Is Florida's Stand Your Ground Law a Dangerous Step Backward?

[Astronuc]

What happens if an innocent person is killed? In other words, let's say someone walks into a parking lot and just happens approach another person, because the cars are near or perhaps next to one another, and suppose the second person simply panics (based on a prior mugging at the same location).

Something like this may have happened. I only remember it anecdotally after some women apparently shot a man whom she thought was coming at her. I don't remember if he was killed or not.

Certainly a person has a right to defend him or herself, but as Patty asked how do you prove that an unarmed person was going to be a threat - without witnesses? And what if the witness is mistaken?

Unless properly worded, the Florida law allows for negligent homicide, with the only defense being "I thought he/she was attacking me?" "I didn't know he was unarmed" or "I didn't know he was an off-duty police officer".

It would certainly make me rethink helping someone who was calling for help because they were assaulted or robbed!

One cannot bring back to life a dead person, no matter how innocent the deceased or how unintentional the killing.

 

[Anttech]

Why not just ban Guns outright---

Ohh wait that's against the 1st amemnent, American's right to walk up to people and shoot them, if they look at them wrong then pay top noch lawers to get them out of jail scot free... And Pengwuino thinks Candains are cute.. haha

 

[pattylou]

Isn't it a matter of degree?

I assume possession of knives isn't illegal in Europe. They're not illegal here either.

I assume possession of deadly explosives is illegal in both our countries/continents.

The people I know who own guns are people who like to hunt. Some of them hunt to bring in their own meat (deer hunting, ex) This helps keep deer populations down, helps keep lyme disease from exploding, helps keep damage from deer eating osaplings and so on down, etc. And it is good to be able to get your own food - reduce demand for cattle lots, reduce fuel use during transportation----

Are bows and arrows legal in europe? How is hunting conducted in Europe? I know there is fox hunting in England - how are the animals killed?

This law is crazy, but I can't see clearly that banning guns altogether is necessarily where we draw the line. I'm not saying it isn't, it's just my personal experience is that guns are generally owned by responsible people who like to hunt.

I don't know any gang members, or any murderers. Maybe they outnumber hunters, but I doubt it, and I don't know if the numbers are relevant to the discussion.

 

[Anttech]

I assume possession of knives isn't illegal in Europe. They're not illegal here either.

Sure, you are allowed a knife, but you arent allowed to walk around town with a Knife, or a concield weapon, like in some States in America.

The people I know who own guns are people who like to hunt. Some of them hunt to bring in their own meat (deer hunting, ex)

If this is the case then this law is a fallacy. People own guns in America to protect themselfs from other Gun owners... Making it MORE difficult legally to own a weapon would make far more sence.

I went to LA before Sept 11, and my Brother took me to a "Gun shop" The guy behind the counter tried to sell me a High velocity rifle that had no metal what's ever, it broke down into little bits and could be stored away... Why on Earth would anybody need something like this?

Are bows and arrows legal in europe? How is hunting conducted in Europe? I know there is fox hunting in England - how are the animals killed?

Yes with a gun, true... But owning a Gun legally in the UK (where I was brought up) is very difficult. You certainly would not be allow to have a automatic weapon, or a hand pistol without very very good reason...

Isn't it a matter of degree?

Yes maybe it is... But I fail to understand why you don't just become very tough on Guns in the US (Bar the very powerful Gun Lobby groups) Your right to bear arms is a totally outdated 'right', unless you really believe that there is a need to rise against the goverment, a "democratically" elected goverment?

Now it seems you also have the right to kill someone for looking like they may do something to you, madness

 

[Smurf]

Why not just ban Guns outright---

Ohh wait that's against the 1st amemnent, American's right to walk up to people and shoot them, if they look at them wrong then pay top noch lawers to get them out of jail scot free... And Pengwuino thinks Candains are cute.. haha

I don't think anyone wants to ban guns outright. I would only advocate the banning of certain guns with no usefull purpose except to threaten humans, such as the ones Attench mentioned - and carrying a concealed weapon should always be illegal.

 

[Smurf]

I assume possession of deadly explosives is illegal in both our countries/continents.

Kind of a shakey assumption. It's easy to get explosives, what you can't get is something that can explode and not much else. You need to do a lot of paperwork to get a stick of dynamite for example - but some bombs can be made from products at any convenience store.

 

[Townsend]

Pengwuino, is Fresno really that bad? My God. It sounds worse even than LA.

LA is a big city...I could point you to parts of town where you wouldn't last more than 5 minutes before being beaten, robbed and rapped if not killed just because of who you are. That is a FACT and no one seems to be thinking about it.

Fresno is not as bad as LA but it is much worse than you seem to think. The streets of America are NOT in general safe.

Let me ask you something pattylou...what if you saw your daughter being gang rapped and you had a gun. What would you do? Hold them at gun point and call the police? You and your daughter would be dead. Criminals would rather be killed then go back to jail so if it comes down to it the only real choice is whether to kill or be killed. I don't have a link or any proof of that claim so you can disagree with me but from what I have seen it is often very true.

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

 

[Smurf]

If someone is stealing your stuff, and you are armed, you can yell at the kid to get the hell out, or you can call the cops(heh). If you yell at the kid with your gun drawn and yell at them to not move or you shoot, then they will either spring away or sit still.

You don't even need to draw your gun. Any sensible thief will spring away as soon as he knows he's been sighted.

haha, you WISH the cops could ever find your stuff or catch the guy using a license plate. They never use their own vehicles. You shoot people to protect yourself. No criminal has your best intentions in mind.

If your law enforcement is incompetent you should make it better - not switch to vigilante justice. You're just shifting the problem to another area.

 

[Townsend]

If this is the case then this law is a fallacy. People own guns in America to protect themselfs from other Gun owners... Making it MORE difficult legally to own a weapon would make far more sence.

Nearly every house in South Dakota has a gun in it...I have a concealed weapons permit and so do thousand of other South Dakotan's. Yet the streets of South Dakota are very safe. My town is probably one of the safest places in America for that matter...

I'll look it up later on to be sure but anyone who wants to is of course welcome to do so as well...

 

[Smurf]

Nearly every house in South Dakota has a gun in it...I have a concealed weapons permit and so do thousand of other South Dakotan's. Yet the streets of South Dakota are very safe. My town is probably one of the safest places in America for that matter...

I'll look it up later on to be sure but anyone who wants to is of course welcome to do so as well...

And yet other places have equally available weapons and have huge crime rates. I think this just goes to show that crime is not dependant on gun laws. (although it's probably minorly related in many instances).

 

[Townsend]

You don't even need to draw your gun. Any sensible thief will spring away as soon as he knows he's been sighted.

You're on crack...sensible thief is pretty much an oxymoron. When I lived in LA an acquaintance my mine was murdered because we walked up to a guy breaking into his car. He was a small guy and very innocent looking...couldn't scare a mouse.

If your law enforcement is incompetent you should make it better - not switch to vigilante justice. You're just shifting the problem to another area.

What are you suggesting here?

 

[Anttech]

And yet other places have equally available weapons and have huge crime rates. I think this just goes to show that crime is not dependant on gun laws. (although it's probably minorly related in many instances).

Sure I am not saying it is... But why give man the tools to do evil upon others so readily?

I have a concealed weapons permit

Why? for what reaon do you need to carry a concealed weapon then?

 

[Smurf]

You're on crack...sensible thief is pretty much an oxymoron.

No it's not, don't be daft.

When I lived in LA an acquaintance my mine was murdered because we walked up to a guy breaking into his car. He was a small guy and very innocent looking...couldn't scare a mouse.

Did he get arrested? Too bad he wasn't in Florida he could've claimed self defence and gotten away with it because your aquantance was sneaking up on him.

What are you suggesting here?

I don't know, I'm not familiar with the American situation. But from the sounds of this thread none of you yanks have any faith in your police force. Suggest a few reformations perhapse?

 

[Smurf]

Why? for what reaon do you need to carry a concealed weapon then?

To protect them from the evil criminals in South Dakota of course. It's more fun if you surprise them.

 

[Townsend]

Why? for what reaon do you need to carry a concealed weapon then?

I don't carry a concealed weapon...but if I wanted to I could. The reason I have one is so that I can buy a pistol without having to wait as long. When you get the permit they do a full background check on you so don't have to have one done each and every time you want to buy a gun.

Beyond that, having a concealed weapons permit is pretty much pointless; at least for me it is.

 

[Anttech]

In the UK they have a higher crime rate / person than in USA, but the UK's Gun crime and deadly crime ratio is nothing compared to yours. The reason is simply becuase of your gun culture, and lack of respect towards Guns

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap

 

[Smurf]

In the UK they have a higher crime rate / person than in USA, but the UK's Gun crime and deadly crime ratio is nothing compared to yours. The reason is simply becuase of your gun culture, and lack of respect towards Guns

...and life.

 

[Townsend]

Did he get arrested?

I have no idea... they did find the car later on though. It was burnt to a crisp...

Too bad he wasn't in Florida he could've claimed self defence and gotten away with it because your aquantance was sneaking up on him.

I don't think that's the way this law works...

I don't know, I'm not familiar with the American situation. But from the sounds of this thread none of you yanks have any faith in your police force. Suggest a few reformations perhapse?

It's too bad really because there are some very good cops out there that do damn good job. I just don't know what kind of reformations would really fix the problem...

 

[Townsend]

In the UK they have a higher crime rate / person than in USA, but the UK's Gun crime and deadly crime ratio is nothing compared to yours. The reason is simply becuase of your gun culture, and lack of respect towards Guns

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap

Notice the bolded words...you don't know that for sure. I think it has more to do with the drug problem than anything else and I believe banning guns would do almost nothing to improve the situation.

 

[Anttech]

...and life.

seems that way, too bad.. The Gun culture in the USA is so engrained into everyone, there would be no hope of reverse the trend anyway ..

 

[Anttech]

you don't know that for sure. I think it has more to do with the drug problem than anything else and I believe banning guns would do almost nothing to improve the situatio

Do you know what The Netherlands 2nd largest export is?...

XTC! Disco Biscuits, E's Whatever you want to call it

The Drug consuption in the UK and Europe is on par (per person), if not beyond the USA... But still your gun crimes are way higher in the USA

Over 2 Million people every weekend in the UK go to Raves and take cocktails of Illegal drugs..

Ever seen Trainspotting? Scotland has one of the worst Herion problems in the western world.. Yet they have a low murder rate

Edit: actually its 2 million Tabs of E that are sold every weekend.. Perhaps 1 person takes them all ;-)

 

[Townsend]

seems that way, too bad.. The Gun culture in the USA is so engrained into everyone, there would be no hope of reverse the trend anyway ..

I grew up with guns...taking away my guns would like asking you to give up your tea...

I know what you're going to say, "But tea doesn't kill people"...save it cause I already know. The point is, none of MY guns ever killed anyone and NEVER will...my guns are for all intents and purposes as safe as your tea is. (I am taking the liberty of assuming you love tea)

Taking away guns might or might not saves lives...but just because banning something might save a few lifes a year does not mean it should be banned. If all we cared about was saving as many lives as possible then there are much better places to start banning things then guns...

anyhow...happy shooting...

 

[Townsend]

Do you know what The Netherlands 2nd largest export is?...

XTC! Disco Biscuits, E's Whatever you want to call it

The Drug consuption in the UK and Europe is on par (per person), if not beyond the USA... But still your gun crimes are way higher in the USA

Over 2 Million people every weekend in the UK go to Raves and take cocktails of Illegal drugs..

Ever seen Trainspotting? Scotland has one of the worst Herion problems in the western world.. Yet they have a low murder rate

Right well I don't mean drugs by themselves but the entire drug industry within America. I mean the organized crime, the gangs and what have you...

I'm not really talking about just the end users here but also the suppliers...I don't think the UK has massive gangs and the same level of organized crime as the US does. So as not to stick my foot in my mouth I should say this is pure speculation on my part.

 

[pattylou]

Let me ask you something pattylou...what if you saw your daughter being gang rapped and you had a gun. What would you do? Hold them at gun point and call the police? You and your daughter would be dead. Criminals would rather be killed then go back to jail so if it comes down to it the only real choice is whether to kill or be killed. I don't have a link or any proof of that claim so you can disagree with me but from what I have seen it is often very true.

No Townsend, I would *not* kill them. I would fight for my daughter's life and die trying before I would kill them. I know a thing or two about watching my children suffer, having buried one. One thing I know is that I can be driven to murderous rage, and that the aggressor is therefore no worse than myself.

 

[Anttech]

I grew up with guns...taking away my guns would like asking you to give up your tea...

this is my point... Gun Culture is so engrained into the American way of life that you will never be able to ban them, and remove them from your society its a shame becuase it will save way more lifes that:

few lifes a year

Anyway if this isn't going to happen, the laws that govern there use should be very strict not getting laxer and laxer

 

[pattylou]

You don't even need to draw your gun. Any sensible thief will spring away as soon as he knows he's been sighted.

Our house alarm recently went off. The man who was trying to get into the garage, left immediately. He spun off in his car, and I seriously doubt that this car belonged to someone else.

We didn't have to kill this guy, and he hasn't been back, he knows we have a house alarm that will wake the entire neighborhood.

This law is just stupid. Let's transform our society inot something even more violent than it already is. *That'll* teach those thieves! </sarcasm>

 

[pattylou]

LA is a big city...I could point you to parts of town where you wouldn't last more than 5 minutes before being beaten, robbed and rapped if not killed just because of who you are. That is a FACT and no one seems to be thinking about it.

Yes, please do. Please cite the specific neighborhoods. I'd like to get some statistics, rather than one conservative individual's opinion.

References would be nice too, but I'll dig those up if you provide the locations.

If you *can't* identify specific parts of LA where people are beaten up within 5 minutes, then I'll assume you were shooting you mouth off for no productive reason, just to incite anger.

So? Where would I be beaten up within 5 minutes, raped and so on, because I am a white woman?

 

[Anttech]

Right well I don't mean drugs by themselves but the entire drug industry within America. I mean the organized crime, the gangs and what have you...

I'm not really talking about just the end users here but also the suppliers...I don't think the UK has massive gangs and the same level of organized crime as the US does

Who do you think makes all that XTC? Europe has just as much organised crime as the US, its just our movie business is smaller so it hasnt been as highlighted as in the US.

London has many Jamican Gangs, Russian Mafia, Croatian, Romainian Gangs even Tri-ads ... We have it all...

The reason again why we have more crime but less deadly crime is becuase our "Culture" has way more respect for Guns, and it seems life... If someone here desides to be a "Bad Boy" he doesn't need a Gun typcialy becuase he knows that the person he is going to rob won't have one either... It is the opposite in the States

http://www.mcrkba.org/Letters/38.html

London gangs' £25bn profits

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/life_of_crime/crime.stm

52 murders (33 in London) in 1999 were thought to be linked to organised crime

 

[Townsend]

Yes, please do. Please cite the specific neighborhoods. I'd like to get some statistics, rather than one conservative individual's opinion.

I'm Libertarian...geez... then nerve of some people...

References would be nice too, but I'll dig those up if you provide the locations.

How about videos of it the things that happen...would that be enough? I have seen some very graphic ones so if your interested Ill post those.

If you *can't* identify specific parts of LA where people are beaten up within 5 minutes, then I'll assume you were shooting you mouth off for no productive reason, just to incite anger.

Pacoima, certain street in compton, Pomona...I'll think of more later on.

Here is an quick link to get you started.http://lang.dailynews.com/socal/gangs/articles/dnp3_gang3.asp

So? Where would I be beaten up within 5 minutes, raped and so on, because I am a white woman?

I never said it was because you were a white woman. I said it was because of who you are...you could be a white woman and safe but you could not be you and be safe.
(and of course 5 minutes was obviously an embellishment)

 

[Anttech]

Pacoima, certain street in compton, Pomona...I'll think of more later on.

Here is an quick link to get you started.http://lang.dailynews.com/socal/gan.../dnp3_gang3.asp

And you still don't think there is a coralation between your total lack of respect for Guns and Gun crime...

 

[hitssquad]

Crime and the g factor of human mental ability

sensible thief is pretty much an oxymoron.

No it's not

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/robbery_types.html

"It is [...] a serious misconception that ALL criminals are stupid.
[...]
You [...] know who is NOT going to rob you. Older, smarter, slicker, hard working criminals, who know that the rewards are not worth the risk, generally aren't the ones doing robberies.

And that leaves you facing the dregs of the criminal world.
[...]
Most often robbers are the youngest, stupidist, laziest of all criminals. These individuals are the most pathological, sociopathic and dysfunctional morons of the criminal world and they are the most violent. These are the guys who are so stupid and lazy that they only pry themselves up 'to work' to engage in the least well paying, most violent and most risky of crimes."

 

[McGyver]

CA Gov. Schwarzng's Handling of Violence in Movie "Twins"

There are many ways to view this new legislation. It is often very difficult while out in public to discern HOW and WHAT one might define as a perceived THREAT to life and health, and, what OPTIONS for response and recourse might be available to the victim. Age, physical strength, mental alertness and quickness, and any training in engagement all will play a major role in the victim's ableness to respond, and the CHOICES he/she might choose. I'm sure I agree with "blanket legislation" such as this - because it will likely lead to some potential victims resorting to the last form of defense, deadly force, rather than exhausing other less extreme options. In my experience, if at all possible, it is better to talk rather than fight. A few wise words at the right moment can diffuse a potentially tragic incident.

Yet, I have no doubt there are occassions out in public that access to deadly force would be proper. However, those that use it will required to demonstrate substantial proof in a police investigation, and even if they successfully meet this burden, they could later be found "at fault" for monetary damages in a civil trial. Be aware!

I can't help but think how now CA-Governor Arnold used negitiations, superior logic and alertness, and eventually his size and training to defeat assailants in the movie, "Twins."

Well, perhaps a best case scenario! It was a movie.

 

[pattylou]

I'm Libertarian...geez... then nerve of some people...

Sorry...

How about videos of it the things that happen...would that be enough? I have seen some very graphic ones so if your interested Ill post those.

No, that wouldn't address the issue at all. I am pretty sure people don't keep video of the hours and hours and hours of nonviolence that occurs in these more dangerous neighborhoods. The gist of your post was that you walk into a part of town and BOOM you're dead. That's wrong.

Pacoima, certain street in compton, Pomona...I'll think of more later on.

Here is an quick link to get you started.http://lang.dailynews.com/socal/gan.../dnp3_gang3.asp

Thank you. I'll look up some crime and violence statistics.

(and of course 5 minutes was an obviously embellishment)

Thank you for acknowledging that. :)

 

[pattylou]

I have been surprised to see most violent crimes in LA down 50% since 1992. It isn't because the citizens are given permission to shoot "threatening" people; it's because the police force has reorganised their beats and numbers on the street (according to the LAPD.) It would seem we can reduce crime ... without telling citizens to arm themselves!

http://www.lapdonline.org/pdf_files/crime_stats/wkly_stats/2005_crime_summary.pdf

Haven't found the specific staitistics that i was looking for, but I'll keep at it - later.

 

[moose]

Why not just ban Guns outright---

Ohh wait that's against the 1st amemnent, American's right to walk up to people and shoot them, if they look at them wrong then pay top noch lawers to get them out of jail scot free... And Pengwuino thinks Candains are cute.. haha

An armed society is a polite society

Countries which completely ban firearms usually have much higher crime rates...