If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

[Proton Soup]

the deer have plenty of habitat. hunting them is necessary now, though (where i live at least), because we've killed off the natural predators (wolves and cougars). it's funny, though. i think the media probably does a good job at portraying backwoods yokels as a bunch of trophy-hunting hillbillies, but the truth of the matter is those people are more subsistence hunters. the real people that do it mostly for jollies are a bunch of doctor and lawyer types from the cities that will actually pay $300 for a hunting shirt, ten grand for a club fee, or go to one of those deer farms where they can shoot fenced-in tame deer like fish in a barrel.

and squirrels are vermin to me. they keep eating our pecans. i wish i could step outside with a .22 and plink a few of them. but here in the city limits, it's limited to catch and release. i did a little joy dance when the one that got trapped out in the rain died of exposure before i could release him by the river. that neurotic little freak chewed though half a tree of green pecans just to see if maybe, just maybe, the next one would be ripe.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap.

I grew up in the city and have pretty much spent my whole life there. I'm not sure I could kill most things though I am pretty sure I wouldn't have any trouble fishing and cleaning fish. Of course if my neighbour will do the deer hunting and slaughtering I'll do the fishing.

 

[lisab]

I grew up in the city and have pretty much spent my whole life there. I'm not sure I could kill most things though I am pretty sure I wouldn't have any trouble fishing and cleaning fish. Of course if my neighbour will do the deer hunting and slaughtering I'll do the fishing.

...and if you'll do the fishing, I'll do the cleaning. Spent a whole summer doing it in Alaska!

Aaaah...I love the smell of salmon blood in the morning...

 

[Sorry!]

My family comes from New Brunswick. A small town with A LOT of forest around... Whenever I went down there I ate fresh moose/deer even bear all the time. When we went fishing we brought home lunch.

I would definitely feel bad/upset if I saw an animal being tortured to death or in some sort of extended suffering.

I'm not going to lie though, tonight my beef tasted rediculously good in my hamburger helper with fries :D. and I don't really care at all how the meat came to be in my house. If I saw them torturing an animal to death then yeah of course I would be like what the hell are you doing? I don't think that the animals are tortured however, I'm pretty sure that effects the outcome of the meat.

 

[Werg22]

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap. Shooting a deer is the anticlimax of the hunt, but I feel much better providing a humane death to a wild creature to provide meat for my family than buying beef from cattle who have been confined and fattened in feed-lots.

I was brought up in a family that expected children to participate in the slaughter of poultry and livestock. We were encouraged to attend the birth of cattle and watch the hatching of chicks, too, and we were expected to lend a hand as they were turned into the food that we would eat. Many people have a disconnect about this kind of thing, and act morally superior when they decide that they won't eat meat. Ever notice that so often these "superior" beings carry leather handbags, wear expensive leather shoes and leather belts?

I remember the first time that I was considered old enough and reliable enough to carry wash-basins of pig's blood from the barn to the kitchen so that my mother, aunts, great-aunts, etc could start making blood sausage. Little kids could be allowed to carry large and small intestines to the kitchen because after all, if you dropped them in the dirt, they would simply be washed off, and were destined to be thoroughly cleaned out and boiled anyway to make sausage casings. Spill a wash-pan of blood in the driveway, and the wrath of the (female) elders would fall heavily on you.

Did you grow up in the 18th century or what?

 

[Monique]

It depends where you come from on how the animals are treated Monique.

And what exactly is your point? I don't get it. My question still stands: Do you know how the animals enter the slaughterhouse?

 

[Monique]

Nope, I'd still eat meat. I have molars and incisors and canines for a reason. Humans are not herbivores.. If we were we'd have teeth entirely like a cow or a horse.

The human body requires the nutrients that meat provides. Why would I deny my body the nutrients it needs? It's been doing humanity pretty good for thousands and thousands of years, and I honestly don't think any more people would be vegetarians because of a glass slaughter house than people would be if they still had to kill their food themselves.

I don't agree, at one point in evolution we relied on meat for our evolutionary advantage. Our society evolved much since then. Today you can get by perfectly fine without ever eating meat even once in your life. I know people who have been vegetarian from birth and there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[turbo]

Did you grow up in the 18th century or what?

1950's. My uncles were still twitching timber out of the woods using horses, and farming and raising livestock using methods that had been around forever.

 

[Kurdt]

And what exactly is your point? I don't get it. My question still stands: Do you know how the animals enter the slaughterhouse?

Yes. Like I said previously I have watched a series of programs that gives slaughter houses glass walls. I was assuming you were referring to the conditions in which some animals are brought in. The level of care shown to the animals depends on which country you're in was my point. Some countries try their hardest to make sure animals used for food are treated as humanely as possible.

 

[lisab]

I don't agree, at one point in evolution we relied on meat for our evolutionary advantage. We've evolved much since then. Today you can get by perfectly fine without ever eating meat even once in your life. I know people who have been vegetarian from birth and there is nothing wrong with them.

True. Barring some medical reason (Ivan's, for example), people who eat meat do so out of choice, regardless of what your teeth look like.

I have to admit, I struggle with this issue.

 

[jobyts]

Does any animal eat carnivorous animals?

 

[lisab]

Does any animal eat carnivorous animals?

Sure, lots of them. Coyotes will eat cats, for example.

 

[jobyts]

Sure, lots of them. Coyotes will eat cats, for example.

cats are omnivorous, right?

 

[negitron]

No, cats are obligate carnivores.

 

[Evo]

I was watching a cooking contest the other day and the chefs had to cook for this kook that was not only vegan, so no meat, fish, eggs, butter, milk, or cheese, but she didn't like anything made with soy or wheat either. Where do people come up with these bizarre, unhealthy diets?

 

[jobyts]

I have to admit, I struggle with this issue.

In the same boat. Anthropomorphism vs. taste. And usually the taste instinct wins.

 

[WiFO215]

Why? If it's killing for food and not just some form of entertainment, why would you have any more emotion about one than the other? It's just something you do because you have to do it. I don't know where society has come up with this silly idea that we are supposed to feel guilty about our food source. It's rather counter-productive to survival if we get emotionally attached to our dinner. It may be anthropomorphic, but I really doubt that lions or coyotes get all worked up inside about having to kill their own dinner either.

That's why you cry when you cut an onion!

 

[turbo]

That's why you cry when you cut an onion!

 

[Mk]

For another, a non-insignificant segment of the population hunts, dresses and butchers their own meat.

Congratulations, you have a point of view most young urban/suburban Americans have difficulty imagining.

Did you grow up in the 18th century or what?

Jeez, that nearly insulted me! Watch out with that thing.

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap. Shooting a deer is the anticlimax of the hunt, but I feel much better providing a humane death to a wild creature to provide meat for my family than buying beef from cattle who have been confined and fattened in feed-lots.

Man, you said it well. The current brand of emotional vegetarianisms is only possible due to the level of urbanization we have in some areas. People who have lived in cities for their entire lives and feel like they want to be "close to the environment," or want to live "in a green way" do not have any concept of what being "close to the environment" actually means. They rarely walk off concrete or asphalt and when they leave the city, to go see Nature they are on an adventure.

 

[negitron]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

Indeed. It hasn't had time for that sort of change in the few thousand years since humans became agricultural. In any case, to suggest that we have evolved "beyond" something suggests that evolution has a purpose, a direction or perhaps that it pursues a course from less moral to more moral behavior. Neither of these is true in any sense--and the latter is particularly ridiculous. There is no natural pressure for humans to change from an omnivorous diet which includes meat to a largely vegetarian one. Quite the opposite, in fact. Meat is much easier to digest, which is why carnivores have shorter digestive tracts than herbivores; humans fall right in the middle with a gut length less than similarly-sized herbivores but longer than an obligate carnivore's (yet another data point in favor of the belief that humans are naturally omnivorous, as are most other primates). As a nutrition source, meat packs more energy per unit mass than vegetation; as a result, carnivores tend to be overall faster and more active than their herbivorous counterparts. Human civiliartion itself is likely a direct result of that, among other factors.

 

[turbo]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

That should be clear. Adults can often do well on a diet with no animal protein for extended times, but it would be reckless to force kids to forgo animal protein without providing supplements - Vitamin B12 at a minimum. We evolved as omnivores, and without supplements, it can be difficult or impossible to get some nutrients on a vegetarian diet.

Even worse, some vegetarians load their diets with tofu-based products. Whole foods and minimally-processed foods should be a part of everybody's diet - heavily-processed foods are generally not as healthy. I have a neighbor who is a vegetarian, though his wife, daughter, and grandchildren all are enthusiastic meat-eaters. He will gladly smoke racks of ribs and grills steaks for them, but he cooks tofu-burgers, soy-dogs, etc, for himself. Yuck! Why eat pretend-food? He is a fantastic BBQ cook, but he got onto this vegetarian kick years back. I supply him with my hot chili sauces so he can load his ersatz meats with them and kill the flavor. BTW, he will shoot a wood-chuck or a red squirrel in a heartbeat, so it's not about caring for the critters.

 

[jobyts]

Meat is much easier to digest, which is why carnivores have shorter digestive tracts than herbivores;

I thought it was the opposite.

 

[negitron]

Nope. Plants have tough cell walls which need to be broken down; this require either particular gut flora suited to the task or specialized enzymes. Cooking does help, though, so we have an advantage there, too.

 

[Monique]

I think what he meant was clear, that biological evolution has not freed humans from the need to eat meat.

I never talked about biological evolution. Our society today in Western countries is very different and has evolved significantly from when we were hunter-gatherers. As a hunter-gatherer the options for food were very limited. If you live in an industrialized country and have an income, you have access to nutritional foods and by the cooking process the nutrients can be absorbed. In addition we are educated in what is needed for a healthy diet.

Here is the position of the American Dietetic Association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum"

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

 

[z0rn dawg]

No, cats are obligate carnivores.

My cat eats grass for nutritional value (that's what the vet says anyway).

I thought it was the opposite.

Breaking down fruits/vegetables is much harder than breaking down meat. It takes bacteria much longer.

Humans are meant to eat meat. The comment about evolution does show ignorance and to me it suggests that the poster thinks that we have evolved since beginning farming. We still need vitamins, minerals, etc. from meat. Whether you get them from meat or pills/supplements doesn't matter; you still need them. And the natural way is through meat.

 

[Monique]

Only for people who have been coddled all their lives, and who think hamburg comes in plastic trays with plastic wrap. Shooting a deer is the anticlimax of the hunt, but I feel much better providing a humane death to a wild creature to provide meat for my family than buying beef from cattle who have been confined and fattened in feed-lots.

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

 

[turbo]

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

There is a farmer a few miles from here who specializes in Black Angus beef-cattle. His cattle are pastured, not confined, and the pastures contain streams, stock-ponds with good flow in and out, nice green grass, and lots of shade trees so the critters can get out of direct sun when it's hot out. He also raises lots of free-range chickens most years. The chickens are great at insect-control, and he and his wife are working to get their family farm accredited for certification as an organic farm.

I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for meat from that farm - I know the animals have been well-treated and have had as much freedom of movement and freedom of choice in food, water, etc, that they can reasonably have. It's not like the cattle are free to come and go, like wild white-tail deer, but then again, they are in no danger of starvation and freezing when the winters are bad. They can shelter in barns, and get supplemental grains, etc to keep their weight up. That livestock operation is as humane and considerate as I have ever seen in recent years, though my uncle's Herefords were very well-treated 50 years ago with similar amenities. Only small farms seem to have the motivation and ability to treat their stock well and produce really high-quality meats - the big guys don't seem to care.

 

[Sorry!]

I agree, I would have less problems with going to a farmer and buying meat there than buying meat in a supermarket and not knowing what the source is.

So you would rather just go and kill a wild animal when you could just go buy meat? Not only did that wild animal have much more to live for and a free life, all of which YOU just took away from it directly but the other option involves buying something ALREADY dead.

If you feel that the way animals are treated is horrible or inhumane or whatever you think then you feel that way. Don't go and unnecessarily kill an animal to eat it though... makes no sense to me.

 

[Monique]

Yes. Like I said previously I have watched a series of programs that gives slaughter houses glass walls. I was assuming you were referring to the conditions in which some animals are brought in. The level of care shown to the animals depends on which country you're in was my point. Some countries try their hardest to make sure animals used for food are treated as humanely as possible.

Well, I don't know how they made the documentary. How did they pick the slaughterhouse and was the slaughterhouse informed prior to the taping of the documentary? I live in a country that cares about animal welfare, evident from the fact that there is a political Party for Animals part of the House of Representatives. Live animal transport is not uncommon, animal mass-industry is commercial they will do anything for a high return. E.g. it is cheaper to transport live animals to Italy than to have butchers process the meat in the Netherlands. I hope the industry will move to the production of high quality products, rather than production in the cheapest way possible (which is the current state of business).

 

[Monique]

Only small farms seem to have the motivation and ability to treat their stock well and produce really high-quality meats - the big guys don't seem to care.

I agree, that's why I said that I don't want to force people to become vegetarian: there are intermediate options such as white meat (better than red meat) and biological producers (better than industrial producers). Unfortunately the biological meat market is not really transparent to me, I would first need to investigate it before assuming that I get what they promise (unless you have personal contacts with a farm). I think the most important thing is to be educated and know where products come from.

 

[Hel]

I've been vegetarian since I was 12. It was my own personal decision, and my family still eats meat. A few weeks ago my doctor had me go through a series of blood tests to make sure I wasn't anemic and was getting enough B12, as those are some issues that vegetarians sometimes have. The blood tests came back fine: I'm not anemic and am getting enough B12.

In addition to that I've been keeping food logs for several weeks, and I come pretty close to the mark on protein. On average I consume about 1100 calories a day, so coming a little short on protein recommended for a 1600-1800 calorie diet (which is what I'm supposed to get for my weight) is expected.

It's definitely possible to be perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet.
I don't know about vegan diets though.

Meat is a huge part of modern society though, and vegetarianism is definitely not suited for everybody. If I were allergic to say, casein, I'd eat meat, even though I don't like the taste or the texture.

I do think that people should lay off eating benthic predators though. With the pollution that's going into the water, crabs and such are eating all sorts of junk that I don't even want to think about going into humans' stomachs.

Cutting meat out of a diet isn't going to make a person healthy. I'm Seventh Day Adventist, and something that's huge is vegetarianism: Loma Linda & Worthington foods are ubiquitous. The irritating thing is that people think they're "eating healthy" by substituting meats for fake stuff that has a mile long list of in-pronounceable ingredients. Just attempting to read it invokes my gag reflex!

If you're going to be vegetarian, you're going to need to pay more attention to getting enough vitamins and protein. If you eat meat, you might want to stick to pay attention to where it's coming from and how well it's cooked. It's just a matter of personal preference and possibly health reasons.

Be health conscious... whether you eat meat or not.

 

[Kurdt]

Well, I don't know how they made the documentary. How did they pick the slaughterhouse and was the slaughterhouse informed prior to the taping of the documentary? I live in a country that cares about animal welfare, evident from the fact that there is a political Party for Animals part of the House of Representatives. Live animal transport is not uncommon, animal mass-industry is commercial they will do anything for a high return. E.g. it is cheaper to transport live animals to Italy than to have butchers process the meat in the Netherlands. I hope the industry will move to the production of high quality products, rather than production in the cheapest way possible (which is the current state of business).

For animals in Britain we have regulations on conditions for live animal transport to slaughterhouses. Conditions are such that animals have more personal space in animal transports than passengers on an economy class flight. There are also regulations on when they should be watered and fed during such trips.

 

[negitron]

My cat eats grass for nutritional value (that's what the vet says anyway).

No one knows exactly why cats occasionally eat grass. Often it appears to act more as an emetic than a nutriment. My own couch lions are indoor-only but they'll sometimes eat a bit of vegetable that falls on the floor; I suspect they do that only because they 1) see me eating it and 2) it's usually covered in butter, sauce or cheese. Obligate carnivore means they must eat meat to survive; although cats can eat veggies, they rarely will of their own accord if a source of meat is readily available. Cats cannot manufacture the amino acid taurine in their bodies; they must get it from meats which are the only natural sources of it. Vegans who attempt to force their moral code upon their feline friends (aside from deserving rather stiff punishment which preferably involves soaking in melted lard followed immediately by an introduction to a large, hungry feral cat colony) must be careful to feed them foods with taurine added.

 

[Proton Soup]

I never talked about biological evolution. Our society today in Western countries is very different and has evolved significantly from when we were hunter-gatherers. As a hunter-gatherer the options for food were very limited. If you live in an industrialized country and have an income, you have access to nutritional foods and by the cooking process the nutrients can be absorbed. In addition we are educated in what is needed for a healthy diet.

Here is the position of the American Dietetic Association: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...el.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum"

thanks for that. ADA is now on my Quack List

 

[junglebeast]

I don't have extensive knowledge of this organization but from a summary perspective, I wouldn't be so quick to judge them as Quacks...

"The American Dietetic Association (ADA) is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with nearly 67,000 members. Approximately 75 % of ADA's members are registered dietitians and about 4 % are dietetic technicians, registered. The remainder of ADA's members include researchers, educators, students, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers."

Requirements include the following items:

* Minimum Bachelor's degree with coursework approved by ADA's accreditation on dietitics education. This coursework included food science, nutrition, computer science, biochemistry, microbiology, chemistry, sociology, business management, and physiology.
* Completion of an accredited, supervised, and apprenticed program at a health care facility, community agency, or food service organization.
* Pass a Commission on Dietetic Registration-administered national examination.
* Maintain registration by completing continuing professional educational requirements.

Approximately 75 percent of all ADA members are RD's. An additional 4 percent of ADA membership are Dietetic Technician, Registered (DTR). About half of the ADA membership hold advanced academic degrees (Master's or Doctorate).