Is Kate Moss's View on Thinness Controversial? Share Your Opinion!

[DanP]

Let me cheer you up a bit guys

Enter Alenka Bikar, a phenomenal athlete featuring one of the most amazing lower body (IMO) in nowadays track and field:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwHYRU_9G_U&NR=1

 

[Monique]

I've never seen someone who is naturally chubby or skinny. Just look at their diets and lifestyles and you'll see why they are how they are. They may say they can't lose or gain weight, but that's just not true.
Unless of course they're naturally chubby because they naturally can't convince themselves not to eat that cake. But that's probably because they're used to eating that way and it's hard to stop. You can't just eat cake all your life and quit cold turkey, then when you realize you can't, act like it's your genetics that makes you want the cake.
And every skinny person I see who says they can't gain weight, after I see what they eat every day, I know why. If you don't eat more than a handful of food a day, you won't gain weight.

I think many people have addressed it sufficiently, there definitely can be a genetic component. Either the metabolism or the appetite may be affected.

If I look at my family, and specifically to myself and my brother and sister, I'd say there is definitely something in the genes. I didn't grow up with my brother and sister, so that takes away the component of upbringing. We're all the 'ectomorph' type and have always wanted to gain weight. I tried the pizza, BLT burger, french fries diet; the chocolate ice cream diet; the protein-shakes diet. I never dared to join the gym, because you only work out when you want to loose weight. When I found out that you can also join a gym to gain weight, I was still hesitant because I didn't want a bodybuilder body

Anyway, I've always found it very annoying that people think they can dictate how you should look. A bell curve has two tails, not one

 

[Jasongreat]

Tautological to the extreme.

Redundancy does not make my statements less true.

 

[DanP]

When I found out that you can also join a gym to gain weight, I was still hesitant because I didn't want a bodybuilder body

Anyway, I've always found it very annoying that people think they can dictate how you should look. A bell curve has two tails, not one

Monique, this issue that you will end up looking like a female bodybuilder if you go to a gym is largely a myth. With a properly designed resistance training program, tailored to your specific needs and goals, you should be OK.

Hypertrophy effects are mediated through enhanced gene expression in skeletal muscle. But besides the training stimulus, the result is also largely modulated by the hormonal ensemble of the body. Females simply do not possesses enough androgenic steroids to be concerned with massive and fast muscular development. Female competitors in modern pro bodybuilding are all supplementing massively with anabolic steroids.

With *a lot* of dedicate training you may end up having the physique of a fitness or figure model. Although athletic, their physique is a far cry from those of female bodybuilders as size.

Besides, training effects do not last forever. Half-life of the proteins which are up-regulated as a result of training stimulus mainly determine the residual duration of the effects. Upon cessation of stimulus, the gene expression is down regulated, and you start the so called "detraining". For structural, hypertrophyic effects, detraining, and implicitly size decrease starts at about 30 days after training stimulus is stopped. So if you consider you took it too far, it is enough to cut back on the stimulus. The art is in shaping, and working the week points. And no, you don't get fat in this situation you cut back on training, if you carefully supervise your nutritional program and make necessary adjustments. Women doing gyms are "safe". They won't get the legs like professional athletes , that is the result of more than a decade of training using training programs which would "kill" the average gym rat.

Perhaps a good example is Shakira. If you look at her body several years ago , when she came out with "Whenever wherever" hit, and you compare it with the look she has this year, for example in the "She Wolf" video, you will see a startling difference. Smaller ***, much better developed upper body, reshaped legs , a very nice "X" frame. She is still very feminine and doesn't look anything like an athlete, not to mention female bodybuilder.
The key is to know what you (or your trainer / nutritionist ) are doing.

 

[DanP]

Redundancy does not make my statements less true.

Tautological again :P

 

[lisab]

Forget about who said it, but I strongly agree that being healthy feels better that ice cream tastes.

In general, people in the Western world have a lot of health issues caused by lifestyle. Specifically, many of us are unhealthy from overeating or eating foods that offer poor nutrition. Diabetes, heart disease, joint problems due to being overweight, cancer...we all know this list of diseases that affect so many people.

So in the Western world, a good way to avoid these common diseases is to control our weight, and exercise regularly.

In a way, it's an interesting "experiment": what happens to humans when you take away the need to perform daily hard labor, and then give them access to basically any food they want, in any amount they want to eat it?

Answer: many of them basically eat themselves to death.

So...not sure about "being skinny," but definitely good health feels better than whatever-it-is-that-you're-craving tastes.

 

[Evo]

People can be born predisposed to be skeletal and those that will appear heavier set. It has nothing to do with eating or exercise.

My oldest daughter was 21 inches long and weighed 7 pounds at birth. She is nothing but bones and skin. She wears a size 0 and it falls off of her.

My younger daughter was also 21 inches long at birth, but she weighed 9 pounds 6 ounces. She has a large skeletal frame and looks healthier and more robust than her sister. She is thin, but I believe she wears a size 4-6, she's 5'8", her sister is 5'6".

My older daughter has looked frail all of her life, she's too thin, we nicknamed her razor bones because it hurts to hug her, it's like hugging a skeleton. I can only imagine that touching these frail supermodels feels the same.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Give em some pies, that'll put meat on their bones!

 

[Monique]

Monique, this issue that you will end up looking like a female bodybuilder if you go to a gym is largely a myth. With a properly designed resistance training program, tailored to your specific needs and goals, you should be OK.

It is an image that is created in society: you go to aerobics to loose weight and the gym to become a buff muscle-beast and loose weight (fat). When I figured out that resistance training might be a good option I contacted a gym and asked what training program would be good, but hit a closed door.

I did join a gym for some time and combined the exercise with protein shakes. Now I joined a program that has a more personal approach and strengthens muscles in the extended position. It is called Essentrics and I'm very happy with it. I probably should join my boyfriend to the gym tomorrow, I wouldn't mind a body like Shakira

If you are skinny people automatically assume you must be anorexic and have Kate Moss as a role model, that's just not true.

 

[Monique]

My older daughter has looked frail all of her life, she's too thin, we nicknamed her razor bones because it hurts to hug her, it's like hugging a skeleton. I can only imagine that touching these frail supermodels feels the same.

See, this is what I don't understand. Who wants to be called razor bones. What kind of a compliment is it to say someone feels like a skeleton. You wouldn't say to a chubby person that hugging them feels like hugging fatty-blubber? It is really damaging to someone's self-image.

 

[DanP]

... we nicknamed her razor bones because it hurts to hug her, it's like hugging a skeleton. I can only imagine that touching these frail supermodels feels the same.

If I ever score with Kate Moss, Ill report back. Don't hold your breath, though

 

[Evo]

See, this is what I don't understand. Who wants to be called razor bones. What kind of a compliment is it to say someone feels like a skeleton. You wouldn't say to a chubby person that hugging them feels like hugging fatty-blubber? It is really damaging to someone's self-image.

Perhaps it was bad, we actually called her the "razor boned gazelle", and never meant it in a bad way and she never took it in a bad way. I still call her that today and she knows I mean it lovingly, that's what she is. She actually liked the nickname. We were always concerned that she wasn't eating enough to be healthy, but we never tried to make her eat more. I always had served vegetables and she loved my vegetables, also lentils, she ate a healthy assortnment of foods, but never very much.

She did worry me to death when she was a toddler, she would go 1-2 days at a time without eating and the doctor said "when she's hungry, she'll eat".

 

[Sorry!]

She did worry me to death when she was a toddler, she would go 1-2 days at a time without eating and the doctor said "when she's hungry, she'll eat".

My sister was the same way and the doctors said basically the same thing.
This lasted for most of her lifetime so far... she's only recently grown an appetite .
I remember sometimes it would take her close to an hour to eat say a bowl of cereal and she wouldn't have even finished the entire thing.

 

[Evo]

My sister was the same way and the doctors said basically the same thing.
This lasted for most of her lifetime so far... she's only recently grown an appetite .
I remember sometimes it would take her close to an hour to eat say a bowl of cereal and she wouldn't have even finished the entire thing.

Yes, this is normal for some people. I am also a slow eater, and I would forget to eat when I was in my teens, I'd be too busy, I did end up in the hospital suffering from malnutrition, but that certainly is no longer the case.

Callista Flockhart has a different problem, she said she can't taste food, so she's never wanted to eat.

 

[lisab]

My sister was the same way and the doctors said basically the same thing.
This lasted for most of her lifetime so far... she's only recently grown an appetite .
I remember sometimes it would take her close to an hour to eat say a bowl of cereal and she wouldn't have even finished the entire thing.

My daughter has always been like that too. I was concerned about it, until her pediatrician pointed out that she was above 50 percentile for height...yet both her dad and I are very small! The doctor said that the way she recognizes a malnourished children is based more on height than weight, since normal kids can be very skinny.

Regarding nicknames...when she was very young I called her "head on a stick" (since most kids have disproportionately large heads). After puberty, I called her "hips and boobs on a stick".

Did this affect her? Well at age 16, she told me she was very happy with how she looks. Now, how many 16-year-old girls feel so good about themselves? I think it's all about intent. Sure I would tease her a bit, but I also told her she is very beautiful. (But more often, I reminded her how smart she is .)

 

[turbo]

My wife and I have a slightly younger female friend who always looked her best just after she had delivered her kids, and went right back to real skinny soon after. Drinking shakes, eating unhealthy amounts of fried foods, etc never put any weight on her, so eventually, she went the route of getting decent weight-training on a high-protein diet, and ultimately resorted to breast implants to get some curves back. Slender, dark-haired with pale, freckled cheeks and lively eyes - she's the ideal that some women aspire to. She's no bimbo, either. She's the assistant director for the library of a pretty famous deceased GOP senator.

It troubled her that people told her how fantastic she looked a month or so after having given birth, then asked if her health was OK after she dropped back to her "normal" weight a couple of months later. She's a really sweet lady. Her family hired a photographer for her wedding and he did a good job, but the album that I made up of her getting prepared, having fun with her wedding party at the rehearsal, etc, and of the wedding itself has always been her favorite. How many brides do you know that TRIED to gain a few extra pounds to fill out that special gown?

 

[Evo]

I tossed my first wedding pictures, I looked awful. My collar bones were sticking out and my dress just hung there. I weighed 92 pounds. I have no shape. No hips, no rear, no thighs. My first husband asked me once how I managed to keep my pants from falling off since there was nothing to hold them up. I was a shapeless cylinder. But now I'm more weeble shaped.

 

[turbo]

I tossed my first wedding pictures, I looked awful. My collar bones were sticking out and my dress just hung there. I weighed 92 pounds. I have no shape. No hips, no rear, no thighs. My first husband asked me once how I managed to keep my pants from falling off since there was nothing to hold them up. I was a shapeless cylinder. But now I'm more weeble shaped.

Our friend had hips to provide some shape, but apart from that, she was/is slender to a degree that some of her friends and many in her family considered unhealthy, and they made an issue of it. She is fit as can be and as she ages, she actually has gotten a tiny belly (all below the hip-line) and with the enhanced breasts, she has what a lot of people might consider an "ideal" figure. When I was running open-mike jams at a local tavern, she'd often show up to enjoy the music and get away a bit from the family, and she'd be getting hit on by guys 20 years her junior. Think Kate Jackson, only a bit cuter, with freckles. Being considered too skinny can hurt, though I have to feel that being considered too fat can hurt a lot more. I have a younger sister that is heavy, and she has gotten resigned to it, but is bitter. Another sister is zaftig, and happy with herself, and the other is pretty slim and is unhappy as can be. My sisters all dwelled on self-image/peer-image way too much for their health.

 

[DanP]

Our friend had hips to provide some shape, but apart from that, she was/is slender to a degree that some of her friends and many in her family considered unhealthy, and they made an issue of it. She is fit as can be and as she ages, she actually has gotten a tiny belly (all below the hip-line) and with the enhanced breasts, she has what a lot of people might consider an "ideal" figure.

Obviously her looks keeps her happy, and this is the important thing. I don't believe her family has any say in this, and unless they are all MDs they shouldn't go on the "unhealthy" bandwagon.

A good friend of mine, a 40 year old man has 58kg at 1.80m. Imagine that twig with a caveman style haircut, and a full beard. ~10 years ago at his wedding, one of his wife's niece was actually quite disturbed when she seen him for the first time, started to cry and told her mother that she seen Jesus :P

 

[Evo]

A good friend of mine, a 40 year old man has 58kg at 1.80m. Imagine that twig with a caveman style haircut, and a full beard. ~10 years ago at his wedding, one of his wife's niece was actually quite disturbed when she seen him for the first time, started to cry and told her mother that she seen Jesus :P

Ahaha, that's funny.

 

[turbo]

Obviously her looks keeps her happy, and this is the important thing. I don't believe her family has any say in this, and unless they are all MDs they shouldn't go on the "unhealthy" bandwagon.

In this instance, I think that she was working to keep from feeling unhappy, not just to make herself feel happy. It's a distinction that I feel is important. She is slim, slender, etc, but not gaunt, yet people who had known her for most of her life were commenting on how slight she was. She is married to a close friend of mine and it matters to me whether they are happy. She is in a relatively public position, and when friends and family make comments about her appearance, it can carry over to her work. If I posted scanned images of some of her wedding pictures (or later) most of you would be saying "what a beauty". My wife and I keep a picture of ourselves and her, and her husband's brother, taken when she came back to us from a visit from WA state. It is prominently displayed in our kitchen - we formed a goofy conga-line and posed for my film-camera which was on a tripod on a self timer.

 

[Proton Soup]

Your take ?

Moss quote
******************************************************************
WWD: Do you have a motto?
KM: There are loads. There’s “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.” That’s one of them. You try and remember, but it never works.

well, first of all, she's admitting that it's not really true ("it never works"), but it's a lie she tells herself to reach her goal. second, in some ways, she's like a pro athlete. to be successful, she has to train her body to meet a certain goal. this is a goal that, apparently, a majority of the public supports with their hard-earned dinero, otherwise, there would be obese (or at least chubby) supermodels.

is it irresponsible of her? no, i don't think so. what if you amended her statement to read "Nothing tastes as good as not being obese feels." ? it would then say that not being obese may require a lot of pain and sacrifice, but that it is a worthwhile goal. but no one wants to hear that. no one wants to hear "You're fat and it's your own damn fault. You should eat less and exercise more. Yes, it's work, but work isn't supposed to be fun, because then it wouldn't be called work." no, i don't think that would go over well at all. it would even be called irresponsible.

 

[Proton Soup]

I tossed my first wedding pictures, I looked awful. My collar bones were sticking out and my dress just hung there. I weighed 92 pounds. I have no shape. No hips, no rear, no thighs. My first husband asked me once how I managed to keep my pants from falling off since there was nothing to hold them up. I was a shapeless cylinder. But now I'm more weeble shaped.

weebles wobble, but their pants stay up.

 

[Galteeth]

The issue of weight and health is a complex one, especially for women. The US certainly has a problem with obesity and unhealthy overconsumption. However, many girls who do not have weight problems develop severe psychological problems from a negative body image.
It is very difficult to bring people out of dichotomus thinking, especially when it is so closely tied to ego.

To answer the original poster: If the statement is rephrased as "The millions of dollars I receive from keeping myself extremely skinny is worth abstaining from ice cream," then she is right.

Applying the idea more generally, the balance between health and "indulgence" is something different people draw the line at for themselves. I don't think you can really make a general statement that is going to apply to everyone other then "moderation in habits is usually a good idea."

 

[DanP]

rom feeling unhappy, not just to make herself feel happy. It's a distinction that I feel is important. She is slim, slender, etc, but not gaunt, yet people who had known her for most of her life were commenting on how slight she was. She is married to a close friend of mine and it matters to me whether they are happy. She is in a relatively public position, and when friends and family make comments about her appearance, it can carry over to her work. If I posted scanned images of some of her wedding pictures (or later) most of you would be saying "what a beauty". My wife and I keep a picture of ourselves and her, and her husband's brother, taken when she came back to us from a visit from WA state. It is prominently displayed in our kitchen - we formed a goofy conga-line and posed for my film-camera which was on a tripod on a self timer.

turbo,

Im not sure I follow. Why is this distinction important ? Aint the two statements largely equivalent?

About the fact that her family or friends comments impacting her job. Wouldn't be much more reasonable for friends and family to shut-up and don't try to change her into something she doesn't want to be , then her giving to the heat and make herself miserable just to keep happy some ppl which should look after their own business in the first place? Meaning, they should be more concerned with their looks then hers :P

I don't know about others, but I myself would have given the finger long ago to the well meaning but annoying crowd which tries to tell me what I should do with my body. At least I do hope that your friend is 100% behind her in this.

 

[DanP]

I tossed my first wedding pictures, I looked awful. My collar bones were sticking out and my dress just hung there. I weighed 92 pounds. I have no shape. No hips, no rear, no thighs.

Well, Evo, you did scored the millionaire high lord. It must have been something special about you...

 

[DanP]

I'd like to see a study that would support that point. I think skinny girls can have just as much self esteem issues as chubby girls. I know I was always picked on the fact that I was skinny, even on this board people make derogatory comments towards skinny people.

Id like to see a study as well.

My observations where purely empirical, based on what I say daily in the gyms and
during social encounters.

It may very well be statistical in nature. I mean, there are more adult women out there which have issues being overweight rather than a underweight. And the trend is increasing, more and more ppl eat and drink themselves fat. When normalized, it is quite possible the numbers of ppl with issue to be quite close.

While I believe there exist no excuse for a man to be frail and weak, I do find "skinny" girls and athletic types quite attractive. There is no chance in hell Ill go out with an overweight women. If that makes me shallow, that's it, I can live with it. I really do wonder if for every "me" really exists a man who is into "chubby" girls.

 

[Monique]

Perhaps it was bad, we actually called her the "razor boned gazelle", and never meant it in a bad way and she never took it in a bad way. I still call her that today and she knows I mean it lovingly, that's what she is. She actually liked the nickname. We were always concerned that she wasn't eating enough to be healthy, but we never tried to make her eat more. I always had served vegetables and she loved my vegetables, also lentils, she ate a healthy assortnment of foods, but never very much.

Regarding nicknames...when she was very young I called her "head on a stick" (since most kids have disproportionately large heads). After puberty, I called her "hips and boobs on a stick".

Did this affect her? Well at age 16, she told me she was very happy with how she looks. Now, how many 16-year-old girls feel so good about themselves? I think it's all about intent. Sure I would tease her a bit, but I also told her she is very beautiful. (But more often, I reminded her how smart she is .)

If you call your kid/ spouse a fat seal, but you really mean it in a loving way, that would not make sense right? Being compared to a stick is not a compliment, not in my book anyway. Growing up they'd call me 'stick along the waterside' or a guy used to say that 'he was going to put me on his pickup' (it took me a long time to realize he was comparing me to a needle). Constant negative feedback is not good. While some people may start eating more when they're down, my appetite would actually be reduced in such a situation.

Just recently we had a student in the lab and she would constantly be harassed by her (low) weight, with the most ridiculous comments. The people making the snide remarks pretend it is all in good fun, but you shouldn't dare to say anything about their fat distribution.

The Ally McBeal show made me realize that you can be thin and accepted/successful, so that had a big influence on how I could view myself. That would probably seem weird to a lot of people.

 

[DanP]

. The people making the snide remarks pretend it is all in good fun, but you shouldn't dare to say anything about their fat distribution.

Aesop's "The Fox and the Grapes". It seems to me that for many fat individuals a "skinny" women is a personal insult. Going like "If I can't be like her, at least I can pretend I don't care and bash her."

 

[Proton Soup]

Just recently we had a student in the lab and she would constantly be harassed by her (low) weight, with the most ridiculous comments. The people making the snide remarks pretend it is all in good fun, but you shouldn't dare to say anything about their fat distribution.

mostly women? that would be envy. many women can't stand to have a more desirable female in their midst. they'll do anything they can to bring her down a notch. if she's lean, they'll want her fat. if she has long hair, they'll want her to cut it. if she's respectable, they'll want her to have a bad reputation.

 

[Monique]

mostly women? that would be envy. many women can't stand to have a more desirable female in their midst. they'll do anything they can to bring her down a notch. if she's lean, they'll want her fat. if she has long hair, they'll want her to cut it. if she's respectable, they'll want her to have a bad reputation.

Also men, which a young student would look up to, will say in front of a crowd "you should eat more, you look like a walking stick" and laugh about it. It is a demeaning thing to say, no matter how much truth there may be in it. I was tempted to say "you should eat less, your stomach is hanging over your belt", but I'm not going to strike that low

 

[DanP]

"you should eat less, your stomach is hanging over your belt", but I'm not going to strike that low

Is not such a low blow ...Cmmon, do it for the fun of it

 

[turbo]

I identify. I was a distance-runner and competitive skier all through HS. My peak weight though HS was never much more than 120#, and I never hit 130# until I was in college. At 5'7", I was muscular, but pretty lean. I had a lot of friends in college that were wrestlers and football players, and the guys that wanted to recruit me were mostly the wrestlers. Lean muscle means a lot to them. I was far more interested in keeping the health of all of my fingers, hands, etc, because I could make quite a bit of money playing music on friday and saturday nights. That (along with dealing in instruments) was a major piece of cash-flow keeping me in school.

 

[Moonbear]

Also men, which a young student would look up to, will say in front of a crowd "you should eat more, you look like a walking stick" and laugh about it. It is a demeaning thing to say, no matter how much truth there may be in it. I was tempted to say "you should eat less, your stomach is hanging over your belt", but I'm not going to strike that low

It seems that no matter what your weight is, someone will criticize it. It's interesting that people feel so free to criticize weight when they wouldn't be so rude about other aspects of a person's appearance.

I was remarking to my boyfriend recently that I needed to buy new clothes again because I keep gaining weight in my new job (a combination of passing 35 and not spending my days at the farm, but still being on my feet a lot so I'm too tired to even think about things like working out when I get home, plus having the rest of my time to sit at a desk and eat snacks has not been good for my weight). He commented that he's not complaining, because he's been trying to get me to gain weight since we first met, when he thought I was too skeletal. (Obviously not enough to deter him from dating me...but I was a little 114 lb waif of a grad student then.) I liked it when I was that weight, though, because any clothes I bought looked good on me...they were all designed for that size. He complained that my hip bones stuck out too much and hurt him.

Since I've been teaching anatomy, that's actually not the only time I've heard that from men! As we teach them all the parts of the hip bones, I've heard others comment, "Oh, that's the part that hurts when..." and then they just cut their sentence short realizing what they were about to say to their professor. So, apparently men have some big preference for padding in that area.

But, I don't think it matters what size you are...someone will think they can be rude and criticize it.

Though, we have one of our office staff who I'm JEALOUS of! She had a baby last year. She is tall, and thin, and when she was only a week away from having the baby, she still looked teeny tiny, like she was just starting to show (in fact, that was when I first even noticed she was pregnant, when she was preparing for maternity leave!) Now that she has the baby, she's even thinner than before she got pregnant. She does look like a model, and she doesn't have to work at it at all (breast feeding probably helps, but based on her figure before hand, I don't think that's all it is). She eats plenty, but just has the sort of genetics that keep her thin.

Anyway, she looks perfect, but I'm sure she has someone who tells her "Eat! Eat! You're all skin and bones!" But then if you gain weight, they tell you you need to be on a diet.

I think the bottom line is to just be happy with yourself and learn to ignore rude people.

 

[lisab]

Also men, which a young student would look up to, will say in front of a crowd "you should eat more, you look like a walking stick" and laugh about it. It is a demeaning thing to say, no matter how much truth there may be in it. I was tempted to say "you should eat less, your stomach is hanging over your belt", but I'm not going to strike that low

An important point about comments to my daughter, about how skinny she is: intent. Cuddling and kissing a child, while saying she looks like a cute little head on a stick, has no ill intent, IMO. Yet any comment about how someone looks, followed by laughter, is very cruel. I could never do that to anyone, least of all my own daughter.

But comments about my daughter's looks were few and far between. The vast majority of comments she heard while growing up were about on how smart she is, and how kind-hearted she is...positive reinforcement .