I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

[Borek]

Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.

 

[lisab]

You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.

 

[Gokul43201]

Huh? Ignoring air resistance, the integral diverges to infinity as the mass ratio goes to zero. With enough stages, you could launch a rocket to any orbit using any propellant.

Oops, that's right. So, all we can say is that ignoring drag and inefficiency in the engine, this sets an upper bound on the mass ratio that is smaller than 10%. If you invert that, it's over 90% fuel - and this number assumes the fuel has no mass, despite it taking up over 90% of the total mass. But that already looks like the typical value for a single stage rocket.

 

[Astronuc]

Read page 2 of
Hydrogen Peroxide for Propulsion and Power Applications: A Swift Perspective
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2004ESASP.557E...1R/0000001.002.html

MSDS for Rocket Grade HP - >70%
http://msds.fmc.com/msds/100000010535-MSDS_US-E.pdf

http://www.fmcchemicals.com/Products/HydrogenPeroxide/PropulsionGrade/tabid/1506/Default.aspx - see the safety presentation regarding handling and storage.

 

[redargon]

This is really fun chatting and getting everyone worked up, but I'm still a little surprised that the OP hasn't been warned (or banned) for trolling yet, especially considering his posts in this and other threads. He's really just making fun of this forum and its members and, although some of the resulting discussions (between experienced pfers) is interesting, I feel that it is somewhat degrading.

 

[monroelkjr]

Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus

 

[Redbelly98]

Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus

From what I've read here, no, it does not appear to be a serious thread.

 

[monroelkjr]

Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe

 

[turbo]

Welcome, Monroe. If you want to use the forum's notation tools, you can put [ sub ] and [ /sub ] (without spaces) tags around the parts you want to show up as subscripts like I_sp It might save confusion for those who are not familiar with the term specific impulse.

 

[monroelkjr]

T-1
Thanks! And hey that’s cool I wish the forum on the Space Fellowship had that! So where are we at here? Peroxide is a safe fuel as far a rocket fuel goes. You don’t need 90% to experiment with. You can distill 30% by freezing to 70% and that’s good for experiments. Of course be safe, duh. It is a strong Oxidizer! But this is a physics forum right? Hey if you kill yourself that’s not my fault. A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe

 

[Redbelly98]

Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe

Welcome to PF Monroe

It's a pretty good bet that people here would welcome discussion by a legit N-Prize contestant.

Since you're in a competition, how much are you willing to divulge about your team's effort?

 

[Astronuc]

The points being made by critics of the OP is that the OP lacks credibility as evidenced by tossing out things like "Were going to get the hydrogen peroxide from Walgreens." and the dismissive comments as to hazard posed by Rocket Grade H₂O₂. I doubt any team will put a nano-satellite in orbit for less than $3500, or £999.99, which is actually about $1467.00 at today's exchange rate.

The cost of the launch, but not ground facilities, must fall within a budget of £999.99. Entrants for the RV Prize may exceed this budget, but must demonstrate recovery of hardware such that the per-launch cost remains within £999.99.

So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

Call me skeptical.

http://www.n-prize.com/
http://spacefellowship.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=52

The prizes will be awarded to the first persons or groups to put into orbit around the Earth a satellite with a mass of between 9.99 and 19.99 grams, and to prove that it has completed at least 9 orbits.

 

[turbo]

A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe

Hey, Monroe, have you looked into the possibility of a central solid-fuel booster flanked by a couple of outboard solid-fuel ramjet boosters? If you could get to adequate ram velocities using a mix of solid fuel and oxidizer in the main booster and then trigger the ramjets, it would save you a lot of weight not to have to carry oxidizer for the ramjets (as long as the craft is still in a dense-enough atmosphere to supply the oxygen.) Just a thought.

 

[monroelkjr]

Red
Thanks! Well, considering the effort required to actually accomplish something like this. I can divulge quite a bit. I will help out other guy's that are interested and give information on were to start were to look and questions that have non-hypothetical answers. I don't know everything about anything so you know.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

We will permit serious discussion, just not the silliness.

So, Monroe, is this you with the rocket?
http://sandiegospace.org/2009/01/18/n-prize-teams-make-progress/

Maybe BobG can track and verify the 9 orbits for each team. For a price.

 

[monroelkjr]

Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

T-1
One of the teams (Nebula) is using that method. We are solid fuel guys. And we are high altitude launch guys (20 miles).

Aeronuc
No, that’s not me that’s Basil Attal. The team XO.

There is a TV News interview and a radio broadcast in the media section of the website as well as links to other news about the team. We were secluded to speak at the Space Access conference this year however I could not make it.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe

I know of several folks who do high altitude rocketry, I would take those folks seriously if they go after this. I very skeptical of anyone starting from scratch, and really don't know what they are doing. I just hope no one injures/harms themselves or others.

Monroe, can you say anything abou the legal requirements regarding propellant and permissions to launch? I imagine there are safety issues considering one would be lauching through a nation's airspace, and one would not want to shootdown a commerical, private or military aircraft, although the odds of a collision are probably very low.

Also, with regard to the 9.99 - 19.99 gm payload - I'm thinking more space debris here. I don't see anything recoverable for those going for re-entry. Better shield it with HfC or TaC. Not much room for a parachute, eh?

 

[Iyafrady]

Hi monroe, this is Iyafrady of team capricorn from the south western US.Do you know how many teams there are in total currently?

We are just beginning the development process at my university and we have several people that are willing to help.

 

[Dadface]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?

 

[signerror]

Engineers:

An LEO launch is not a ballistic trajectory. How do you get a 20-gram rocket to control itself? How does it rotate? How does it even know which way it's oriented?

How do you fit a long range radio transmitter, with a power supply, in those same 20 grams?

How do you get the incredible delta-V required without multiple rocket stages? (Has any amateur rocket ever had a staged design?)

How do you expect to vastly outperform every amateur rocket in history, with the same technology and a fraction of the budget? Doesn't prior experience suggest the scale of this problem is wildly greater than what you plan?

 

[signerror]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.

No, I think they mean what they say.

Surely it's impossible?

Very nearly.

http://www.n-prize.com/

It's the enthusiasts who have unwarranted optimism.

 

[Astronuc]

Interestingly, AIAA has no position statement on the N-Prize.

 

[Iyafrady]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?

A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!

 

[signerror]

N-Prize competitors. I'd like to see a simple back-of-the-envelope design as proof of principle, that this actually feasible. Don't reveal any of your secrets: just show us that the basic principle is sound, that what appear to be ridiculous constraints can in fact be satisfied, and simultaneously.

 

[monroelkjr]

Astronuc
Very valid points you have there. I'll do my best to answer them for you.

Legal: 90% of our effort so far has been in the legal issues.

1) Propellant
ATF Class 4 low explosive permit and storage magazines as well as mobile transport magazines.

2) DOT Hazardous materials transport certifications

3) FAA experimental launch permit and or wavers

4) FCC satellite communications waver

5) DOD flight plan and wavers as well as mission abort certifications

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)

We had to clear a launch site and provide insurance as well. It's a long story you can dig up at the N-Prize Google group. This is a very simplified list but you get the just of it.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)

I believe it. It goes outside the borders and one doesn't know where it will land.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe

Thanks. I just want the OP to appreciate the legal matters involved.

I think the drag at 100 km will certainly limit the number of orbits, especially for 20 g mass.

 

[Dadface]

A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!

You make me laugh Iyafrady...enormous chuckles and belly rumbles in abundance.

 

[monroelkjr]

Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe

 

[signerror]

Here's one idea:

The 30.5 meter (100 foot) diameter balloon was made of 0.127 mm (0.005 inch) thick metalized Mylar polyester film and was successfully used to redirect transcontinental and intercontinental telephone, radio, and television signals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_satellite

Maybe you could built a satelloon and track it passively by its microwave reflectivity (radar). A back-of-the-envelope suggests a maximum size of ~20cm, to keep within the weight limit. Not sure if that is detectable.

 

[monroelkjr]

Signerror
A simple back-of-the-envelope design. That would be nice. Check out the Team Wiki and the N-Prize document there. I will try to awnser questions for you guys that's the best I can do. You guys are a lively bunch that's cool. I'm glad to meet you all. I'm pretty busy at the moment and will do the best I can to get back to you.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, our satellite for the prize is a 1-meter square maylar cube. Ejected from our tracking satellite that helps us locate the cubesat not to confuse this with a 10cm square "cubesat" design that is pretty common. We intend to launch regular cubesats after the N-Prize mission.

Monroe

 

[Iyafrady]

Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe

Thanks man!...Funny how this is the first encouraging post in a 10 page thread.

 

[Borek]

10 page thread.

Nine.

 

[monroelkjr]

Nine is the magic # for the N-Prize :)

Monroe