If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.

[negitron]

No, the issue is much more complicated very much debated due to the common occurrence especially in pregnant women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy#Human_geophagy

It's still largely considered a pica in the US, per the DSM IV.

 

[Evo]

The biggest health problem in America is obesity, and that is not caused by vegetarianism.

Not true, actress Kirstie Alley claims that when she switched to a vegetarian diet, she started loading on the pounds. She said a fried, cheese filled vegetarian burrito has three times the grease and calories of a regular meat burrito. She's right.

Kirstie Alley: Vegetarianism made me gain 83 pounds

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2009/05/06/2009-05-06_kirstie_alley_vegetarianism_made_me_gain_83_pounds.html

For seven months I was a vegetarian, and I can't tell you how much weight I gained being a vegetarian!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20276768,00.html

She thought that because it was vegetarian it would be ok. She started eating fried foods (there's your heart clogging artery food), tons of butter on the vegetables, cheese, breads, pizza. Vegetarian diets can be extremely unhealthy. Not to mention deficient in essential vitamins and nutrients.

A sensible balanced diet with meat can be healthy, low fat, high fiber, and rich in NATURAL vitamins and nutrients that are essential to good health. We are just beginning to understand the importance of getting nutrients from the foods themselves and not from artificial supplements.

People that are deficient in B12 can have very serious health problems including cardiovascular disease, and permanent permanent nerve damage. It is very serious in children and especially infants.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12.asp

 

[Hel]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

 

[Evo]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

No different than with a balanced healthy meat diet.

 

[Hel]

Of course. I don't think it matters what people eat or don't eat, as long as they are aware of the nutrients they need to get to be healthy and make sure they get those. That, coupled with water and exercise will keep them healthy whether they eat meat or no.

 

[Evo]

Of course. I don't think it matters what people eat or don't eat, as long as they are aware of the nutrients they need to get to be healthy and make sure they get those. That, coupled with water and exercise will keep them healthy whether they eat meat or no.

And it's not a need for water either, that was dispelled. You just need liquid in any form. That can be soda, juice, beer, wine, etc...just as long as you get enough. Just realize that some forms of liquid are also diuretics.

 

[Sorry!]

And it's not a need for water either, that was dispelled. You just need liquid in any form. That can be soda, juice, beer, wine, etc...just as long as you get enough. Just realize that some forms of liquid are also diuretics.

How is this true? Where's an article to back up this claim.

I don't believe it.

 

[Evo]

How is this true? Where's an article to back up this claim.

I don't believe it.

You don't know this? It's been posted before. I'll see if I can find it, but you can probably find it easily. Water is water, whether it is in coffee, tea, juice, etc... it doesn't matter. That's been common knowledge for quite awhile. It was stressed after people started dying from drinking too much water. Water is in everything you drink and too much water (from all sources) can kill you.

 

[Monique]

Water is much better for you than soda, the way you take your liquids does matter (I know people who only drink diet coke/mountain dew/coffee to hydrate themselves).

 

[Sorry!]

You don't know this? It's been posted before. I'll see if I can find it, but you can probably find it easily. Water is water, whether it is in coffee, tea, juice, etc... it doesn't matter. That's been common knowledge for quite awhile. It was stressed after people started dying from drinking too much water. Water is in everything you drink and too much water (from all sources) can kill you.

I am certain that water is a better source of hydration than soda. It is also better for your body and therefore more healthy. I don't doubt that there is water in soda... you can even drink your urine and survive off it for a bit does that mean its the same as water too?

 

[Proton Soup]

Kristie Alley's weight gain wasn't due to vegetarianism: it was due to eating foods high in fat. Honestly I think that Kristie Alley should take responsibility for eating the foods she ate. I'm sure something would have been mentioned about "force feeding" if it really weren't her fault.

Eating foods high in fat and carbs will make you gain weight whether you are vegetarian or not. There's nothing about vegetarianism that says that you have to eat foods high in saturated fats.
Actually, people who don't like vegetables and fruits probably shouldn't be vegetarian, simply because they'll either eat unhealthy or hate the foods they're eating.

And Vitamin B12? It clearly isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet: I don't take supplements and I just got tested... my B12 levels are well within the reference range. Yes, there are things that can be problems in vegetarian diets, but with awareness and education, are prevented.

again, it doesn't matter that it isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet. fact is, it is a problem in most vegetarian diets.

also, if you're going to go through the trouble to assess your b12 status, the best way is to test methylmalonic acid. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030301/979.html

as for education, Kirstie is a shining example of just how uneducated people are. read Monique's linked paper. vegetarianism is damn complicated. you can't even trust eating foods that promise you "omega-3s", because it's mostly ALA they're putting in there. for non-piscavore vegetarians, you need to go to the health-food store and pay a steep price for a smidgen of algae-derived DHA.

 

[Hel]

People? Uneducated? Shocking!
/end sarcasm

When these people are educated, however, they should be told, "Foods high in saturated fats and carbohydrates are bad for you", not "Don't be vegetarian, you'll become anemic."

Most uneducated people in developed counties suffer from an excess of food, not a lack thereof. There is no excuse for a vegetarian in a developed country to be anemic.

 

[Proton Soup]

truly educated people realize that they are omnivores, and eat a variety of lean meats, seafood, fruits, vegetable, etc.

actually, i think you can do OK as a piscavore vegetarian. wouldn't surprise me at all if the aquatic ape hypothesis is correct.

 

[Moonbear]

again, it doesn't matter that it isn't a problem in every vegetarian diet. fact is, it is a problem in most vegetarian diets..

B12 deficiency is only a problem in vegan diets, where absolutely NO animal sources of foods are included. Regular vegetarian diets only avoid meats, not other sources of food from animals. For example, a regular vegetarian can eat cheese or eggs, but not steak or chicken.

There is nothing inherently healthy about NOT being a vegetarian either...it also requires paying attention to what one eats, how much and in what combinations, to eat a healthy diet that includes meats too.

 

[Proton Soup]

B12 deficiency is only a problem in vegan diets, where absolutely NO animal sources of foods are included. Regular vegetarian diets only avoid meats, not other sources of food from animals. For example, a regular vegetarian can eat cheese or eggs, but not steak or chicken.

There is nothing inherently healthy about NOT being a vegetarian either...it also requires paying attention to what one eats, how much and in what combinations, to eat a healthy diet that includes meats too.

yes, i know. there is a whole spectrum of vegetarianism, depending on whether people are doing it for health reasons, religion, or guilt.

 

[Evo]

I am certain that water is a better source of hydration than soda. It is also better for your body and therefore more healthy. I don't doubt that there is water in soda... you can even drink your urine and survive off it for a bit does that mean its the same as water too?

Rather, surveys of fluid intake on healthy adults of both genders, published as peer-reviewed documents, strongly suggest that such large amounts are not needed. His conclusion is supported by published studies showing that caffeinated drinks, such as most coffee, tea and soft drinks, may indeed be counted toward the daily total.

Finally, strong evidence now indicates that not all of the prescribed fluid need be in the form of water. Careful peer-reviewed experiments have shown that caffeinated drinks should indeed count toward the daily fluid intake in the vast majority of persons. To a lesser extent, the same probably can be said for dilute alcoholic beverages, such as beer, if taken in moderation.

http://dms.dartmouth.edu/news/2002_h2/08aug2002_water.shtml

And for those of you that will only accept Snopes

Additionally, the idea that one must specifically drink water because the diuretic effects of caffeinated drinks such as coffee, tea, and soda actually produce a net loss of fluid appears to be erroneous. The average person retains about half to two-thirds the amount of fluid taken in by consuming these types of beverages, and those who regularly consume caffeinated drinks retain even more:
Regular coffee and tea drinkers become accustomed to caffeine and lose little, if any, fluid. In a study published in the October issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, researchers at the Center for Human Nutrition in Omaha measured how different combinations of water, coffee and caffeinated sodas affected the hydration status of 18 healthy adults who drink caffeinated beverages routinely.

"We found no significant differences at all," says nutritionist Ann Grandjean, the study's lead author. "The purpose of the study was to find out if caffeine is dehydrating in healthy people who are drinking normal amounts of it. It is not."

The same goes for tea, juice, milk and caffeinated sodas: One glass provides about the same amount of hydrating fluid as a glass of water. The only common drinks that produce a net loss of fluids are those containing alcohol — and usually it takes more than one of those to cause noticeable dehydration, doctors say.
The best general advice (keeping in mind that there are always exceptions) is to rely upon your normal senses. If you feel thirsty, drink; if you don't feel thirsty, don't drink unless you want to. The exhortation that we all need to satisfy an arbitrarily rigid rule about how much water we must drink every day was aptly skewered in a letter by a Los Angeles Times reader:
Although not trained in medicine or nutrition, I intuitively knew that the advice to drink eight glasses of water per day was nonsense. The advice fully meets three important criteria for being an American health urban legend: excess, public virtue, and the search for a cheap "magic bullet."

http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp

 

[Hel]

Finally, strong evidence now indicates that not all of the prescribed fluid need be in the form of water. Careful peer-reviewed experiments have shown that caffeinated drinks should indeed count toward the daily fluid intake in the vast majority of persons. To a lesser extent, the same probably can be said for dilute alcoholic beverages, such as beer, if taken in moderation.

I'm not sure how that article says that you don't need water and can just have fluid in any form as you said here:

And it's not a need for water either, that was dispelled. You just need liquid in any form. That can be soda, juice, beer, wine, etc...just as long as you get enough. Just realize that some forms of liquid are also diuretics.

The article said that caffeinated drinks should count toward the daily fluid intake, but it doesn't say it can replace water entirely, as you were suggesting.

 

[Proton Soup]

I'm not sure how that article says that you don't need water and can just have fluid in any form as you said here:

The article said that caffeinated drinks should count toward the daily fluid intake, but it doesn't say it can replace water entirely, as you were suggesting.

you're not replacing water entirely. those drinks are mostly water.

 

[Evo]

I'm not sure how that article says that you don't need water and can just have fluid in any form as you said here:

That would be here

Additionally, the idea that one must specifically drink water because the diuretic effects of caffeinated drinks such as coffee, tea, and soda actually produce a net loss of fluid appears to be erroneous.

 

[Sorry!]

Evo who ever said anything about the diuretic effects of these drinks producing a net loss of fluids? I'm pretty sure the discussion was about being healthy which I either missed in your article or it just wasn't there.

I would love to see you drink only those drinks and maintain the same fitness/health level as I would excercising and drinking water/sports drinks.

I remember doing culminating unit on this... The effects of particular drinks on the body concerning excercise and overall functionality of the body.

 

[Jasongreat]

What is going to happen to all the beef cows when there is no more market for beef?
The people trying to save them will be in for a shock when they all die off. Why would a rancher continue to feed his beef if he couldn't get his money back for the feed? Are we going to have the government force them to keep feeding at a loss or will we the tax payer get to pay for a beef to be raised but not get to eat it? Sounds like a governmental plan to me.
If you were to cut open a human(not that I am planning to), what color would the meat be? What kind of fat would you find? Red and saturated? The two most despised products of some "health" nuts, the same health nuts that say a vegan lifestyle is natural and then have to go to the doctor for a b-12 shot, I didnt know that doctors were part of nature.

 

[Proton Soup]

Evo who ever said anything about the diuretic effects of these drinks producing a net loss of fluids? I'm pretty sure the discussion was about being healthy which I either missed in your article or it just wasn't there.

I would love to see you drink only those drinks and maintain the same fitness/health level as I would excercising and drinking water/sports drinks.

I remember doing culminating unit on this... The effects of particular drinks on the body concerning excercise and overall functionality of the body.

so now you're comparing salty sugar-water to water?

seriously, if you want a sports drink, strongly consider milk or chocolate milk.

 

[Jasongreat]

so now you're comparing salty sugar-water to water?

seriously, if you want a sports drink, strongly consider milk or chocolate milk.

You must love cotton mouth.(that is if you play in sports while drinking your sports drink.)

 

[Hel]

Well... according to the rules of osmosis, drinking a sports drink with lots of salt, like gatorade, will help you retain water. Your kidneys will filter more salt and less water out of the blood, less urine will be produced, and it will have a higher salt concentration. This is perfectly acceptable when you're exercising, sweating a lot, and need to retain water to help stay hydrated. However, I measured the [Na+] of Gatorade using flame spectrometry in general chemistry... there's a lot of Sodium in there... water it down before drinking.

And now I all I can think about is the hershey's syrup and jug of milk in the fridge.

 

[Evo]

Gatorade falls under the list of soft drinks, kool-aid, juice, coffee, tea, etc...

It's so funny to see how some people will cling to the misinformation of the "8 glasses of water" myth and deny scientific medical research.

Valtin thinks the notion may have started when the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Research Council recommended approximately "1 milliliter of water for each calorie of food," which would amount to roughly two to two-and-a-half quarts per day (60 to 80 ounces). Although in its next sentence, the Board stated "most of this quantity is contained in prepared foods," that last sentence may have been missed, so that the recommendation was erroneously interpreted as how much water one should drink each day.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2002/aug/080802.html

 

[Sorry!]

so now you're comparing salty sugar-water to water?

seriously, if you want a sports drink, strongly consider milk or chocolate milk.

Proton you're actually getting slightly annoying by talking as though you know absolutely without a doubt that what you're saying is right. The problem is lack of knowledge.

I don't know how seriously you're into sports or if you've ever even been serious in any sports. Let me see you run for 3 hours drinking chocolate milk.

@Evo I never knew sports drinks were considered 'soda.'

As for this '8 glasses of water myth' let's do some quick math :) (i think it should be cups which I'm about to show you but meh)

The average amount of calories a person 'should eat' is around 2000. So 1ml of water per calorie there are 250ml in one cup of water. 2000/250=8.

Therefore you should be drinking around 8 CUPS of water per day.

And yes you do get water from the foods you are drinking but its definitely not 2000ml. By drinking these amounts of water, which may be extra, you won't harm your body at all (not nearly high enough amounts of water) and you will just be helping your stay healthy...

 

[Proton Soup]

if i were running for three hours (which i wouldn't be, but i might be hiking), i would drink a bunch of water. then eat a meal when i got hungry.

but Evo is right, sports drinks are mostly junk food.

 

[Monique]

Gatorade falls under the list of soft drinks, kool-aid, juice, coffee, tea, etc...

It's so funny to see how some people will cling to the misinformation of the "8 glasses of water" myth and deny scientific medical research.



http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2002/aug/080802.html

If someone says "eat healthy and drink water", I interpret that as "drink water, not soft drinks". You seem to be interpreting it as "drink water, next to the same amount of soft drinks"?

 

[Evo]

If someone says "eat healthy and drink water", I interpret that as "drink water, not soft drinks". You seem to be interpreting it as "drink water, next to the same amount of soft drinks"?

No, your body will get water from the water found in what you drink and eat. It doesn't matter if that water is plain or has sugar or flavorings added, it's still all water. If you drink a glass of clear water with a jelly donut, once it gets into your body, that "water" mixes with the sugar, artificial coloring and flavoring that was in the donut. Your body doesn't say "koolaid" this water has sugar and flavoring in it, we can't use this water. Then water and sugar jelly donut come down the hatch, and, the water now has sugar and flavoring it it, BUT it came in by itself, so we can count that, even though it's all just a sugary slush now.

Of course, just because water is water doesn't mean you should drink all things sugary. I'm just talking about the amount of water you consume in everyday items. If people think there isn't water in that soda...

Back in the "olde days", safe sources of water weren't always available and the major source of water was alcohol, even for children. The alcohol was the only safe thing to drink.

 

[Quincy]

I try to avoid red meat as much as possible; not because it came from slaughtering an animal , but because it's not very healthy and sometimes grosses me out. I like to chicken and fish though.

 

[Hel]

Yeah... drinking soda will give you both water and sugar. Thus if you only need hydration, not the sugar, water is the best way to go. Better for your teeth too.

There are lots of places where safe water sources are still rare. Even in more developed countries in Africa, you can get Coca-cola cheaper than water. You can even get alcoholic beverages cheaper than water in some cases!

 

[mgb_phys]

Your body doesn't say "koolaid" this water has sugar and flavoring in it, we can't use this water.

Just to confuse things - a certain concentration of sugar does let your body absorb the water faster than just plain water.
That was the reason for Gatorade. Or drink 1glass of orange juice to 3-4 glasses of water, as Evo said - once it hits your stomach it mixes anyway.
I suppose you could use 4glasses of water to one donut after exercising - perhaps there is a market for post-exercise energy donuts.

There was a suggestion that the diruetic effects of coffee outweigh the liquid you gain from it - that is only (possibly) true for a strong espresso

 

[Monique]

Back in the "olde days", safe sources of water weren't always available and the major source of water was alcohol, even for children. The alcohol was the only safe thing to drink.

Interesting hypothesis: why are asians alcohol intolerant? When water was unsafe to drink they had the habit of boiling water to make tea, while the westerners were drinking beer in order to have a safe source of water (and thus there was a selection against alcohol intolerance). You seem to know quite a bit about history, have you heard of that hypothesis before?

 

[Evo]

Interesting hypothesis: why are asians alcohol intolerant? When water was unsafe to drink they had the habit of boiling water to make tea, while the westerners were drinking beer in order to have a safe source of water (and thus there was a selection against alcohol intolerance). You seem to know quite a bit about history, have you heard of that hypothesis before?

I have. I did have an excellent article about it saved on my other computer, which met an untimely death. In the US, in the old west, they turned to alcohol also. I can probably find it. But it is interesting.

 

[Sorry!]

if i were running for three hours (which i wouldn't be, but i might be hiking), i would drink a bunch of water. then eat a meal when i got hungry.

but Evo is right, sports drinks are mostly junk food.

I don't see Evo ever making the claim that sports drinks are junk food. As well no, the best thing to drink during a 3 hour run happens to be sports drinks... Or if you run outside in hot weather you can shorten the amount of time before you should consider drinking sports drinks due to more water lost. The average person who goes for low intensity/short intervals doesn't need to drink sports drinks they can hydrate perfectly fine while maintaining optimal conditions for training with water.

When I did my study on this I found a lot of atheletes make their own sports drinks which revolve around similar nutritional information, mostly the difference came from taste preference.

I even made my own sports drink and tested it on myself. I was able to run harder and longer drinking a sports drink compared to regular water. Only after long periods of exercise. One downside to drinking sports drinks is that it has a caloric value and will therefore give your body a more readily availible energy source, which is good if you are an athelete (gives you extra energy) but bad if you are attempting to lose weight...