus or Muhammad ever talk with their gods... :)

You might be able to with Jesus or Muhammed, but to be able to tell if mosses ever talk with their gods would be much harder. You'd need a botanist and some time lapse technology...

 

[mosassam]

You'd also need a top class lip reader (or moss reader). As for the existence of god, look to the work of Ilya Prigogine on Dissipative Structures

 

[fedorfan]

In short we know nothing for sure, though nonexistence seems like the most reasonable thing after death and nothing is reasonable as far as entities or higher presences, we know nothing at all about them.

 

[mubashirmansoor]

Lets hope that someday we would be able to see a light in this infinite darkness...

 

[fedorfan]

Lets hope that someday we would be able to see a light in this infinite darkness...

Yeah, hopefully.