In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

There are no innocent people in the settlements. They can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ...etc) but surely they have no right to live on stolen land and to kill the native people. I wish you check my links again about settlers to see what kind of human are they.

If any American family decided to steal land in Iraq by force and to live there, then they are not innocent, and they responsible about the death of their kids. It is the same situation in WB and Gaza. This is Palestinian land, and the extremist Israeli have no right to steal 80% of water resources and 60% of lands...

It was the same story of France in Algeria, and we know what the fate of French settlers... they left without getting compensation after 130 years of occupation.

I never met my aunt who lives in Israel, just 10 km far from my town, because I am not allowed to travel, to live or to buy land in Israel. So why the Israeli can take the best lands and most water resources in WB and Gaza which are considered by all world countries as Palestinian occupied land?

Jews are welcomed to live in my country (Palestine) as peaceful citizens, the same as Muslims, Christian , non religious, Sumarian Jews ... but they have no right to live as militant racist settlers who want to kick us out of our country to create pure Jews State. I support completely to have one country for all communities with equal rights for all people whatever their religion or race

@Bilal
... while murdering innocent civilians in settlements is perfectly good and swell?

 

[Bilal]

It work also on the other side … see the attached links and pictures of Jews settlers teaching their kids terrorism, hate and how to steal the houses and lands of Palestinian.

In religious Jews schools of settlers, the children of primary schools should join camps to learn how to use the different types of weapons and how to kill the Palestinian.

I know there is some silly Palestinian in Gaza trying to teach the children how to use guns, but here are two major differences between them and the settlers:

1- Settlers teach their kids how to kill the Palestinian and to clean what called ‘’the biblical Jews Land” from the non Jews ‘’Goyim’’, while the Palestinian teach their kids how to protect the lands of their fathers and their lives from the invaders.

2- During Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, 20000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians were killed by the Israeli and their Lebanese alliance. Only the kids who trained how to use RPG and guns are saved, while the kids who joined the school to learn music and songs are murdered like sheep. All these crimes got complete support of USA. Therefore if you live in jungle world you should teach your kids how to protect their lives from human wolves.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1395080.stm

Pictures of Jews settelers teaching their kids terrorism:

http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg

http://www.msn.co.il/pidl/1298484/settelers_N.jpg

http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/photos%20for%20web/graffitti%20in%20Hebron-%20KILL%20ARABS%20(8-13-03).jpg

I will only responsd to these with this

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/

 

[Bilal]

Personally, I am sad for the death of any human in this tragedy conflict but we have to present the different views instead of brainwashing by media.

It is clear that bus driver goal is to kill the 7 occupation soldiers, but they shot him and he lost control on his bus , so how we know whether he means to kill this women or just because he lost control? The bus continued moving after his death, which mean there are possibility that this women died after the driver?

The Bulldozer driver was not under attack... He just did not care about few stupid people defending the poor Palestinian family!

Examples of Israeli Bulldozers crimes:


Important links:


http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines02/1203-03.htm

Family Tells How Israelis Buried Deaf Father Alive

((Beside the pile of flattened concrete, all that was left of his home, Maher Salem described yesterday how his 68-year-old father was killed when the Israeli army demolished the house on top of him. When he found his father, Mr Salem said, the old man's head was "like a bar of chocolate, it was only two centimetres thick".))

((It would not be the first time claims of this sort turned out to be true: in Nablus in April, eight members of a single family died when a soldier bulldozed their house on top of them. Their bodies were found, and the case has been well documented by international human rights groups.))
IOF buries family alive under demolished home
http://www.geocities.com/radicalcalendar/buries.html

So Racheli Levi cannot stand in a battlefield and is responsible for her death but Rachel Corrie has full rights to stand infront of a moving bulldozer, is absolved of all responsibility and is a goddess?

Edit: Levi was not standing in a battlefield. She was just WAITING for a bus. Waiting for a bus with a few soldiers around is not equal to standing in a battlefield.

 

[Hurkyl]

Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.


Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".


I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.

I'm beginning to believe it.

 

[Bilal]

I do not want to repeat 1 million times...
There is Israel on 78% of Historical Palestine
There West Bank and Gaza, which considered “occupied Land” by all world countries (including USA and UN), 22% of historical Palestine
Those Rachels can live in Israel (Haifa, Tel Aviv ... ) the same as you (American) Can live in NY, Texas .. etc, but it is their mistake to live ''illegally'' in occupied Palestinian land to steal the land of Palestinian and to force them to terrorize them (see my links again about settlers!). It is as you (American) take your family with guns to live in Falluja and Baghdad because your army occupy that country!
Rachels have no right to live in Palestine as settlers, but they can live as peaceful Palestinian Jews, which is not the case here!
Differences between Rachel the ‘’American peace activists’’ and Rachesl ‘’the settelers‘’ are :

1) Rachel the American do not hate the Jews (may be she is from Jews origin) , she came to Palestine by (Visa) from the Israeli authority. She is welcomed by Palestinian. This means she had no enemies in Palestine/Israel. Rachel wanted to spread peace between Palestine and Israel. She wants to see the reality on ground instead to here the propaganda and lies in American media. She is friend of every Palestinian and every peace lover Israeli. Her heart broken by death of every Israeli/Palestinian, because they love them as human. She is the sound of conscience of every peace lover.

2) Rachels ‘’the settlers’’, came illegally to live in WB and Gaza, most of them are members in Jews terrorists groups (Kach and Kahana Hai) . These groups killed Rabin (former Israeli PM) and responsible about daily crimes in Palestine. The goal of these Rachels is to force the non Jews to immigrate and to steal their houses and land. They and their cousins are usually have weapons to kill the Palestinian and to destroy their crops. They are not welcomed by Palestinian, not because they are Jews, but because they want to ‘’annihilate’’ them!

Do you know the meaning of free will and freedom?

All the Rachels here CHOSE to be where they are. Neither the Israeli government nor the Palestinian administration force the Rachels to be where they were.

The only difference is that the Israeli Rachels were MURDERED while Rachel Corrie CHOSE to stand in front of a bulldozer and died. Corrie IS responsible for her death. The other Rachels are not.

And then you go on and put Rachel Corrie in the same league as the other Rachels? How?

 

[Bilal]

Israel is tiny country, and Henry Kissinger (former American Jews Minister) : Israel can not survive more than 6 months without the help of USA!
Israel can not involve in nuclear or chemical war, because small nuke is enough to end them.

USA who working hard for Israel by destroying Iraq and making pressure and siege on Iran and Syria ...

This is the reason why USA is hated in ME, because all Israeli crimes and the ''ethic cleansing'' of Palestinian people are done by American military/politically/financially/diplomatically support.
We are not jealous from American freedom, but we reject the crimes of and the aggression of your politician in last several decades..

you want to know what i think?
Let them do their own thing, and stay out.
Know why?
If you do that, then one country (Israel, because their millitary is superior) would run right through the middle east and take care of the problim for the us.
You know what we do next?
Get a line of people with flamethrowers and toarch the place.
Know what then?
Problim solved!

Fibonacci

 

[Bilal]

FIRST:

Are you denying that:

There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.
et cetera.
**********************************************************
SECOND:

Could you ask the Jews why they teach their kids to hate the NAZI German?
Could you ask the ''Red Indian'' why they do not like ''Cowboys''?
Could you ask the Afro American why they are not proud by those who brought their families to work in cotton farms?

**********************************************************
THIRD

Hate exist in both societies, the difference that Israeli hate is build on ''myth'' of superior Jews and savages Palestinian , while the Palestinian anger based on the fact that those ''strangers'' invaded their homeland and kicked 60% of Palestinian homes to establish ‘’Jews Ghetto State ’’ , then they occupied the rest of Palestine and they continue their daily crimes since decades.

We did not go to Poland, Germany, NY , Holland ... to kill the Zionists. We did not burn 6 Millions Jews in 2WW, but they came to our land to steal it and create ''Jews homeland'' based on, biblical myth and racist superiority!
they lived 2000 ago on part of Palestine, but if we should accept to be enough reason to kick the Palestinian out of their country, then America should not be exist also, and most of world countries! Because another nations lived there 2000 years ago!

Palestinian are nation from Muslims, Christian, Jews, non religious... they are not just ''religious'' group who want to create ''Ghetto State'' in ME by murdering another people who lived hundreds of years in their homeland!
Palestinian do not hate Jews because they are Jews , but because they are racist Zionist who wanted to destroy us.

Bilal: let's clarify it. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.


Fighting in the name of a just cause does make one just. To quote a western phrase: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".


I've attended a lecture that claimed that one of the important political and psychological factors in the Middle East is that defending one's homeland is such a sacred thing that many wouldn't even dare to think about criticizing acts done in its name, no matter how evil the act, or how little the act actually relates to homeland defense.

I'm beginning to believe it.

 

[Hurkyl]

There are Jews that teach hatred of Palestinian.
There are Jews that teach terrorism.
There are Jews that teach how to use weapons to kill Palestinian.

I neither confirm nor deny these statements. It would surprise me if they were false, though.


Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews.
There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.
There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.

 

[Bilal]

I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea? There are 9 millions Palestinian, we could have several thousands crazy people as in America, or any other country. I did not hear about ‘’Nation of peace angles!’’

I will answer honestly from my personal experience:

Now, I'll ask you again. Are you denying that:

There are Palestinians that teach hatred of Jews..

No need to teach them hatred of Jews, we used to see the Jews in our streets every day mistreating people, hitting our parent, teachers, shooting at houses for no reason , shouting ‘’death for Palestinian “ since we were kids. Of course our parents used to tell us those are called Jews. Sometimes we think that Jews is kind of ''savage group'' whom know nothing except killing others based on what we see.

In 1967, the Zionists destroyed my town and gave 1 hour to all people to leave … after that they murdered all the people they found in the town. Then they changed the name of the town and rebuild new Jews settlements after destruction of all historical sites (Roman Castle and Ottoman Palaces) … Due to the spread of diseases among the refugees, UN made pressure on Israel. They returned back after 80 days of miserable life. They found their town (5000 years old) removed from the surface of the earth!)
May be I am lucky that my family succeeded to return back, but there are 530 Palestinian towns not exist anymore, even they removed them from Atlas and history books.

It was sad situation but unavoidable ... t we had peaceful Jews friends and we used to play with their kids also ... so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.

There are Palestinians that teach terrorism.

Define the ''terrorism'' , if you call defending your homeland and your nation is terrorism , then the answer ''YES'', but if you define it as targeting civilian for fun , I do not think so ... I did not hear that Palestinian targeting Swedish, Russian, Brazilian ... they targeting the Israeli because of the conflict. End the occupation or give the Palestinian enough weapons, then you will not hear about what you call it ‘’terrorism’’

There are Palestinians that teach how to use weapons to kill Jews.
et cetera.

They used to teach us that Jews are powerful and they can murder all the Palestinian, so they scared us by Jews and asked us to avoid them.

 

[Hurkyl]

I believe in every nation you find some crazy people with extremist idea?

Right -- I believe that too.


Maybe you'll understand my attitude if you keep this fact in mind...

Every time someone mentions the Palestinian extremists, you go off and talk about Palestinians defending themselves, et cetera. It's as if it pains you to admit that there really are crazy Palestinian extremists out there.

Also, you love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists... but we already know there are crazy Jewish extremists, just as there are crazy extremists from every nation.


This is from where the double-standard accusation comes. You, and many other apologists for the Palestinians love to talk about the crazy Jewish extremists, but never like to talk about the crazy Palestinian extremists. The acceptable topics of discussion are Palestinian acts that aren't extremism, and Jewish acts that are extremism. Any discussion of extremist Palestinian acts are immediately derailed, as are discussions of Jewish acts that aren't extremism.


Even now, you demonstrate this. You even state that you know every nation has its crazy extremists, yet you immediately turn around and effectively answer "no" to each of my three questions.


Onto other things, your testimonials do not affect me either. I know bad things happen. They happen in Palestine, Israel, and everywhere else in the world too. So, when you give your testimonials, you're only telling me something I already know -- you're just putting in details that I didn't already have.

I find this especially irritating, because emotional appeals are a basic propaganda technique.

so we used to think that there are good and bad Jews.

Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?

 

[Bilal]

Of course I still do believe there many bad Zionists!
If Sharon got 86% of votes and 61% of Israeli Zionists want to kick us out of our country, then surly there are still many bad people among them.

I pray for them to accept one of these solutions:
1) One democratic State for all people in historical Palestine (Israel + WB +Gaza) which give equal rights for all citizens whatever their religion or race.
2) Split into two States: Jews State for Zionists and Democratic State for the rest (including moderate Jews)


Do you have another proposal? Could you tell me why the Zionist rejects both proposals by Palestinian?

Are you serious about the use of past tense here? As in you do not anymore?

 

[Hurkyl]

I meant my question in the opposite direction -- if you have stopped believing there are good Jews.

 

[1123581321]

I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned their back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned their meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed a lot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.

Fibonacci

P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.

 

[stoned]

you want to quick solution ? don't send them money !

 

[Bilal]

UN created two States based on the request of UK, USA and USSR...

Israel on 55% of historical Palestine
Palestine on 45 % of historical Palestine

Israel succeeded to get 78% of land in 1948!
There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally , USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.

Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?

The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.

In fact this American double standard ; they destroy Iraq and forced Syria to withdraw from Lebanon , also they want to destroy Iran in the name of UN resolutions, while Israel throw in the trash 70 resolutions and nobody can blame them!

Your argument about the history of the conflict is very biased and it will scatter the topic if we have to discuss it here …
Here more information about the question of Palestine in UN:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/

If you would like , I will provide the text of these resolutions

I propose a question:
Do you know what happens when two kids fight in school?
From my experience, both of them usually get punished, because both of them usually did something wrong to the other to provoke the fight.
question two:
who made the state of israel?
the U.N.
so then, why do the arabs not attack the U.N., is not the UN at fault?
Israel was attacked from day one, literally, and they fought back, even when the UN turned their back on the state they created. Then UN made this mess,, the UN should fix it. Israel has earned their meager patch of land, and palastine thiers. The way I see it, we all should sit back and let the UN fix it, unlike what the US and friends fixed in bosnia a few years back. As i recall, the UN didn't do a whole lot to help, just let the US do the fighting. Again, the UN let Iraq get out of control, because they passed a lot of resolutions and didn't do jack squat to enforce them.
I ask, what did we learn from this rant?
That we should blame the UN for all our problims.

Fibonacci

P.S. don't forget how the UN ****** up korea.

 

[Bilal]

I do not hate any community because of their religion or race. I know many good Jews and we used to work together. I am really sad for what happen for them through centuries, and I wish to see end of this conflict. Anti Jews crimes through history do not justify their current crimes against my nation.

AS I told you, I would like to live in one democratic State with equal rights for all people. But if the Jews want to have their own State, then they should leave the non Jews alone... we can split the country into two parts (Jews State and Democratic Palestine).

In Palestine , we (Muslims, Jews, Christian , non religious …) lived in peace for more than 1000 years before Zionism, so we can live again in peace , with or without Jews community (if they do not like to share the citizens of Holy Land their State)).

- They reject to establish one State for all people, because they want the Jews to be ‘’absolute majority’’
- They do not want to withdraw from Palestinian areas, because they believe there is no place for two States in historical Palestine?
Is that means they waiting suitable time to do ‘’final solution’’ for the Palestinian as Hitler did with them in 2WW?

Please let me if you have another proposal?

I meant my question in the opposite direction -- if you have stopped believing there are good Jews.

 

[kat]

Israel succeeded to get 78% of land in 1948!

This is the type of misinformation I referred to earlier on another thread.
80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the historical Jewish land as defined by the League of Nations was allocated by the British in 1921 to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was not allowed. The UN then partitioned the remaining 20ish percent of Palestine into two states. One of which was excepted by the Jews and the other refused by the Arab league. Jordan then annexed the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt took control of Gaza, Arabs then controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held only around 17%.

 

[Bilal]

In fact I got the only document for League of Nations about Palestine from the UN site (Please read the original documents instead to follow ‘’propaganda’’, (The Jews should get only few isolated settelments less than 10% of Palestine and Trasnjoradn was considered as independent country (not allowed for Jews immigration)):

League of Nations 30 November 1937

C.495.M.336.1937.VI.
Geneva, November 30th, 1937. LEAGUE OF NATIONS, MANDATES,P A L E S T I N E


Chapter XI. - Trans-Jordan

((The articles of the Mandate concerning the National Home do not apply to Trans-Jordan and the possibility of enlarging the National Home by Jewish immigration into Trans-Jordan rests on the assumption of concord between Arabs and Jews.))

((According to an approximate estimate, in the area allocated to the Jewish State (excluding the urban districts to be retained for a period under Mandatory Administration) there are now about 225,000 Arabs. In the area allocated to the Arab State there are only about 1,250 Jews; but there are about 125,000 Jews as against 85,000 Arabs in Jerusalem and Haifa..))


Here is copy from the original report and maps of LN from UN site:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/08e38a718201458b052565700072b358!OpenDocument

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/fb142c75310db0a90525655600795225/$FILE/palestine1.jpg

In this link of UN you can find all the documents of LN and UN related to Palestine:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/vMaps!OpenView&Start=1

This means that LN gave much less to the Jews than UN offer!


This map shows the partition plan, which is the basic of creation of two States: Jews State (55%) and Palestinian State (45%) 1947:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument

This is the type of misinformation I referred to earlier on another thread.
80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the historical Jewish land as defined by the League of Nations was allocated by the British in 1921 to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was not allowed. The UN then partitioned the remaining 20ish percent of Palestine into two states. One of which was excepted by the Jews and the other refused by the Arab league. Jordan then annexed the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt took control of Gaza, Arabs then controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held only around 17%.

 

[kat]

Nothing you've posted contradicts my statements. Maybe there's some miscommunication here.

 

[Bilal]

Show me any moral justification for creation of Israel?
Do you believe that Palestinian (Muslims and christian) should simply leave their homeland to live under miserable conditions in refugees camps, because UK decided to give their country to other nation! or because the god told the Jews 3000 years ago that Palestine is their promised land? or because some Jews tribes lived in part in Palestine 2000 years ago?

In fact I do not see any moral justification for establishing Jews homeland in country that already full by people since many centuries. Also Muslims and christen have religious and historical rights in Palestine.

Suppose UK wanted to give all ME to the Jews, is that means we should respect the decision of this colonial Empire who care only about their interest, and who want to create permenant tragedies to other nations as they did in Kashmir, Iraq and Kurdistan?

Nothing you've posted contradicts my statements. Maybe there's some miscommunication here.

 

[Hurkyl]

Ah, so we should listen to the Europeans when they say things in your favor, but we shouldn't listen to the Europeans when they say things that aren't in your favor?

 

[Bilal]

I do not ask to listen or not, but Palestine is not part of UK to give it to another nation.

May be because we retuned back to root of problem we start to speak about moral justification of creating Israel, but it is exist now and we can not change the things. It is better to look for peaceful solution...

I still would like to hear your opinion about proposal solution?!

Ah, so we should listen to the Europeans when they say things in your favor, but we shouldn't listen to the Europeans when they say things that aren't in your favor?

 

[sid_galt]

Show me any moral justification for creation of Israel?
Do you believe that Palestinian (Muslims and christian) should simply leave their homeland to live under miserable conditions in refugees camps, because

And could you provide any official and reliable sources which say that Palestinians were FORCED to leave their property behind and relocate elsewhere?

 

[Bilal]

During wars , many civilians leave their houses especially after such horrible massacres ( for example: Dair Yassin massacre)
Dair Yassin massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Al-Dawayima massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre

Al-Kabri massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kabri_massacre

Al-Tantura massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Tantura&action=edit

Al-Khisas massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khisas_massacre

Lydda massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lydda_massacre&action=edit


Here is one of cases that Rabin himeslf (former Isareli PM) admitted about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydda_and_Ramle

((Lydda and Ramle during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Lydda and Ramle were two medium-sized towns that were located on the strategically important Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road. In the 1948 war between the Zionist and Palestinian forces in Israel/Palestine, Israeli forces took the town and expelled the towns' residents, an estimated 50,000 Palestinians, at gunpoint.
David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel, ordered the expulsion of the Palestinians and Yitzhak Rabin, the IDF officer in command, carried it out.
The order to expel the Palestinians and the operation itself were described in a passage of a book by Yitzhak Rabin, which was censored by the Israeli government but secretly copied and released by its translator.

The most well known Israeli zionist historian (Benny Morris) admitted in his books about zionism crimes and the roots of Palestinian refugees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

((Benny Morris is a prominent Jewish, Zionist, Israeli historian. He is considered the most influential and prolific member of the New Historians, a group of scholars who have challenged much of the received wisdom of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.))

((In his studies of the origins of the Palestinian refugee problem, Morris argues that the approximately 700,000 Palestinians who fled from their homes in 1947 left mostly due to Israeli actions or fear of Israeli actions, but not as the result of a preexisting expulsion plan.))

New Israeli Historians admitted also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

((The New Historians are a loosely-defined group of Israeli historians who have declared as their goal the reexamination of the history of Israel and Zionism. They are sometimes referred to as Post-Zionists.))

((In particular, they claim that at least a portion of the Palestinian refugees were driven away from their homes, rather than fleeing of their own choice, as previously claimed.))

 

[sid_galt]

During wars , many civilians leave their houses especially after such horrible massacres ( for example: Dair Yassin massacre)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Here is one of cases that Rabin himeslf (former Isareli PM) admitted about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydda_and_Ramle

((Lydda and Ramle during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Lydda and Ramle were two medium-sized towns that were located on the strategically important Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road. In the 1948 war between the Zionist and Palestinian forces in Israel/Palestine, Israeli forces took the town and expelled the towns' residents, an estimated 50,000 Palestinians, at gunpoint.
David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel, ordered the expulsion of the Palestinians and Yitzhak Rabin, the IDF officer in command, carried it out.
The order to expel the Palestinians and the operation itself were described in a passage of a book by Yitzhak Rabin, which was censored by the Israeli government but secretly copied and released by its translator.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (III)
11 December 1948

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

You are talking about war which was initiated by the Arabs while I was talking about the creation of Israel. War always will hurt people, innocent or not. Israel has full rights to defend itself during a war.

Because Palestinians were forced to relocate during a war which was initiated by themselves, does in no way discredit the morality of the creation of Israel.

 

[Bilal]

You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin... unfortunately you changed the argument again!

War of creation of Israel is very logical for many reasons:

1- It is not possible to create Jews homeland in areas where Palestinian the majority, therefore no choice for Zionist except to expel as many as possible from the Palestinian people (ethic cleansing)

2- UN resolutions is rejected by both sides, because the Zionist organizations (Lihi and Itzel-Argun) wanted to take Palestine and Jordan completely and to kick all the non Jews to Iraq. The Zionists forces formed from : Hagnah , Etzel and Lihi … you can read more Itzel and Lihi here to see what their opinion about the UN resolution and their contribution in the war, beside their collaboration with NAZI in 2WW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

(Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") was a radical self-described terrorist group that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.))
Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration.jpg

Irgun (Etzel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

((• From July 1946 until June 1948, Irgun fought as irregulars against the British mandate and Arab forces, informally in coordination with Haganah forces. Their participation in alleged "war crimes" at Deir Yassin has been widely discussed and documented. Their largest single operation was a successful assault on Jaffa (an Arab enclave according to the UN partition plan) starting on May 25.

• In 1948, the group was formally dissolved and its members integrated into the newly formed Israeli Defense Forces. This integration largely coincided with the sinking of the Altalena, a ship with fighters Irgun had recruited and arms Irgun had acquired for Israeli forces. ))

In fact the Palestinian war started during 2WW, because one from three Zionist organizations promised the NAZI German to assists them and declared war against UK and the Palestinian. After the UN resolution the war became more serious and 35000 Arab fighters joined several thousands of Palestinian fighters to defend their homeland against 90000 Zionist soldiers (Hagnah, Irgun and Lihi) with advance weapon.

You are talking about war which was initiated by the Arabs while I was talking about the creation of Israel. War always will hurt people, innocent or not. Israel has full rights to defend itself during a war.

Because Palestinians were forced to relocate during a war which was initiated by themselves, does in no way discredit the morality of the creation of Israel.

 

[1123581321]

The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, until you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have a lot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that their savior had come, but became their own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.

Fibonacci

 

[Bilal]

You have good points about one nation in one land for all religions. In fact Palestinian is nation who could represent all religions. We are multi religion nation as any other nation in this world and everybody is free to choose his religion.

Muslims conquered Palestine from Roman in 632. In that time no Jews is allowed to live in Jerusalem, and they suffer a lot because the church claimed their responsibility about "blood of Jesus". During Muslims rule, Jews are allowed to live everywhere, and they established Jews region in Jerusalem for the first time since 3 centuries.

In the end of 11th century, the European Catholic declared holy war to liberate the Land of Jesus from Muslims and Jews. They succeeded to occupy Jerusalem in 1099. They murdered all the citizens of this city including 60000 Muslims and 4000 Jews beside the Eastern Christian (who already lived in peace for 5 centuries). They believed that Palestine is only belong to the nation of Jesus ... after 200 years of horrible wars, Muslims and Jews returned back to live in peace with Christian. Till end of 19th century , Among the Palestinian nation, 20% Christian and 5% Jews. It was land of all refugees and people who suffer from aggression: Jews immigration from Russia 1860-1882, Jews immigration from Spain: 1495-1515, Chechen immigration due Russian invasion: 1850, Bosnian immigration due to civil war: 1870, Armenian (Christian) immigration from Turkey: 1917.

The problem started when extreme nationalist European Jews decided in 1897 to create ''Jews State" (you can compare that with Crusaders who want Christian State without unbelievers). They got promise from UK in 1917 to start their project ignoring the right of 2 Millions Muslims, Christian and even Palestinian Jews (Sumerian Jews).

Unfortunately, it seems the history repeat itself.. Although the propaganda against Islam theses day, it seems only Muslims who tolerate with both Jews and Christian of Palestine...

I do believe we should again establish one democratic State and everybody can care about his holy places. I am talking about my lovely country not about mosque or church. I want to see peace in my homeland and I want everybody to accept the right of others to live as human.

I wish it is matter of time till the Zionists accept to live in one democratic country for different religions.

The way I see it, there is no solution to the Middle East issue. There will always be zionists and jihadists and rich slobs who want more land, until you kill every human being, there will be no peace. War is a fact of life, and we should just accept it and move on. Until one nation prevails and takes control of all the land, there will always be conflict. The Holy Land cannot be split in 3(Jewish, Muslim, Christian), nor can one rule without conflict, because it is that complix. These three religions really have a lot in common, infact you can almost say that each is a sect of the jewish religion. Unless i read the bible wrong, before Abriham had Isaac, he had another son who could be called the patriarch of Islam, while Isaac the patriarch of jewdism. This is where the 'promised land' problim, because many argue that this other son was abriham's first born, thus he owns abrimam's land, not isaac. Christianity came about later, and was, at first, jews who believed that their savior had come, but became their own religion when a leader, a pope, St. Peter came about. This is a very deep question, and merits a deep answer. The best solution is one state which represents all religions, but that is a far off goal and can only come about if the world gives much sacrifice and blood.
I hope that that is a good explination for you.

Fibonacci

 

[kat]

Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Kat,

For analysis of any historical event we should follow two rules:

1- Taking into consideration the time of the event, then compare it with other events in that time. For example: I can not compare the constitution of Ottoman Empire with the current European constitution , but I can compare the Ottoman Empire , with Britain Empire , with Russian Empire , French Empire and Spanish empire … because all of these Empires exist in the same time scale : 16th till 19th century.
2- We should compare the situation of every community with the rest of people. For example, in 11the century an Egyptian ruler claim that he is ‘’the god’’ and all other religion should worship him. He invaded Palestine and murdered many Muslims, Christian and Jews. He stopped by large Islamic army from Iraq and he was killed by Muslims.
This accident considered one of reasons of Crusaders war, because they count the number of Christian victims and they ignored what this crazy Egyptian ruler did with Muslims and Jews.

I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:

- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims canceled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.
-
May be some Jews communities suffer from time to time through centuries, which is the case of other communities also, but surely they have good luck to live among Muslims than to live under control of the church of middle ages. This is what the former Israeli president said (Ezer Wiseman)

Here you can find more academic information about Jews and Christian under Islamic rule in middle ages.

http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/ab92b7630fca3a9ea19afeb4da09e526.html

Academic information about Dhimmi in Islam (protected people)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Bilal, while I would agree that Europian Christians were certianly guilty of a greater cruelty to jews then Muslims pre-1900's, the rosey picture you paint for Jews under Muslim rule is not at all historically honest.

 

[sid_galt]

You asked about proof that Palestinian forced to leave their homes, and I provided it from Israeli sources including the personal book of Rabin... unfortunately you changed the argument again!

Sorry I was not clear enough. I meant evidence that Palestinians were forcefully evicted at the time Israel was created before the Arabs started the war. Can you provide evidence for that?

arab-israeli war

At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.

Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.

Any wonder that the Jews wanted their own state and fought against the Arabs?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php

Immediately after the adoption of United Nations Resolution 181 (II) on November 29, 1947, to partition the country into Jewish and Arab states with Jerusalem as a corpus separatum, Arab delegates declared their opposition to partition and their determination to fight it by force if necessary. Palestinian Arabs (including veterans of the 1936-9 Arab Revolt, members of Arab youth organizations, and police) quickly initiated hostilities against the Jewish population. They were soon joined by volunteers from neighboring Arab states. Jewish forces were organized mostly in the Haganah (underground militia) with a fulltime component of about 4,000, most of those members of the Palmach.

The early Arab attacks resembled the Arab Revolt of 1936-9, with attacks on villages and terrorism in the cities. A volunteer "Arab Liberation Army" led by the Syrian Fawzi el Kawukji attacked in the Jezreel Valley, while volunteers from Jebel Druze staged an attack near Haifa. Both were unsuccessful.

But on May 15, 1948 with the termination of the Mandate, the declaration of the State of Israel, and the British departure, the states of the Arab League (armies from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and a token force from Saudi Arabia) invaded the new country with the declared intent of destroying it.

The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.

 

[sid_galt]

I will provide some examples about historical Jews-Muslims relations:

- Roman did not let the Jews to live in Jerusalem, and they rejected to give the city to Muslims till they sign agreement declared that no Jews is allowed to live in this City. After few years, Jews are allowed to build their quarter in this city by the help of Muslims.
- During crusaders wars in ME (especially after the massacre of Jerusalem), Jews and Muslims united and they fought bravely the crusaders. After Saladin liberated Jerusalem in 1187, he built first the Jews Quarter.
- Jews golden age was in Spain for 800 years. Muslims canceled ‘’the cloth code’’ of Jews and let them to be active community in the Islamic civiliastaion. This golden age end in 1495, when Spanish kicked out the Moorish, so Jews faced the same fate of Muslims. Ottoman Empire sent many ships to Spain to save the Jews from the hands of the church and let them to settle in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt …..
- Ottoman Empire welcomed the Jews of Russia from 1860 till 1882. They built two Jews cities in Palestine by the help of native people: Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira. Tis two cities are considered the oldest two Israeli cities now.
- During 2WW, Albanian and Turkish saved many Jews families from the NAZI.
- During Islamic golden ages, Baghdad 10th century, ten thousands of Jews settled in Baghdad. They contributed in different sciences and translations of ancient literature.

Any Sources for this information?

 

[Hurkyl]

According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.

(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)

 

[Bilal]

I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.

From your first source:

((At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.))

It is clear who the source of the problems: the Zionism project to create Jews State one land of other nation ignoring the rights of Muslims and Christine. By the way, many repels in that time were Christian Palestinian, and one of their leader called Faud Hujazi (from Hebron) was hanged in the jail of Acca by the British occupation forces.

((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

It is clear who started to attack after the UN partition plan? Irgun, Lihi and Hagnah, after 3 weeks of Zionist attacks , the Palestinian started to organize themselves to fight back!

((The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict. ))

Arab countries decided to join the fighting after the Zionists murdered all the citizens of the village Dair Yassin. The kidnapped many girls and raped them in public in western Jerusalem to terrorize the Palestinian, such barbarism forced thousands of Arab to participate and to protect the Palestinian civilians.

((To lift the siege, the Jewish forces (guided by the American Army Colonel David (Mickey) Marcus) constructed the Burma Road (named for the road built by the Allies from Burma to China during World War II..))

Many American and European participate the fighting against Palestinian people, so why you think it is legal for them to fight with Zionists, but another Arab are not allowed?

(( On May 10, Golda Meir represented the Yishuv in the last of a long series of clandestine meetings between the Zionists and Transjordan's King Abdullah. Whereas for months there had been a tacit agreement between the Zionists and Transjordan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Transjordan taking over the Arab areas, at the May 10 meeting Abdullah offered the Yishuv leadership only autonomy within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. This was unacceptable to the Jewish leadership. ))

In fact Arab governments helped the Zionists more than their help to Palestine. Zionists made many secret agreements with kings of (Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt). They were puppet in the hands of UK, but also they could not stop the anger of their nations after Dair Yassin massacre.

((In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

I wish you can read how the gap between the two forces, even after Arab nations joined the war! Suppose the rest of Arab did not participate, then the Zionists will stop after the death of last Palestinian.

I wish to read your source carefully … it contain many interested information from Israeli sources

arab-israeli war

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_arab_countries.php

The Arabs started the war against Israel and Israel staunchly defended itself. As I said before, trouble to the general populace is inevitable during war.

 

[Bilal]

It is well known that Byzantines banned Jews to live in Jerusalem (not the rest of Palestine) till Muslims got the city through agreement.

According to Wikipedia, Hadrian essentially banned Judaism after a bloody revolt around 135 AD, but the Byzantines had already reversed that by the 5th century.

(Note that the Byzantines were the Christian...)