Iranian Elections: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Wins by Landslide

[rootX]

Iran is just another third world country,still developing. It is not a democracy of the western style, the histories are different. But the government is not a dictatorship, it is been setup by the people, although there is a large (30%) strong opposition made up of right wing nationalists and monarchists (secularists). Running countries affairs can be ugly in times of crisis, especially with perceived external threats. McCarthyism for example.

Does a country need be developed for having a good (not perfect) democracy?
How about India?

 

[Cyrus]

Iran is just another third world country,still developing. It is not a democracy of the western style, the histories are different. But the government is not a dictatorship, it is been setup by the people, although there is a large (30%) strong opposition made up of right wing nationalists and monarchists (secularists). Running countries affairs can be ugly in times of crisis, especially with perceived external threats. McCarthyism for example.

Ha,Ha,HA. Did you forget your history that fast? Iran most certainly wasn't a third world country in the late 70s. It was like Paris. You all did a great job bringing down Iran to 3rd world status.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ha,Ha,HA. Did you forget your history that fast? Iran most certainly wasn't a third world country in the late 70s. It was like Paris. You all did a great job bringing down Iran to 3rd world status.

More importantly, the Iranian people are just as sophisticated as the people in any advanced nation.

 

[Cyrus]

More importantly, the Iranian people are just as sophisticated as the people in any advanced nation.

I don't know any actual Iranians living in Iran to say yes to that. All the one's I've met here that have come over recently have been pretty level headed. Though, reading the stuff the government does over there, one has to wonder sometimes. The government isn't the people, but I question how much to the people actually speak out about what the government does or if they quietly support it. For example, hanging Jews and homosexuals.

 

[LowlyPion]

Iran is not a second world country. They are not aligned with either of the two super powers. (I'd think in fact the Soviet Union only barely hangs onto Second World status at times.) Iran is hardly a satellite of the Soviet Union in any event.

A third world country most definitely, and apparently a third tier power too.

For more useful information about what Third World Countries are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_world
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

None of that says anything about how sophisticated the people are, and I'd say shouldn't be interpreted that way.

 

[kyleb]

Ha,Ha,HA. Did you forget your history that fast? Iran most certainly wasn't a third world country in the late 70s. It was like Paris. You all did a great job bringing down Iran to 3rd world status.

Iran was a tinpot dictatorship in the late 70's, since the US backed coup in '53. Considering that history, I'm rather still weighing the evidence as to what has gone on here.

For example, hanging Jews...

It seems you are confused, there are tens of thousands of Jews in Iran.

 

[Cyrus]

Iran was a tinpot dictatorship in the late 70's, since the US backed coup in '53. Considering that history, I'm rather still weighing the evidence as to what has gone on here.

What's that got to do with what I said? The living conditions in Iran weren't nearly as bad as they are today.

It seems you are confused, there are tens of thousands of Jews in Iran.

And? Do you think they are well liked?

 

[qsa]

India itself is in a mess. Gujarat riots thousand of death (ethnic), cashmere civil war, Assam independence war, Maoists, Hyderabad riots (hundreds died ) , independent area lords, criminals of all sorts, underdeveloped country with a hardly decent district, all kinds of ethnic tensions simmering and boiling, corruption to the bone, just to name a few problems. Not to mention appalling poverty with nobody there to care. Some hotels are good though, for tourists that is. I have been there twice and I’ve seen enough. Nevertheless, their democracy is better than nothing, it is all relative. Again.
As for the issue of sophistications. People are of different levels in all countries; education, wealth ..Etc.

“Hanging Jews and homosexuals”. Have a heart. In Iran transsexual operations are legal.

Iran was like Paris for the few rich! It still is by the way.

 

[Cyrus]

India itself is in a mess. Gujarat riots thousand of death (ethnic), cashmere civil war, Assam independence war, Maoists, Hyderabad riots (hundreds died ) , independent area lords, criminals of all sorts, underdeveloped country with a hardly decent district, all kinds of ethnic tensions simmering and boiling, corruption to the bone, just to name a few problems. Not to mention appalling poverty with nobody there to care. Some hotels are good though, for tourists that is. I have been there twice and I’ve seen enough. Nevertheless, their democracy is better than nothing, it is all relative. Again.
As for the issue of sophistications. People are of different levels in all countries; education, wealth ..Etc.

“Hanging Jews and homosexuals”. Have a heart. In Iran transsexual operations are legal.

Iran was like Paris for the few rich! It still is by the way.

hahahaha! That's new to me. It's funny how places with strict rules (usually religions) have so many internal inconsistencies.

Iran, hates Jews but has Jews.
Hates gays, but has sex operations. BTW: Is satellite TV still illegal down there? I remember you used to get lashes for having one. If you're going to watch illegal satellite tv, please do NOT watch David Hasselhoff.

 

[mheslep]

“Hanging Jews and homosexuals”. Have a heart. In Iran transsexual operations are legal.

Why? There's no need, because

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country,"

- Ahmadinejad 9/2007
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hATGOzv6YSmgeMY1zdYbdpyrG2cw

 

[Cyrus]

Why? There's no need, because
- Ahmadinejad 9/2007
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hATGOzv6YSmgeMY1zdYbdpyrG2cw

Hhahaha, that goes back to my post before yours about internal inconsistencies. Anyways, I don't want to stray off topic for the OP.

 

[kyleb]

What's that got to do with what I said?

The first part was in response to your comparison to Paris, the second to your mention of history, and the third a comment on the discussion in general.

The living conditions in Iran weren't nearly as bad as they are today.

Could you please elaborate here?

And? Do you think they are well liked?

Israel's conquest of Palestine has made them the unfortunate victims of guilt by association to many in the region, but I haven't seen anything to back your claim of Jews being hanged.

 

[math_04]

Iran, hates Jews but has Jews.

Get your facts right, Iran has a fair amount of Jews. The president may be anti semitic but most of the leadership in Iran view Jews as Iranians. In fact, Iran has the largest Jewish population in the region apart from Israel.

All Ahmadinejad has done is isolate Iran internationally and attempt to invent himself as a pious, humble individual in order to gain votes from the poor, disadvantaged citizens and gain the support of the clerics.

Ha,Ha,HA. Did you forget your history that fast? Iran most certainly wasn't a third world country in the late 70s. It was like Paris. You all did a great job bringing down Iran to 3rd world status.

Iran in the 1970s, had a wide gap between the rich and poor. There was a large part of the population that was living in near poverty while the Shah and his associates built up their wealth and used it on grand but unnecessary projects. Opposition to his regime was not allowed and SAVAK (his secret police), cracked down brutally on any dissent. So I fail to see the analogy with Paris unless you lived in a rich part of Tehran.

The problem with Iran is it has experienced two extremes, a religious and secular extreme. Hopefully there can be a middle ground that can be decided upon.

 

[Cyrus]

Could you please elaborate here?

Source: Every Iranian I know that emigrated here in the early 80s, including my father.

Israel's conquest of Palestine has made them the unfortunate victims of guilt by association to many in the region, but I haven't seen anything to back your claim of Jews being hanged.

I mixed up the Jews with the Homosexuals. My fault. It's homosexuals that are hung. (Hahah, I just realized that's a horrible pun by mistake!)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's homosexuals that are hung.

 

[Cyrus]

Get your facts right, Iran has a fair amount of Jews. The president may be anti semitic but most of the leadership in Iran view Jews as Iranians. In fact, Iran has the largest Jewish population in the region apart from Israel.

Did I say Iran doesn't have Jews?

Iran in the 1970s, had a wide gap between the rich and poor. There was a large part of the population that was living in near poverty while the Shah and his associates built up their wealth and used it on grand but unnecessary projects. Opposition to his regime was not allowed and SAVAK (his secret police), cracked down brutally on any dissent. So I fail to see the analogy with Paris unless you lived in a rich part of Tehran.

That is all correct. However, they were also allies with the United States.

The problem with Iran is it has experienced two extremes, a religious and secular extreme. Hopefully there can be a middle ground that can be decided upon.

I'm not aware of a secular extreme there. Secular in what regard?

 

[qsa]

""The problem with Iran is it has experienced two extremes, a religious and secular extreme. Hopefully there can be a middle ground that can be decided upon. ""

this I agree with 100%, for all the moslem countries.

 

[math_04]

Secular extreme in regards to the Shah's crackdown on religious activity in parts of Iran. The Shah attempted to Westernize Iran which was a grave mistake. Iran has its own culture, identity and religion which have served well for thousands of years.His father was the same, brutally cracking down and forcing the people to accept secular values. While I am for secularism, I still believe that you cannot force people to abandon their religious beliefs and that which is deeply entrenched in their culture

 

[LowlyPion]

I found this video stunning insofar as how quiet so many people could be. This was apparently from Wednesday. I see reports of vandalism being caused by the basiji plain clothes forces, so the government can apparently condemn the protesters and attack them. This would certainly be no way to win the people over and lessen the tension. Discouraging to be sure, but for the demonstrations to be continuing, at this scale, in the face of such seemingly purposeful widespread communication outages, ... The genie looks to be out of the bottle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLo_6Qp1eTk

The NYT shows the same demonstration:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/world/middleeast/18iran.html

 

[LowlyPion]

Even the soccer players protest.

Iranian soccer players wear green armbands

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=ap-skorea-iranprotest&prov=ap

 

[Cyrus]

I found this video stunning insofar as how quiet so many people could be. This was apparently from Wednesday. I see reports of vandalism being caused by the basiji plain clothes forces, so the government can apparently condemn the protesters and attack them. This would certainly be no way to win the people over and lessen the tension. Discouraging to be sure, but for the demonstrations to be continuing, at this scale, in the face of such seemingly purposeful widespread communication outages, ... The genie looks to be out of the bottle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLo_6Qp1eTk

The NYT shows the same demonstration:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/world/middleeast/18iran.html

No kidding, considering what loudmouths we can be. HAHahaha.

The problem is that Ahmedinijad has equally large gatherings just across the street.

 

[LowlyPion]

The problem is that Ahmedinijad has equally large gatherings just across the street.

I don't think so after the first demonstration for Ahmadi-Nejad. There was another much smaller one yesterday, but these demonstrations in protest look to be widespread and much larger. BBC World News has been pretty good about calling it both ways.

 

[MATLABdude]

I don't think so after the first demonstration for Ahmadi-Nejad. There was another much smaller one yesterday, but these demonstrations in protest look to be widespread and much larger. BBC World News has been pretty good about calling it both ways.

This has been making the rounds... Someone with a keen eye noticed something about one of those pro-Ahmadinejad rallies:
http://boingboing.net/2009/06/17/ahmadinijad-sucks-at.html

Unverified reports (via Twitter) indicate that government employees and local people have been 'encouraged' to show up at the rallies by the Bassij.

 

[LowlyPion]

This has been making the rounds... Someone with a keen eye noticed something about one of those pro-Ahmadinejad rallies:
http://boingboing.net/2009/06/17/ahmadinijad-sucks-at.html

Unverified reports (via Twitter) indicate that government employees and local people have been 'encouraged' to show up at the rallies by the Bassij.

This wouldn't be the first Photoshopped image out of Iran. I recall their 4 or 5 rocket launch that amazingly managed identical contrail exhausts.

Today it seems the theme is black. Black for mourning those killed by the basiji. If people weren't dying, these ham-handed basiji, would be a joke for their clumsy ineptness in resorting to violence, intimidation and deception to control the population.

 

[kyleb]

I recall their 4 or 5 rocket launch that amazingly managed identical contrail exhausts.

It was four rockets with one being chopped into cover for projectile dysfunction:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/jul/10/iranianmissiletestsnotwhat

But hey, it's not like they have Hollywood to do moon landings for them.


(just kidding!)

 

[LowlyPion]

From the looks of things, Iran is in a bit of a pickle. Both sides are at a stand-off. The Opposition is not escalating any violence, but neither are they backing down. The government has exposed themselves with this ill-conceived, inept vote reporting. They can't admit they were wrong in the counts, or they are admitting they are frauds and not fit to rule, whatever the vote count. They can't escalate the violence overtly, or there will surely be the Devil to pay. Instead, they nibble at the edges, discouraging, heckling, provoking, threatening ... but the lessons of Gandhi and India are clear. The Government cannot remain against the will of the people forever. Making martyrs will serve the Government no good at all.

I guess the question is who will blink first.

 

[LowlyPion]

The BBC is currently reporting that arrests have escalated. That there are now hundreds arrested. As many as 800. Reform activists.

Also Iranian state sponsored hackers are apparently trying to hack the blogosphere to stifle dissent - closing access to sites, etc. But their efforts are difficult because there are so many pores that news leaks through. They can't shut down the Internet because, the country and the Government itself relies on it to function.

 

[mheslep]

The BBC is currently reporting that arrests have escalated. That there are now hundreds arrested. As many as 800. Reform activists.

...

That would be inline w/ the techniques of the Chinese security people they use: don't bust heads initially, take a lot a photographs and identify leadership; later, single them out and arrest them, disappear them.

 

[LowlyPion]

Two children of former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a political opponent of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have been barred from leaving Iran, the semi-official Fars News Agency said on Thursday.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090618/tpl-uk-iran-election-rafsanjani-sb-43a8d4f_2.html

Now comes this rubbish claim by Iran:

Iran says thwarted election day bomb plot

... It said this plot was uncovered on election day.

State television said members of the plot had planned to place bombs in polling stations in 20 districts of Tehran.

It aired statements by four people with pixellated faces.

One of them said: "We had contacts with the Americans in Iraq and they wanted to have information from inside Iran about the situation. They gave us formula to build bombs."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090618/tpl-uk-iran-election-plot-sb-43a8d4f_3.html

Dick Cheney hasn't left the country in months.

 

[qsa]

The BBC is currently reporting that arrests have escalated. That there are now hundreds arrested. As many as 800. Reform activists.

Also Iranian state sponsored hackers are apparently trying to hack the blogosphere to stifle dissent - closing access to sites, etc. But their efforts are difficult because there are so many pores that news leaks through. They can't shut down the Internet because, the country and the Government itself relies on it to function.

If you are not familiar with Iranian politics, here is a take. Ironically, the government system is based on the US one. Both are presidency and both have two large parties. These parties are just like the US the Reformers (Republicans) cater for the rich, business (bazaar in case of Iran), affluent... etc. But in case of Iran the more liberal mined (opposite of US) have aligned themselves with Reformers although they do not strictly agree with the system. This is the Reformers sell to the system in exchange for privileges (very similar to US except Republicans sell “DEFENCE” to the system). On the other hand, Fundamentalists backed by the majority poor, lower class, rural…etc. sell “DEFENCE” to the system in exchange for more government care and power. The competition is intense but both belong to the system, just like the US. But it may take some modification to make it work more smoothly.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Haha, I heard on CNN that hackers are infiltrating the systems that are intended to block or limit internet access.

 

[Pupil]

Haha, I heard on CNN that hackers are infiltrating the systems that are intended to block or limit internet access.

I hope hackers infiltrate every single one. I can hardly think of a more grotesque way for a government to censor its people than to try to stop worldwide communications such at the internet. It really angers me that their government knows it did something wrong, and is so scared that it attempts to mute them to the rest of the world.

 

[LowlyPion]

It really angers me that their government knows it did something wrong, and is so scared that it attempts to mute them to the rest of the world.

There is a practical reason to interrupt their internal access. It's to cut down on the organization of more demonstrations and dissent.

But when you have 100,000 people a day demonstrating, word gets out without any internet needed I'd guess.

As far as the government goes, I'm thinking there are no good outcomes available. Short term "winning" will only fester into further real resentment. Without moral authority, I don't see how they can hope to maintain a state theocracy.

 

[LowlyPion]

Apparently Khomeini has taken a hard line.

TEHRAN, Iran -- Iran's supreme leader said Friday there was "definitive victory" and no rigging in disputed presidential elections, offering no concession to protesters demanding the vote be canceled and held again.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in a rare speech at Friday prayers at Tehran University, said the election dispute was nothing more than a family disagreement within the frame of the Islamic Republic. He added that the legitimacy of the regime was never at question and all candidates had a shinning track record of serving the Islamic Republic.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124540205628930963.html

Apparently there is no middle road between a rock and a hard place. Our prayers should be with those that will surely face greater violence going forward.

 

[turbo]

Apparently Khomeini has taken a hard line.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124540205628930963.html

Apparently there is no middle road between a rock and a hard place. Our prayers should be with those that will surely face greater violence going forward.

Notice that he offered only limited reviews of the polling, and then called the election a "definitive victory" without allowing the reviews to be conducted. He's stuck, but unless he is removed from power, he has the authority to approve the election results.