I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

[Iyafrady]

Nine.

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

 

[monroelkjr]

Iyafrady
Hey, If your really going to compete in the N-Prize. Get used to it :)

Monroe

 

[Ivan Seeking]

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

Perhaps you would happier somewhere else.

 

[turbo]

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

Sorry, but you have been throwing out wild claims including you can achieve orbit with a a hydrogen peroxide thruster (no fuel to oxidize), that hydrogen peroxide is stable and safe to use (no appreciation of the hazards of storing/handling strong oxidizers in the presence of catalyzing metals or combustible materials), and that you could get your hydrogen peroxide from a discount store and have it distilled by the guys in the chemistry department. Really!

When I was a process chemist in a pulp mill, we made our own chlorine dioxide on-site using (in part) Sodium Chlorate. Nobody that hooked up rail-cars, valved the chlorate to the storage tank or Rapson generator, or could be exposed to that oxidizer was allowed to be in the work area unless they were fully suited up, and were hosed down to remove residual chlorate before taking off the protective clothing. There were safety showers and full-immersion dunk tanks everywhere in that area. Twice a year, we were treated to a demonstration of what would happen to a scarecrow with cloth shirt and pants and leather shoes and gloves that had been wetted with chlorate solution and dried. The chief of security would flick a cigarette toward the dummy, and if you were close (maybe 10-15' or so), you'd have to turn away to avoid the worst of the heat. Your poor understanding or the dangers of strong oxidants will not save you should you manage to secure some concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Wood, paper, your clothing, and a wide variety of metals, salts, and corrosion products can all react energetically (even explosively) with that liquid.

Follow some of the links that we have given you in these "negative" posts so you will understand the dangers of working with this stuff. I don't believe that you are actively pursuing this project, especially since you haven't studied the MSDS info for your propellant of choice. The fact that your "specialist" in orbital mechanics has been grounded and can't use his computer is not inspiring, either.

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, rockets as a hobby can kill you and ruin it for everyone elce as well. Thats why I stress the scientific method and note taking. But it's pretty fair the ATF will get you if you don't watch out! You have to know what you are doing and prove it.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

Signerror
I just saw the other questions you asked and they are very good ones also. The rocket is launched from @100.000ft (20 miles) this first stage has a 4 motor cluster that fires 2 at a time for 2 stages there are 2 boosters so there are 4 stages there follow? The rocket spins at @300 RPM. There is a horizon sensor that senses the apogee of the rocket and fires the fifth stage; the sensors look out at a 12 degree angle. The satellite is deployed and is spin stabilized and has front facing booster. When the satellite reaches the other side of the world this motor will be facing in the right direction and boost the satellite into a circular orbit. This satellite weighs about 3 pounds and has tracking and telemetry. The N-Prize sat. Is folded up in this small package and is deployed from it. The tracking signal from the main satellite allows us to locate the passive N-Prize satellite. However that’s just for us the haystack radar facility will have no problem locating it.

Monroe

 

[Dadface]

Monroe to realize this challenge you must remain within budget so one small question...Have you estimated the total transport costs?

 

[misgfool]

So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

If ground structures are not in the costs, I think that price could be reached with a space elevator type solution.

 

[monroelkjr]

Dadface
The total estimated cost is @$250.000 there are no transport cost the rocket is built in a hanger on site. Don't worry about the rocket cost if you get sponcers for the materials or donations. You just have to prove where you got everything. Hey if you don't want to do it you won't be able too that's for sure. There are ways to do it if you really want to. Otherwise we would'nt be doing it. You have to look into it farther and ask the questions about cost. If you just gloss over the rules you won't get it. Thats all I can say, I've not said this before and I'm not saying it again. So there you go. I don't have any special ties to the prize that help us I've just asked the right questions. The legal issues are the problem. However if you follow the rules and do what's required legaly that can be done as well. It has taken me 8 months of everyday working on the legal issues to get to this point. We are now ready to start building.

Monroe

 

[maze]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?

 

[monroelkjr]

That's a little to hypothetical there Maze. I will say that might get you to space but you have to get to space and turn left (or some direction) and go 8km/s to get into orbit. We were at one point going to use a special compound Light Gas Gun to acheve orbital velostiy. From space that would work however proving it might prove difficult.

M

 

[monroelkjr]

One more thing anything launched from Earth will re-enter the atmosphere at the point it left the atmosphere without a boost at apogee. Escape velosity is leaving the gravitational field of the Earth and outward bound.

M

 

[maze]

Hmm interesting. Thinking out loud, you could send the payload to the upper atmosphere in a high-altitude balloon, then detonate the explosives up there to achieve sufficient orbital velocity for an ellipse. To give a boost at the apogee and avoid hitting the atmosphere on the way back, you could have 12 smaller sub-payloads in a dodecahedral shape, with a secondary explosive charge in the middle. One of the pieces is bound to go in the right direction.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?

The quantity of explosives and energy required would be enormous. That's the point of rockets. They focus their energy and use it in a calculated fashion. Imagine trying to get a canonball out of a canon into orbit. A canon is a very crude projectile launcher using a "shaped" explosion though similar to your scenario of simply placing the projectile atop some explosives.

 

[monroelkjr]

Maze
That might work theoretically? We just prefer a little more direct approach :) I have to get to work on the lathe so I'll stop by later. Maze, Google "light gas gun" and tell me what you think. This sounds like something you would be interested in.

M

 

[monroelkjr]

Guy's
Try not to use the terms explosion, detonate, bomb, ect... Are we scientist here or what? Reaction, accelerate things like that are scientific. If you want to blow something up join the Army and get paid to do it.

M

 

[JasonRox]

Guy's
Try not to use the terms explosion, detonate, bomb, ect... Are we scientist here or what? Reaction, accelerate things like that are scientific. If you want to blow something up join the Army and get paid to do it.

M

Yeah but I can make like 30 small little rockets and spend $3000 on explosives, put the rockets on top, and maybe when it explodes one of the rockets will reach its desired height.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The total estimated cost is @$250.000

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.

15. Use of 'Salvaged' and Donated Items
Entrants are encouraged to make imaginative use of items that are salvaged, recycled, donated etc, provided this is within the spirit of the N-Prize Challenge. Broadly, it should be possible for any skilled person to replicate your entry for the same budget and with the same amount of luck and negotiating skills. So, for example, using a discarded mobile phone as part of the telemetry equipment, or the tube from a vacuum cleaner as part of a rocket nozzle, are acceptable. On the other hand, using a complete rocket assembly from a satellite launch system, bought as scrap from a close friend at NASA for $10, would not be considered acceptable. Donations of hardware will be judged on a case-by-case basis. If your neighbour gives you five metres of surplus electrical cable, that's fine. If a local machine shop custom builds a complete rocket casing and 'gives' it to you in exchange for a little publicity, that's less likely to be acceptable. Entrants are strongly advised to contact the organisers to confirm that they are remaining within the rules and spirit of the N-Prize Challenge.

I admire all the people who are chasing after nearly impossible goals. But in this case, so many aspects of the goal seem arbitrary. If it weren't for the n-prize, would you be considering a payload of between 10 and 20 grams? Would you be limiting something or other, I'm not sure what, to 1000 British Pounds? 9 orbits? 100 km altitude?

 

[JasonRox]

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.



I admire all the people who are chasing after nearly impossible goals. But in this case, so many aspects of the goal seem arbitrary. If it weren't for the n-prize, would you be considering a payload of between 10 and 20 grams? Would you be limiting something or other, I'm not sure what, to 1000 British Pounds? 9 orbits? 100 km altitude?

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

 

[Astronuc]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?

Gerald Bull attempted that with larger payloads in his Project HARP - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP

An alternative - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_High_Altitude_Research_Project

The concept of ballistic escape velocity is well proven. The largest challenge is maintaining such high velocities, because air resistance and aerothermal heating will significantly slow down any such object.

A rocket does it at lower speeds to the losses due to air resistance are less and the aerothermal heating is negligible. As the rocket goes higher and the atmosphere thins, higher speeds are not as problematic.

 

[Dadface]

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

Done it already.Where's my money?

 

[Redbelly98]

The total estimated cost is @$250.000

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.

I think that $250k is considered overhead expenses, and doesn't count against the limit stated in the contest rules. Once you are set up for launch, they are concerned with the cost-per-launch after that point.

At least that's my take on things.

 

[Redbelly98]

Done it already.Where's my money?

Be patient. As soon as the Nigerian princess gives Jason the $1,000,000.00 she promised him, you'll get your money.

 

[JasonRox]

I succeeded!

I bought a small rocket at the hobby store and I launched last week. I programmed my computer to keep track of it. And it show that it reached 112 km in height and orbited 13 times. That's more than enough.

I think my code is good. I wrote it in Visual Basics.

You click the button and it gives you the stats. Here's the code...

Dim height as integer
Dim orbit as integer

height = 112 'set default height at 112km
orbit = 13 'set default orbit number at 13

Textbox1.text = height 'tell user the height reached
Textbox2.text = orbit 'tell user the number of orbits

 

[Borek]

Dim height as integer

Must be wrong, height is not an integer.

 

[JasonRox]

Must be wrong, height is not an integer.

Yeah, I'll change that to a double and it should be all good. I will re-launch tomorrow.

 

[Redbelly98]

I like the pictures of Monroe's team's rocket:
http://www.teamprometheus.org/Begining.html

Note the inscription on the far right here
http://www.teamprometheus.org/files/IMG_pene_130.jpg

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, That was a model for the news team we built overnight before the interview. I don't enjoy watching others squirm around because they can't wrap there minds around this project. It might make a diffrence if their was some contribution but I can see the results here will be zero.

M

 

[Dadface]

Hello monroelkjr considering the discussions that went on previously it is not surprising that some of us here(well me at least) thought that the whole thing was a joke.It now seems that it is for real and that you and your team are having a good crack at this extremely challenging and interesting venture.It would be brilliant if you could achieve orbit but even if not I am sure you will gain a lot from the task.Good luck with it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

Personally I was hoping to launch some battlebots to Mars to throw down with the rovers and carve Richard C Hoaglands face into the landscape. What do I get for that?

 

[Dadface]

Be patient. As soon as the Nigerian princess gives Jason the $1,000,000.00 she promised him, you'll get your money.

My people in Nigeria have strict instructions not to send any money...Whoops, oh what a giveaway.

 

[monroelkjr]

So is that it? No interest?

Monroe

 

[turbo]

There is interest, Monroe, but we are all at a loss, not having been involved in this project. Our first concern was preventing some noobs from getting dangerous ideas about building rockets (controlled explosion) and getting hurt. I'd be interested in learning how your feasibility-studies were designed and conducted and how you determined that your fuel of choice has sufficient specific impulse to loft itself and all the hardware without tying up too much mass in fuel. That's why I suggested outboard ramjet boosters so you wouldn't have to loft oxidizers for those stages, just pure fuel.

 

[Redbelly98]

I'm definitely interested, but I know very little about building rockets. I do like hearing what somebody who is involved in a real project like this one has to say.

One question I have, what are the practical applications of sending a <20 gram package into orbit? Or would this be considered a stepping-stone project, with an ultimate goal of launching somewhat heavier payloads at low cost?

Regards,

Mark

 

[Astronuc]

For the most part, solid rockets burn from the center bore out to the casing rather than end to end. The idea is to have the propellant burn uniformly, radially and minimize heat load on the casing.

Liquid propellants are advantages because the oxider and fuel are mixed in a high temperature combustion chamber to maximize temperature. Head should be designed to have the fuel on the outside of the combustion chamber to keep it cool. LOX/H2 is usually rich in H2 to boost Isp.

Multistage solid rockets are very tricky.