How Can I Approach a Pretty Girl at My University Despite My Social Anxiety?

[nuuskur]

I still can't take this recent argument too objectively since it is Absolutely INSISTED that this alpha figure is some godlike figure in our society. I can agree to an extent that there are people who DO steal the room ( cough* Bill Clinton *cough*). Labeling alpha and beta and omega and gamma and who knows what else is still like an inner cry if anything, an attempt at imitation, a severe insecurity.

All cruelty springs from weakness - Seneca :)
Labeling is cruel and unjust.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You've given no proof about your claims. Just because a topic is a hot seller on Amazon does not pass muster here as proof that it is generally accepted as credible.

Do you know of any peer-reviewed literature that we can discuss that would bolster your beliefs? Because I think you're forming your opinions based on feelings, not facts.

His claim #1 was backed up by the link posted by Pythagorean. The point that site makes is that it is not "dominance" that makes the most popular guy the most popular, it is his being "prestigious" :

The dominance route is paved with intimidation, threats, and coercion, and is fueled byhubristic pride. Hubristic pride is associated with arrogance, conceit, anti-social behaviors, unstable relationships, low levels of conscientiousness and high levels of disagreeableness, neuroticism, narcissism, and poor mental health outcomes. Hubristic pride, along with its associated feelings of superiority and arrogance, facilitates dominance by motivating behaviors such as aggression, hostility, and manipulation.

In contrast, prestige is paved with the emotional rush of accomplishment, confidence, and success, and is fueled by authentic pride. Authentic pride is associated with pro-social and achievement-oriented behaviors, agreeableness, conscientiousness, satisfying interpersonal relationships, and positive mental health. Critically, authentic pride is associated with genuine self-esteem (considering yourself a person of value, not considering yourself superior to others). Authentic pride, along with its associated feelings of confidence and accomplishment, facilitates behaviors that are associated with attaining prestige. People who are confident, agreeable, hard-working, energetic, kind, empathic, nondogmatic, and high in genuine self-esteem inspire others and cause others to want to emulate them.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/07/the-myth-of-the-alpha-male/
His claim #2, if not already true, seems to be becoming true. The concept is becoming more widely known.

 

[psparky]

Glad I could spur such deep conversation.

Say you take 10 random women on a week long camping trip. Let them all interact over a weeks time in the woods. Eventually, the alpha female will make her presence known. Sometimes, she makes her presence known right away...lol.

Now say you take 10 random men on a week long camping trip. Same thing...eventually the alpha male will show up.

Now that the rankings have been established...Alpha, beta, omega and everything inbetween.

Now, let's put the 10 men and 10 women together in an additional week long camping trip. Let's assume everyone is single.

The alpha will go for the alpha, the beta will go for the beta, omega...omega...etc. And of course there would be small variations, but for the most part it will be true.

Same is identical in any Lion Pride, pack of wolves, etc...

 

[Pythagorean]

Glad I could spur such deep conversation.

Say you take 10 random women on a week long camping trip. Let them all interact over a weeks time in the woods. Eventually, the alpha female will make her presence known. Sometimes, she makes her presence known right away...lol.

Now say you take 10 random men on a week long camping trip. Same thing...eventually the alpha male will show up.

Now that the rankings have been established...Alpha, beta, omega and everything inbetween.

Now, let's put the 10 men and 10 women together in an additional week long camping trip. Let's assume everyone is single.

The alpha will go for the alpha, the beta will go for the beta, omega...omega...etc. And of course there would be small variations, but for the most part it will be true.

Same is identical in any Lion Pride, pack of wolves, etc...

In the wolf and lion packs, the alleged alpha gets all the females and sires most of the children. But did you know alpha wolf theory was debunked? It turns out alpha behavior only emerges in captivity.

In the wild, wolves pack into families: a father, a mother, and their children.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html

So this pseudoscience of alpha males for humans is based on bad science for wolves. Also, you told us a story about camping, you didn't provide evidence.

 

[Pythagorean]

And if there was any question that alpha theory for humans wasn't based off of wolves, just look at the pua community:

http://www.pualingo.com/alpha-male-alpha/

You can see the pseudoscience seeping out pretty clearly there and you can see that the "social dominance" trait is an important factor to pua theorists - which we've shown in the literature not to have as big of an impact as prestige.

Also, for convenience - here's a list of common characteristics of pseudoscience. How many can you find in this thread?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Characteristics_of_pseudoscience

 

[psparky]

Again, I totally respect your opinion. I'm just going by what I've seen in my brief 45 years on this planet.

That camping scenario I gave would be a fascinating study for someone. Just do it with 18 year olds fresh out of high school. Although the same thing would happen with 40 year olds as well. Come to think of it, 80 years of age would be same thing.

Just my opinion. Either you agree, or you don't. Its ok either way.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Glad I could spur such deep conversation.

I think your point with this remark is to redefine your berserker posts in this thread as "controlling the room."

"Berserker" is an exaggeration, but it's pretty easy to get people's feather's ruffled by not listening and reacting to what they actually say, continuing to assert your stance dogmatically, as Pythagorean pointed out. You jumped into the thread spewing advice without even realizing the OP had already "gotten the girl," meaning you hadn't even read the thread past the OP, and you didn't seem to have read the article he linked to based on studies that debunk the idea women are attracted to mere 'dominance'.

You said, finally:

Just my opinion. Either you agree, or you don't. Its ok either way.

But as Lisab pointed out, when your bluff is called here, on this forum, you have to provide scientific back-up to your claims and/or opinions. Don't suggest we perform a study, you scower the internet and find the study that supports your assertion.

 

[psparky]

I think your point with this remark is to redefine your berserker posts in this thread as "controlling the room."

"Berserker" is an exaggeration, but it's pretty easy to get people's feather's ruffled by not listening and reacting to what they actually say, continuing to assert your stance dogmatically, as Pythagorean pointed out. You jumped into the thread spewing advice without even realizing the OP had already "gotten the girl," meaning you hadn't even read the thread past the OP, and you didn't seem to have read the article he linked to based on studies that debunk the idea women are attracted to mere 'dominance'.

You said, finally:


But as Lisab pointed out, when your bluff is called here, on this forum, you have to provide scientific back-up to your claims and/or opinions. Don't suggest we perform a study, you scower the internet and find the study that supports your assertion.

Ahhhh...so everything about women is scientific fact...and if I really want to find the truth about something I need to look on the internet.

Gotcha. Thanks for the amazing advice.

And if you read re-read carefully, Lisa B mentioned that to Rick B...
Rick B and myself totally agree. I'm ok with that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This doesn't make any sense. Are you claiming that there are not certain traits which most women find desirable? (i.e. confidence, charisma, etc.)

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

and possessing these traits is what we're calling "alphaness"... Which part exactly do you not agree with?

Sure, but all alphas die at the altar.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The definition of alpha male seems to be in dispute. Zooby suggests that it refers only to dominance. But as mentioned, there are concepts like confidence, decisiveness, leadership, success...

Then again, it is said that women want to sleep with alphas but marry betas.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ahhhh...so everything about women is scientific fact...and if I really want to find the truth about something I need to look on the internet.

Gotcha. Thanks for the amazing advice.

You miss the point completely. Everthing about this forum is scientific. If you want to post here, you'll abide by that.

If an assertion is made about women, or anything, science can study that assertion to see if there's any evidence supporting it, as with the studies that backed the article linked to by Pythagorean. A lot of junk has been debunked this way. Your 45 years of experience can easily have lead you astray if, all that time, you're operating under a confirmation bias or any number of other logical fallacies and cognitive biases. If you don't want your assertions challenged by any logic or science, this isn't the place for you.

 

[psparky]

You miss the point completely. Everthing about this forum is scientific. If you want to post here, you'll abide by that.

If an assertion is made about women, or anything, science can study that assertion to see if there's any evidence supporting it, as with the studies that backed the article linked to by Pythagorean. A lot of junk has been debunked this way. Your 45 years of experience can easily have lead you astray if, all that time, you're operating under a confirmation bias or any number of other logical fallacies and cognitive biases. If you don't want your assertions challenged by any logic or science, this isn't the place for you.

I speak scientifically in regards to electrical engineering. In the relationships and love forum...especially under the "I want to say hi to a pretty girl" thread...Scientific facts don't apply!

If a mentor states that I may not post opinion in the love and relationships forum, believe me, I will never come back.
But that's just silly. Relationships and love are the biggest mystery in the universe!

 

[Pythagorean]

I speak scientifically in regards to electrical engineering. In the relationships and love forum...especially under the "I want to say hi to a pretty girl" thread...Scientific facts don't apply!

If a mentor states that I may not post opinion in the love and relationships forum, believe me, I will never come back.
But that's just silly. Relationships and love are the biggest mystery in the universe!

You have to be careful about separating truth statements from opinion. You've gone beyond opinions of relationships and love and made predictions about mating selection in human behavior (post #143) and that can be measured. When you make such predictions, it's not really an opinion - the statement can be valued as true or false independent of observer reference frame.

You must also be wary of guilt by association. "Alpha male" is a term used by pseudoscientific community with ideas very similar to the behavioral biology definitions that seek to establish authority in the subject through usage of scientific terminology, which basically promises to get males laid. You also aligned yourself with Rick who claimed that

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

and

this is basic psychology.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I speak scientifically in regards to electrical engineering. In the relationships and love forum...especially under the "I want to say hi to a pretty girl" thread...Scientific facts don't apply!

I've just explained how they do here at PF. If you want to make assertions about how humans rank up just like animals, you have to back that up now with some science, because Pythagorean has pretty much take that notion apart.

If a mentor states that I may not post opinion in the love and relationships forum, believe me, I will never come back.
But that's just silly. Relationships and love are the biggest mystery in the universe!

But you're not saying you're clueless about this "biggest mystery." You've asserted you've got it figured out and that others who don't follow your lead are going to end up lonely, standing on the sidelines. Mentor Lisab already asked for some scientific backup from Rick, so you should already be aware the Relationship Forum is not an opinion-based free-for-all.

 

[nuuskur]

The last few pages, or I'm not even sure how many, I lost count, have been about "my way or the highway". Only now do I feel like I am allowed an opinion of my own. The latest is a quite convinient finale for the race, though.

 

[Rick21383]

You've given no proof about your claims. Just because a topic is a hot seller on Amazon does not pass muster here as proof that it is generally accepted as credible.

Do you know of any peer-reviewed literature that we can discuss that would bolster your beliefs? Because I think you're forming your opinions based on feelings, not facts.

Now you're just being naïve. What wild claims do you feel I'm making?

You don't need per-reviewed literature to realize that "males who possesses certain traits (such as confidence, charisma, etc.) are more successful at attracting women, as well as grabbing the attention of strangers (male or female), than those who lack these traits". This is a fact, not a feeling. Just open your eyes and look around. Everything I've stated is easily observable.

 

[Rick21383]

The definition of alpha male seems to be in dispute. Zooby suggests that it refers only to dominance. But as mentioned, there are concepts like confidence, decisiveness, leadership, success...

Then again, it is said that women want to sleep with alphas but marry betas.

That's exactly the problem... and disputing the definition of alpha is pointless.

Whether Zooby and others like it or not, there now exists a definition of alpha that involves "confidence, decisiveness, leadership, success, etc."

Failing to understand that this is a real thing is naïve and is also part of the reason some of the folks in this forum have issues with women. As soon as you start trying to analyze this sort of stuff like it's a physics equation (or demanding peer reviewed research lol) you've already lost the game.

 

[nuuskur]

Does failing to care about such things make me not pass some snobby standards' checklist?

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's exactly the problem... and disputing the definition of alpha is pointless.

The link http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/07/the-myth-of-the-alpha-male/ links to this story http://laist.com/2014/05/24/what_we_know_about_elliot_rodger_th.php :

Although authorities have yet to confirm the identity of the gunman in last night's http://laist.com/2014/05/24/7_dead_in_mass_murder_drive-by_near.php, KCAL reached out to director Peter Rodger and an attorney confirmed that Rodger's 22 year-old son Elliot was "involved" in the shooting.

Elliot Rodger uploaded a video to his https://www.youtube.com/user/ElliotRodger last night (that has since been taken down) where he spoke of a "day of retribution" when he would have his "revenge against humanity" for his loneliness and sexual frustration. He spoke of targeting women and proclaimed himself "the true alpha male."

"I take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one, the true alpha male. Yes, after I have annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I'll take to the streets of Isla Vista and slay every single person I see there. All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure while I've had to rot in loneliness all these years. They all look down upon me every time I tried to join them, they've all treated me like a mouse..."

...Daily Kos dives further into Rodger's YouTube activity, highlighting that he was a subscriber to a multitude of pick-up artist and "men's rights" accounts, a likely perpetuator of Rodger's misogynistic worldview.

From the PU site posted by Pythagorean:

In animal hierarchies, the Alpha Male is the most dominant, and typically the physically strongest member of the group. For example, in wolf packs, the “alpha wolf” is the strongest member of the pack, and is the leader of the group. This position of leadership is often achieved by killing or defeating the previous Alpha Male in combat. Alpha wolves have first access to food as well as mating privileges with the females of the pack.

Social status among human social groups is less rigidly defined than in the animal kingdom, but there are some recognizable parallels. Although people don’t often engage in physical violence to achieve dominance, there are still recognizable leaders in different fields who have wide access to material resources and women.
- See more at: http://www.pualingo.com/alpha-male-alpha/#sthash.gODE0tuq.dpuf

So, you see, there are ideas and notions about the "alpha male" that are being purveyed by the PUA community which are both garbled versions of the way animals actually behave, and also pump prone males up to being aggressive with alleged parallels between people and wolves and other animals.

I like the fact Pythagorean has questioned all this because, regardless of the fact we all agree that (what I would now call for the sake of discussion) prestigious men exist, the PUA community is making money off hapless guys selling snake oil. You dangle the prospect of being "the top wolf" in front of guys who have been low in status for years and some will pay to get your "secret." I've read a fair amount of the PUA material online, however much of it is free, and it's clear the bulk of it is elaborate enticement to buy some book or expensive course. The "alphas" are simply exploiting the "omegas".

Rather than let people be rendered acritical by a bunch of jargon primarily designed to get them to use their credit card, I think it's a fine idea to take all the concepts apart and have a look at their origin and function.

 

[Rick21383]

The link http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/07/the-myth-of-the-alpha-male/ links to this story http://laist.com/2014/05/24/what_we_know_about_elliot_rodger_th.php :
From the PU site posted by Pythagorean:
So, you see, there are ideas and notions about the "alpha male" that are being purveyed by the PUA community which are both garbled versions of the way animals actually behave, and also pump prone males up to being aggressive with alleged parallels between people and wolves and other animals.

I like the fact Pythagorean has questioned all this because, regardless of the fact we all agree that (what I would now call for the sake of discussion) prestigious men exist, the PUA community is making money off hapless guys selling snake oil. You dangle the prospect of being "the top wolf" in front of guys who have been low in status for years and some will pay to get your "secret." I've read a fair amount of the PUA material online, however much of it is free, and it's clear the bulk of it is elaborate enticement to buy some book or expensive course. The "alphas" are simply exploiting the "omegas".

Rather than let people be rendered acritical by a bunch of jargon primarily designed to get them to use their credit card, I think it's a fine idea to take all the concepts apart and have a look at their origin and function.

In all honesty, several members of this forum would benefit greatly from taking in some of these techniques. I'm not saying everyone should start dressing like a clown and doing everything these books/videos tell you but those who are completely clueless about what attracts women would absolutely improve their chances by learning some of the basic concepts. As a whole, the "PUA community" is a joke and yes, these self proclaimed pick up artists are just trying to make money but the reality is that the general concepts are fairly sound.

What some of you don't seem to realize is that these concepts are not new... they've just been given different labels. Flirtatiously "picking on" a girl is now called negging. etc. These things have always been around and have always worked, at least in my lifetime. It just hasn't been until recently that people have given these "techniques" actual names.

Yet, for some reason, many clueless guys keep telling themselves that this is just BS and they convince themselves that if they just keep trying...one day...they'll get that hot nerdy girl if they just keep white knighting and complimenting her. Not going to happen fellas.

 

[Pythagorean]

Negging is underhanded, though. It's a way to establish power in a relationship through manufacturing a need for validation.

I think most people that get friend-zoned deserve it to some extent - they typically have expectations beyond what they communicate (i.e. they pretend to be a noble friend in order to get in a girls' pants). Being comfortable with your sexuality is important if you want to participate in sex culture, but there's very seldom one single guy "controlling the room" and getting all the women's "focus" - most social gatherings consist of more dyadic relationships - there are often several confident people (both male and female) practicing courting behaviors on each other at one time. Not a bunch of women practicing courting behavior with a single alpha male in the room.

 

[Rick21383]

Negging is underhanded, though. It's a way to establish power in a relationship through manufacturing a need for validation.

I think most people that get friend-zoned deserve it to some extent - they typically have expectations beyond what they communicate (i.e. they pretend to be a noble friend in order to get in a girls' pants). Being comfortable with your sexuality is important if you want to participate in sex culture, but there's very seldom one single guy "controlling the room" and getting all the women's "focus" - most social gatherings consist of more dyadic relationships - there are often several confident people (both male and female) practicing courting behaviors on each other at one time. Not a bunch of women practicing courting behavior with a single alpha male in the room.

I don't think it's underhanded at all. Attractive girls are used to guys smothering them with attention and putting them on a pedestal. So when Beta Steve starts white knighting her, he's going to get shot down immediately in most cases.

Throwing a couple negs her way will lower her perceived value of herself. She'll then start wondering why you're not complimenting her like everyone else (that comes later) and BAM you have her attention. This is where you start escalating things.

I'm not sure why you're so reluctant to admit that people who possesses the traits we've been discussing in this thread do control the room and gain peoples attention more than those who don't. I think you're taking things way to literally. Unless Tom Cruise or Bill Clinton (he possesses extremely high social intelligence) walk into a room there will probably not be a SINGLE person controlling everything, you are correct on that...

But if you could observe a random party with 100 attendees, there are going to be some people standing off by themselves essentially ignored by the rest of the group, and then there's going to be some people that project an aura of chill confidence and swagger. Women can sense this and, if you pay attention, you'll see them breaking eye contact with whatever beta is trying to chat them up in order to look at the person they see as more interesting.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yet, for some reason, many clueless guys keep telling themselves that this is just BS and they convince themselves that if they just keep trying...one day...they'll get that hot nerdy girl if they just keep white knighting and complimenting her. Not going to happen fellas.

Um...didn't you read what happened to the originator of this thread?

 

[zoobyshoe]

In all honesty, several members of this forum would benefit greatly from taking in some of these techniques.

In my experience here, the people with the most desperate need of fixin' have disorders that defy fixing like Asperger's and Social Anxiety Disorders. It's in the nature of these things that the person is unable to function in an easygoing manner in social situations.

 

[TheKracken]

I tend to be pretty good with the ladies. Then when texting comes into play I become extremely disinterested when dey talk like dis. Then using wrong forms of (to, too, two). The joys of current college women...

 

[Firedog89]

Here's a little story back in high school there was a girl who was always studying. I had a crush on her. I am frankly shy but all I did was sit next to her in front of her and just hang. When she wasn't studying I would drop in a comment then patiently back to just hanging around just hanging by her avoiding the constant staring that you may get when doing nothing. Before you know it, one day we were walking home and before you know it we were holding hands. We never dated but we walked together and it escalated because of patience. All it takes is a bit of courage and patience. Let us know what happened.

 

[B3NR4Y]

I'll update I guess, we are still together- she is visiting family in Pennsylvania currently and I'm spending the holidays alone, but I don't mind. She's great. The semester starts on the 14th but I'll see her on the 12th. This post will be fleshed out when I have time.

Outside of the relationship, I'm joining the Navy. That should be fun.

 

[TheKracken]

Congrats! You should post a picture of the new lovely couple. Also, congrats on the decision to join the navy!

 

[MarneMath]

1) Don't post a picture!
2)Congratulations, I'm glad you found some happiness!
3)Don't join the Navy!...wait can you even join with sclerosis?