In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Yonoz]

From the Israeli newspaper Haartz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=560441&contrassID=1&subContrassID=9&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=

((A majority of Jewish Israelis believe that the state should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate, according to a survey conducted by the Dahaf Institute on behalf of Madar, the Palestinian Center for Israel Studies.))

If this is the best argument you can come up with to support your claims that Judaism or Zionism are based on "superiority of Jews and racism against the native people", I'm quite content - unlike any of its neighbours, Israel is democratic and people here are entitled to their opinions, just like there are Arab-Israeli parliament members who participate in Palestinian rallies and visit Syria thanks to their PM immunity. That's also why the CEO of the Ministry of Interior is an Israeli Arab and it's also why a lot of them serve in the Security Forces, in all ranks. That's democracy and that's why Arab-Israelis flourish here, as opposed to their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There's still a long way to go, but we're on the right track - Israel's less than 60 years old, filled with resentment like you'd expect a country that has known a war for every decade it's been in existence, and yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia. There is also far more violence between Muslim, Christian and Druze Arabs than there is between Arabs and Jews. You look at that survey and see hatred, I look at it and see hope.

((The survey also found that only 34 percent of Jewish Israelis support a peace deal that entails a full withdrawal to the 1967 borders, while 65 percent oppose it.))

I oppose it too, if it means giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinian State - that's why I don't pay attention to surveys unless I see the exact questions asked - there's so many ways you can craft questions to make the survey appear as you'd like it.

The Israeli Arab live in peace in Israel since 1948 and many of them are working in the Israeli army, so why the Jews hate them and want them to leave the land of there forefathers since thousands of years? Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.

Where does the survey say anything about hate? You see it as a natural solution to the conflict for Israelis to leave places they've lived in for over a generation, but when some Israelis think the country should encourage Arabs to leave it suddenly becomes a matter of racial hatred.
As far as superiority is concerned, when I get stopped by police it often is an Arab policeman, I served under an Arab officer in the Army and the most holy site to Jews is entirely run and controlled by Muslims - most of the time I can't visit there even if I wanted, whereas Muslims have free access - does that fit in with your view of Judaism/Zionism as "based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people"?

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134

This is the result of Egyptian research by Safa Abdel Aal, an education expert, about Israeli education system. She work with several International organizations and her reports

Oh please. I take you seriously, please don't insult my intelligence with this kind of nonsensical propaganda. Do you want me to start linking to Right-Wing Israeli sites with hatred articles?

Young Israelis are educated about the army as early as the 11th grade, with five days of training that includes learning how to shoot.

A year later, school students receive counseling from a young soldier about draft procedures.

What's wrong with that exactly? If anything, there needs to be more counselling. Do you think Israel should not have an Army?

Serving in the Israeli army, which comprises 190.000 elements and 450.000 reservists, is mandatory.

Guess why that's necessary? It sure does our economy wonders to be paying for that gigantic army. And still, instead of wiping out Palestinians en masse like you'd expect such a racist Army to be doing, it uses tear gas and rubber bullets whenever possible.

((“The main tasks of the Israeli education system are meant to implanting the seeds of hatred and fear from the other in the Israeli youngsters and tarnishing the image of Arabs in the eyes of the current and future Israeli generations,” she stressed.

She further noted that the gravity of such an Israeli racist education system lies in the fact that the Israeli children, since their prime years, are being fed with hatred, grudge and superiority against Arabs, in particular, and others, in general. ))


“The Arabs are given mean descriptions in the Israeli textbooks such as thugs and thieves,” she said, citing two examples of anti-Arab sentences in the Israeli textbooks to prove her case.

One such clause speak about the “sacrifices” made by early Jewish generations, “despite a harsh climate and an environment full of the Arab embezzlers, thieves and terrorists”.

A second refers to the city of Taparia as a place which is suffering from insecurity and fear from the Arab killers.

The Israeli textbooks also include anti-Arab sentences such as “Arab thieves”, “Arabs are bastards thirsty for the Jewish bloods”, and “underdeveloped Arabs”.))

I do not, need sources because I completed my school studies in Palestine so my personal experience is enough, there are two stages of Palestinian education system, before and after 1994:

Seems like they taught you English well. By the way, guess where I completed my school studies? I guess it wasn't in Israel, if that description above is to be believed.

1967-1994

- All our textbooks and all the books in Palestine, whether school books or general books, should be signed by the military Israeli ruler in my region. The Israeli military leader have the right to ban any book or publication without even mentioning the reason.

No he doesn't. Israel has laws, as well as a http://62.90.71.124/eng/home/index.html, which is often bashed by the right-winged extremists and lately even by Parliament members for "caring for Palestinians more than Jews". Palestinians regularly appeal to the courts and the High Court often deals with Palestinian issues - no one in Israel has, or ever had absolute power over the Palestinians without having to answer to the courts when an appeal is made.

- In all our school books, it is not allowed to mention the world ‘’Palestine or Palestinian’’. Even on the maps, they replaced it by Israel. All the Palestinian names are deleted and replaced by Hebrew names. This includes Atlas, geography and history books. (In that moment, we used to buy the Jordanian Atlas from black market because it was banned for mentioning Palestine)

- Not allowed to study anything about modern history or geography of Palestine. We used to study about geography and history of all ME and Europe, but not our country!

By saying you did not study modern Palestinian History, do you mean you did not study about the Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Turks and the British Mandate? As I posted above - until the PLO Palestinians had no leadership, and even right now, you can't give a definition of "Palestinian" that'll satisfy everyone, including the Palestinians themselves - do you think the Israelis that set up you education system could've come up with something that you'd be satisfied with? Sounds to me like they were trying to give you education without getting into politics - would you rather Israel would not have set up an education system in the territories? What was it like prior to 1967? What was it like for your brothers in Jordan and Syria? I don't think they got compulsory education, correct me if I'm wrong.

- Every teacher mention the name ‘’Palestine’’ or talk about Palestinian problem will be expelled immediately, and in some cases he will be send to the jail for 6 months.

- If the Israeli military ruler visits our school, all the students and teachers should stand near the road for reception. Any teacher do not join the reception will be expelled and the students will be punished.

Can you support these claims? Seeing as until now this wasn't "personal experience".

From my personal experience:

((In forth class of elementary school , the teacher of Arabic language asked us about the name of our country …. Only 3 students among 30 answered ‘’Palestine’’, while the rest answered ‘’Jordan or West Bank’’ (This show how the Israeli regulations were strict to delete ‘’Palestine from the memory of people). The teacher told us that our country called Palestine, but the Zionist occupied it. After one week later we never see that teacher again! ))

Seriously, do you expect Israel to run an education system that teaches its students that it occupies their land?

((In 1982, an Israeli military leader decided to visit our town. In that time many people were sad because of Sabra and Chatila massacre. They sent ordered that all the students (kids) should stand near the main street for reception of the Israeli leader by using different music instruments. During that horrible day, we had to stand under the sun from morning till after noon without rest, food or drink. Five teachers who did not join the reception are expelled or transferred to very far schools as punishment))

I suppose I'll have to take your word for the validity of this account, though I sense you're exaggerating things a bit. Whatever happened on that day, you managed to fit Sabra and Shatila nicely into the story - nice work.

After 1994:

As result and support of Oslo agreement, EU decided to print all the school textbooks. They mentioned for the first time ‘’Palestine” beside Israel. They deleted all Koran verses or any comments could disappoint the Jews. These school texts follow the European standard.

I don't get it, those Koran verses appeared in the textbooks before 1994? And are we talking about Jews, Israelis or the EU?

However, respected US and European research institutes found Palestinian textbooks free from any incitement to hatred, The International Herald Tribune reported December 18, 2004.

Can you support that claim? A link would be nice.

I would love to give some of my own personal accounts, but I don't think anyone here is silly enough to believe personal accounts from someone who obviously is trying to prove a point.

 

[klusener]

Here's the link:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.php

But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.

Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel, meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the same, they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?

 

[Yonoz]

First: Jews immigrants after 1897 (Zionism) are different than those who came to Palestine in 1860-1882 and built Beteh Teqwa and Hudaira by the help of the native people. If the native people hate the Jews, they can simply kicked them out in first wave of Russian Jews immigration in 1860-1882 bacuse the military and political leadership in the hand of Palestinian in that time (Jazzar in North-Acca and Zahir Omari in Middle, while the South under control of Ibrahim basha). They welcomed the Jews refugees as they did with Bosnian (Bushnaq - Yugoslavia)), Armenian (Turkey), Bahae (Iran), Chechen (Russia).

The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realized Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself.

Second: Jews immigration after 1917 is part of the Anglo-.Zionism strategy of creation of Jews national homeland in Palestine

I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?

...ignoring the rights of native people or their feelings. Therefore , it is logical that Palestinian (Muslims , Christian, atheists, liberal, right wing , left wing …) to fight back to protect their country.

So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.

You can call it terrorism, but the reality it is defensive war against horrible imperialist project.

I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realized there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.

Those who decided to fight Zionism and English occupation are heroes in the eyes of every Palestinian, the same as you consider Ben Gurion or Golda Maer hero in the eyes of every Zionists.

Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.

Third: Palestinian are living under occupation, so they are the victims. Even the resistance does some mistakes, they still high morally than the occupation authority who force complete nation to live under horrible conditions for generations.

Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.

 

[loseyourname]

What you mean ? how they can be taken OTHER way around, it is like black on white ? Isaraelis stole Palestinian Land, and Palestinians are fighting until this very day, show me other group of people with that much honor and courage .

You're talking about what you think actually happened. I'm talking about what is being said in the quotation. They aren't necessarily related.

 

[klusener]

I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?

because the Zionists wanted that entire land, instead of just a piece as offered by the British..

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized ... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever." Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

- from Bilal's post earlier

Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.

Isn't he already using his energy peacefully?

 

[Hurkyl]

But that comment you made about English is a pathetic.

Are you talking about "Seems like they taught you English well."? I'm pretty sure he wasn't being sarcastic...

 

[klusener]

It doesn't matter if he was being sarcastic or not, if Arabic was used commonly in a forum, then he would be the clearest and yonoz or me for that matter would type like bumbling idiots.. :)

Edit: or you for that matter too.. just kidding friend.

 

[Yonoz]

it is even harder to define who is jewish and who just took on jewish religion and had absolutelly nothing in common with hebrews who lived in m.east.

Wrong. I'm sorry but I don't have the time to run you through Jewish History, but I guarantee, it's quite repetitive
As for who is Jewish, it's quite simple - from a religious perspective, if your mother's Jewish, you're Jewish. When previously unknown Jewish communities are discovered, such as the case with the Ethiopian Jews, there's always some unltra-orthodox who'll claim they're not Jewish but you can see they practice customs that are practiced only by Jewish people - quite amazing since we've been apart for thousands of years. There's also some genetic traits, some of which are unique to one of the 12 tribes (we know this because this tribe's decendants have unique surnames).

90 % of you are ancestors of people from russian steppes who took on judaism as their official religion.

How do you know who I'm an ancestor of? Just kidding. I guess you meant my ancestors - can you back that up with a reliable source?

for example in 1991 your government evacuated black jews from Ethiopia yes black, that is almost same story as with jews from russia.

That's right, black. They practice near similar Judaism - whatever the historical reasons for that, the State of Israel is a home to Jews everywhere, and when the Ethiopian Jewry was endangered by the ongoing strife there, we brought them here - is that wrong?

Ethiopians in ancient times took on judaism, outside of that zero similarity with ancient hebrews.

ok - does that make them less Jewish? Because they're black?

so you see each and every palestinian has 1000 X more right to that land than all of you combined, "jews" today are modern day squatters living on stolen land, what is keeping you still there against all odds is unfortunatelly naivitee and dumbness of Americans who as you must well know give billions of $ to the state of Israel.

Well that's a very simplistic view. Seems like the naive one is yourself. Moreover, you don't know your history, as the ties with the US became strong only after the French gave up on us in the 70s because of Arab pressure.
Let me ask you just one question: if Israel is stolen land, where should Jews have established their homeland?

 

[stoned]

That's democracy and that's why Arab-Israelis flourish here, as opposed to their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There's still a long way to go, but we're on the right track - Israel's less than 60 years old, filled with resentment like you'd expect a country that has known a war for every decade it's been in existence, and yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia. craft questions to make the survey appear as you'd like it.
.

how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ? palestinian society was quite democratic and liberal but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.

 

[Yonoz]

- Lihi and Itzel rejected UN plan and decided to occupy Jordan and to kick the two nations to Iraq.

Sounds like a respectable group of straight-minded individuals! I wonder why so few people followed them...

You can read again about these two groups. Zionism are represented by three groups ; Hagnah, Itzel and Lihi ... so two among them used terrorism and ethic cleansing (e.g. Dair Yassin) as public strategy , while Haganah used to ''kill and to apologies'' .

Yep, 2 out of 3 groups - that must mean that most Zionists of that time were members in those 2 groups - 2 is more than 1 right? Come on Bilal, I asked you not to insult my intelligence. YOU should read about them again and see how many members were in those groups and how many were in the Haganah. When did the Haganah "kill and apologise"? Even if they did, it's more than you can ever say about Palestinian "freedom fighters".

- No doubt that Begin and shmire (Itzel and Lihi) were big terrorists.

Very big. They started the method of sending people to blow busloads of civilians up eh?

Begin did peace agreement with Egypt, because he wanted to declare more wars in the East, so it is good chance to make Egypt neutral.

So Begin tricked the poor Egyptians? and they signed a trick peace treaty? and then he made war in the East? against who?

His comments about peace during signing the agreement are very logical. Or you want him to say we should kill all the Arab?

No, just like I don't expect him to sign a trick peace treaty.

- Except Shimon Peres, could you mention one Zionist leader who his hands are clean from Palestinians blood?

Um, all of them?

- Arafat awarded also Nobel prise , and the zionists call him terrorist.

Let's see, Arafat lives and there's fighting. Arafat is dead - and there's a peace process. Also, I never heard of anyone who accepts a peace prize, or a Nobel prize, in military uniform.

Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.

 

[Yonoz]

First: Any Jews should be allowed to buy land in Palestine, but you can not create State from these lands! If I have enough money I can buy large Areas in USA … but this not means it is legally to created ‘’independent Bilalian State’’ in USA soil!

What if your land had been ruled at first by empires no longer in existence and then by a third country under a UN mandate, and you had a UN resolution that called for the establishment of Bilalia - would that be enough? How about all these other nations, have they been in existence since the beginning of time?

Second: Here is from the UN site. Official secret English report show the reality of the problem and the lands owned by Jews:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

(((On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office for the use of the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine is as follows:

"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."))

((Similarly, a number of Jewish organizations such as the Colonisation Department of the Zionist Organization, financed by the Keren ha-Yesod, were actively engaged in acquisition of land both for individual immigrant families as well as for the Yishuv or Jewish settlements. Several of these organizations had been operating since the nineteenth century, notably the Palestine Jewish Colonisation Association (PICA)*. With the British occupation of Palestine in 1918 all land transactions were suspended. The registers were reopened in 1920, at which time it was estimated that Jewish land acquisitions stood at about 650,000 dunums** or 2.5 per cent of the total land area of 26 million dunums). 71/ By the end of the decade this figure had nearly doubled to 1,200,000 dunums,
just below 5 per cent.))

((If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace." ))

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?

 

[klusener]

yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia.

Israeli Arabs had full civil rights here long before the English landed in Australia.

 

[Joel]

This thread has since long lost its humanistic begginning, and whatever diplomatic or academic purpose it may have had at some point.

With that said, I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

 

[Yonoz]

Here's the link:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.php

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".

meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the same

Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.

they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?

Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Yonoz]

I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

 

[Joel]

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

Yes, a lot of things. From both you and Bilal. However, without some sincere intellectual honesty and effort I see this thread becoming the justice-flamewar of the month.

Keep it cool and keep on saving Thanks!

Oh, and it means nothing, it was just my oppinion.

 

[klusener]

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

I think you misunderstood my comment.

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

 

[Yonoz]

how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ?

So I suppose you expect all Israelis to sit quietly as our blood is spilled. It was clearly shown, and acknowledged by the EU, that the PA under Arafat was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Israelis#The_al-Aqsa_Intifada and encouraging acts of terror against civilian targets in Israel. Since there was no democracy to begin with, the least harmful option (other than to do nothing) was to attack Arafat's power base. There is no more of that going on today, as Arafat is dead. Every target was carefuly chosen and analysed, and you'll find that the PA is closer to democracy today than it ever was under Arafat.

palestinian society was quite democratic and liberal

You must be living in another world.

but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.

We have tried giving them land, that's how the PA was formed, what we got in return was PA-supported bloodshed - these bombings are during the most intensive negotiations, they use them as leverage to gain more at the negotiations. In 2000 the same happened in 2000 when the left-wing Labour party was elected, and we all thought this is it, we'll have peace now, but like someone said once, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Before Barak lost the next election he offered them a treaty so good it caused an outrage in Israel, but they still said no! Currently, the PA would not sign a peace treaty unless it meets terms that we can not agree to - like giving up Jerusalem, our capital (personaly I would not object to an intricate internationalization, but I understand those who want to keep it Israeli). That's why Sharon has been forced to carry out the disengagement plan, and it will happen in 4 months (it's a little hard to move tens of thousands of people with their businesses and belongings, especially if they're resisting). So far, Israel is making most of the concessions in the peace process.

 

[Yonoz]

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

 

[klusener]

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

thanks for the links..

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

still reading the first pdf, well downloading it right now.. i appreciate your effort in getting the links again..

 

[Yonoz]

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

Is that a pro-Bush comment?

 

[klusener]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

 

[Yonoz]

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

Think what you like, have you seen some of their content? The only people who would commit themselves to translate Arab media would obviously have some agenda - you just have to know how to separate fact from opinion. They also cover positive events, too, it gives good insight into the reform in the Arab world. I'd be glad if you could direct me to a service that does similar work and you consider unbiased.
Anyway, I'd rather hear what's really on PA TV from a westerner than from a Palestinian.

 

[Yonoz]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

Yeah I guess there are some advantages to living in the Middle East.
Oh well, it's way past my bed time - night everyone :zzz:

 

[klusener]

No, the links I clicked on when I visited the site seemed to invite Western anger, for example: Anti-American Cartoons, Common Antisemitic Cartoons, Jews and Israelis as Nazis and Hitler, and Jews and Israelis Controlling the U.S. Government.

I mean there has to be atleast one Arab newspaper that publishes good cartoons, right? Why don't they show those?

That's what prompted me to type that.. maybe I should spend some more time on the site..

Edit: have a good night ;)

 

[russ_watters]

Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on.

It wasn't my thread.

This is part of the problem. I can understand how you arrive at your interpretation of things, even if I don't agree with it. You can't even understand how we arrived at our interpretation, even after I said how!

Is it because you don't try? Are you faking incredulity, because you think admitting you see how we got our viewpoint would be a show of weakness?

This is so huge, I want to re-emphasize it: I freely acknowledge that the Israelis are doing bad things. Demolishing settlements is one of those things. Simultaneously, the Palestinians do have some claim to the land. So why won't the other side of this argument acknowledge the complimentary points: why won't you guys acknowledge that the Israelis also have a legitimate claim to the land? Why won't those of you on the other side of the argument acknowledge that the neighboring arabs and Palestinians are doing bad things?

Why are some people unwilling to even look at both sides of the issue? If you make an honest effort to see both sides and come to a conclusion different than mine, fine. Different people can reasonably disagree. Heck, I can even accept strong bias if there is a good reason for it (ie, a Arab who has a loved-one die in an Israeli rocket attack has a good excuse for irrational bias - even hatred). But even then, you still have to try. But what is just plain unacceptable is an outright refusal to even try be objective. That is actually what such conflicts are based on.

The whole reason that there seems to be progress is that there are now in power in both groups, leaders that appear to be making an honest effort to let go of their biases and look for a reasonable solution that both could accept.

[late edit for grammar]

 

[Yonoz]

Well said.

 

[Joel]

Very well said, indeed.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

I am wasting several hours to find document from UN and international sources to support my opinion so the others can trust them, and you seems find it easy to ‘’give’’ negative answers for my posts. Please support your views by acceptable references for both sides. No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ). Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources. Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.

- You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

• I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite.. How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely? Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

• After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion. We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

 

[Bilal]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realized Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself..

 

[Bilal]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.
I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realized there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.
Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.

Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.

 

[Bilal]

I do believe in peace and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.

The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:

- One democratic State with equal rights for all people ... Everyone free in his religion.

- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions...

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone.. Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.

Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …

Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.

 

[russ_watters]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you...

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Yonoz]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

Dear Bilal,
Thankyou for welcoming me to this forum. Are you a moderator? I gather not. I believe my way of discussion is valid. If you would like to comment on my way of discussion, you may PM me as it is a personal matter and there is no need to put on a display for other forum members. If I am in breach of any rule of conduct you may direct me to the appropriate documentation and/or report my post to a moderator. I will not be dragged into personal confrontations in an open forum.

No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).

MEMRI is the only site that translates such an extent of Arab media. If you can come up with an agreeable alternative I will be more than happy to use it. Your personal opinions of MEMRI are your own, if you would like to question the validity of MEMRI please back that up with reliable evidence. As I stated in a previous post, I find it to be very informative as it covers all aspects of Arab media, including evidence of reform.

Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources.

You are exaggerating again. Surely I could not have posted thousands of links. Most of my links are to Wikipedia. Furthermore, your use of the words "Jewish" and "Zionist" implies that such sources can not be trusted - I find that insulting. No one here has ever even insinuated the same for Palestinian sources, even though I find their validity extremely questionable.

Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

And you sir are a fine example. Look at your views of Judaism and Zionism:

Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.

I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite..

How can I possibly prove the opposite when you do not give any details? Like I said, it's up to the individual to judge how trustworthy your accounts here. I did not even include my personal opinion on the integrity of that story.

How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely?

After the Oslo Accords the PA had full control over what was in the textbooks. This reminds me - you claimed they had Israel on the maps - I claim they showed the entire area as Palestine, with no mention of Israel.

Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

As I said, Israel did more for the Palestinians than all Arab nations combined.

After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

Israel had no control over the contents of the textbooks, even if it was made available to it officially.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

How did I ignore it exactly? I responded by giving a list of several articles that say the opposite. In contrast, you did not answer my first question about the picture of an Israeli father and son who you claimed was learning to kill Palestinians, nor have you answered my question on top of what list was Shamir present, nor have you responded to my request that you support the your slanderous claim "most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people", should I continue?

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion.

As you can see, my way of discussion is very methodic - I quote a relevant part of your post, and include my reply directly below it, so that it doesn't scatter.

We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

Are you really here to understand me? I think not.

 

[Bilal]

- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers.. without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine. I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.

- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands... Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.

Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ... it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders. Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?