Is Mandatory Contraception the Solution to Teen Pregnancy?

[zomgwtf]

I think the main reason for not going through with forced condoms is that once we walk down that road it's going to be twice as hard to get out of it. Why not just make it so that people have to raise there own children. I bet half the people who have babies would stop if there wasn't a good reason $$$ wise to do it. So basically all we men would have to do is stop supporting women who get pregnent via what ever means we do. Like tax breaks, food stamps, education, appartments ect... Just take away any help from someone who has a child. If they can't raise the child without help they shouldn't be having it right?

So you punish the child? This probably won't effect the type of parent your talking about. They would probably just get rid of the child, have an abortion legally or illegally, or the child will just end up dying of neglect.

Maybe we should just take the baby away from the mother at birth and after the mother goes through labour we take out her ovaries.

 

[hamster143]

Or maybe it has to do with that the majority of latinas live in poverty? Which was exactly what russ's post points at: A cycle of pregnancies and increasing poverty. I highly doubt the people in Silicon Valley are poor by any standard. Doesn't Apple and Intel have their headquarters there? I know there are probably 10 Fortune 100 companies with headquarters there.

Where's the causal link between poverty and pregnancy rate? This is not sub-Saharan Africa, you can't argue that poor people can't afford protection. Our local Albertson's carries lubricated condoms for $12.49 per 12-pack. A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H3URIU/?tag=pfamazon01-20 will provide your average non-promiscuous teenage girl with protection for a year.

On the other hand, there is an obvious causal link between religiousness and teen pregnancies.

 

[russ_watters]

In short, we have one effect, and two possible causes. You are arguing for one, zomg, and hamster is arguing for another. I just want to ask... why not both?

Well, both are really suggestions of a factual nature, so we should try to see which one (or part of both) is true. Here's some stats: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf

Unfortunately, they are not broken down according to income or religion, but they are broken down by race. What they say is that latinas have twice the teen pregnancy rate of whites and blacks are a little higher than latinas. Since latinas are more likely to be catholic than black, but both blacks and latinas are on average poorer than whites, I infer a more economic-based corellation.

...I'll continue to look for better stats, though...

 

[Char. Limit]

Where's the causal link between poverty and pregnancy rate? This is not sub-Saharan Africa, you can't argue that poor people can't afford protection. Our local Albertsons carries lubricated condoms for $12.49 per 12-pack. A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H3URIU/?tag=pfamazon01-20 will provide your average non-promiscuous teenage girl with protection for a year.

On the other hand, there is an obvious causal link between religiousness and teen pregnancies.

Yay, representation for my workplace!

 

[zomgwtf]

Where's the causal link between poverty and pregnancy rate? This is not sub-Saharan Africa, you can't argue that poor people can't afford protection. Our local Albertson's carries lubricated condoms for $12.49 per 12-pack. A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H3URIU/?tag=pfamazon01-20 will provide your average non-promiscuous teenage girl with protection for a year.

On the other hand, there is an obvious causal link between religiousness and teen pregnancies.

Education or lack thereof. I clearly stated that in my post. KKTHX

 

[JoeDawg]

try reading the rest of the post, where I say that even though pregnancy isn't a disease, vaccination is still a precedent;

Oh well, as long as YOU said it... but you're still wrong.
They are completely different situations.
So your precedent is invalid.

 

[hamster143]

Unfortunately, they are not broken down according to income or religion, but they are broken down by race. What they say is that latinas have twice the teen pregnancy rate of whites and blacks are a little higher than latinas.

With regard to birth rates, here's some data for different races in California counties:

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_1107HJCC.pdf

page 18

Marin county (very wealthy county, I can't afford to live there and probably neither can you), :

Latinas: 80.5 births / 1000 teens / year
Whites: 3.0 births / 1000 teens / year

 

[russ_watters]

Though I doubt many people disagree about the core facts I've claimed (people are arguing as if they assume they are true), here's some interesting stats I just found that support the starting premise:

What are the chances of a child growing up in pov-erty if:
(1) the mother gave birth as a teen,
(2) the par-ents were unmarried when the child was born, and
(3) the mother did not receive a high school diploma or GED?
27% if one of these things happen
42% if two of these things happen
64% if three of these things happen
Only 7% if none of these things happen
Put another way, if these three things happen, a child’s chance of growing up in poverty is 9 times greater than if none of these things happen.7

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/why-it-matters/pdf/poverty.pdf

 

[hamster143]

Education or lack thereof. I clearly stated that in my post. KKTHX

Please clarify what you mean by education. Latinas and whites go to the same schools and follow the same curricula. Is there something that wealthy white parents learn in college that makes their kids less likely to get pregnant?

 

[russ_watters]

Where's the causal link between poverty and pregnancy rate?

See my post above.

On the other hand, there is an obvious causal link between religiousness and teen pregnancies.

That's a claim of fact I'll need to see evidence for. I can see logically that if a corellation exists the causation would be logical, but I do not see evidence that the corellation exists.

Please clarify what you mean by education. Latinas and whites go to the same schools and follow the same curricula. Is there something that wealthy white parents learn in college that makes their kids less likely to get pregnant?

It's not what they learned in college, it is what they learned at home that enabled them to go to college. Again, see the stats I just posted.

 

[hamster143]

See my post above. That's a claim of fact I'll need to see evidence for. I can see logically that if a corellation exists the causation would be logical, but I do not see evidence that the corellation exists. It's not what they learned in college, it is what they learned at home that enabled them to go to college. Again, see the stats I just posted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

"U.S. states whose residents have more conservative religious beliefs on average tend to have higher rates of teenagers giving birth, a new study suggests. ... [The researchers] found a strong correlation between statewide conservative religiousness and statewide teen birth rate even when they accounted for income and abortion rates."

 

[russ_watters]

With regard to birth rates, here's some data for different races in California counties:

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_1107HJCC.pdf

page 18

Marin county (very wealthy county, I can't afford to live there and probably neither can you), :

Latinas: 80.5 births / 1000 teens / year
Whites: 3.0 births / 1000 teens / year

That data is useless. You seem to be implying that we can assume everyone in that county is equally wealthy, but we can't.

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

"U.S. states whose residents have more conservative religious beliefs on average tend to have higher rates of teenagers giving birth, a new study suggests. ... [The researchers] found a strong correlation between statewide conservative religiousness and statewide teen birth rate even when they accounted for income and abortion rates."

[edit] I was incorrect. It says they did control for income. Well in that case, I'd very much like to see their stats.

 

[hamster143]

It's not what they learned in college, it is what they learned at home that enabled them to go to college. Again, see the stats I just posted.

That's still too vague. "What they learned at home that enabled them to go to college" might well be some liberal religion or lack of any religion. You're implying some sort of intermediate link in the causal chain (since there's no direct poverty->teen pregnancy causation), but it's not clear to me what it is.

The researchers do not attempt to control for education

They do control for income:

"Religiosity correlated negatively with median household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, was 0.53 (p < 0.0005). "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19761588

 

[zomgwtf]

What I mean by lack of education is simply that from my experience poor people tend not to attend school, and they tend to not pay attention or they dick around etc.. Those that really strive in school and want to better themselves are really rare. Most of them just want to make money you know?

I never said a correlation for religion didn't have anything to do with I just downplayed how substantial a role it had to do with it relative to income. Especially since you are picking on the latinas, which aren't exactly the most wealthy group in America.

hamster seems to be getting rid of poverty entirely and is taking this moment in time to hack away at religious ideologies, you can tell by the way he treats what other people bring up as completely wrong and throws all the blame to religion lol.

EDIT: By the way, my math skills are not up-to-par but I think what that article says is that income is a more substantial influence in teen-pregnancy. Not 100% sure though...

 

[russ_watters]

That's still too vague. "What they learned at home that enabled them to go to college" might well be some liberal religion or lack of any religion. You're implying some sort of intermediate link in the causal chain (since there's no direct poverty->teen pregnancy causation), but it's not clear to me what it is.

The causal link is that poverty is associated with/caused by poor life choices/risk behaviors. Teen pregnancy the result of one of those risk behaviors and kids learn it from their parents.

They do control for income:

"Religiosity correlated negatively with median household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, was 0.53 (p < 0.0005). "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19761588

I edited my post after reading more of the article - I'll take a look. In any case, the quote you posted above says that while "religiosity" is significant, income is more significant.

 

[russ_watters]

While I find this part of the discussion interesting, it is really off topic. Regardless of what causes teen pregnancy, you do agree that teen pregnancy causes poverty, right?

 

[magpies]

Teen pregnancy doesn't cause poverty... Poverty exists because money needs slaves.

 

[russ_watters]

Teen pregnancy doesn't cause poverty... Poverty exists because money needs slaves.

Huh?

 

[JoeDawg]

Regardless of what causes teen pregnancy, you do agree that teen pregnancy causes poverty, right?

This is a severe leap in logic, unless you're claiming Bristol Palin is now living in poverty.
Some how I doubt it.

Not having rich parents, however, can lead to poverty.

 

[zomgwtf]

This is a severe leap in logic, unless you're claiming Bristol Palin is now living in poverty.
Some how I doubt it.

Not having rich parents, however, can lead to poverty.

I think teen pregnancy has been shown to be a cause of 'perpetual' poverty or at least presenting a legit inability for poverty to continue to grow...

 

[JoeDawg]

I think teen pregnancy has been shown to be a cause of 'perpetual' poverty or at least presenting a legit inability for poverty to continue to grow...

You have to have poverty, before you can have perpetual poverty.
So, while there may be a correlation, arguing cause is more tenuous.

In the western world I would say family wealth and racism have a bigger impact than anything on a person's possible future poverty.

 

[Char. Limit]

You have to have poverty, before you can have perpetual poverty.
So, while there may be a correlation, arguing cause is more tenuous.

In the western world I would say family wealth and racism have a bigger impact than anything on a person's possible future poverty.

So first we have "sexual discrimination", and now we have "racism"...

Heck, I wish I got a nickel for every time someone used these TWO tactics! I'd own the world!

Edit: note that I'm sensitive to those two things because, being white and male, I'm the type of person implicitly accused of keeping non-whites down, and I don't like it. I don't like it at all. As a wise man once said...

"The way to stop racial discrimination is to stop racially discriminating."

 

[JoeDawg]

So first we have "sexual discrimination", and now we have "racism"...

We've had both for quite a while... maybe you were too busy counting nickels to notice.

 

[DanP]

So first we have "sexual discrimination", and now we have "racism"...

Heck, I wish I got a nickel for every time someone used these TWO tactics! I'd own the world!

Edit: note that I'm sensitive to those two things because, being white and male, I'm the type of person implicitly accused of keeping non-whites down, and I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

They are both serious issues in today society, regardless you like them or not.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Personally I see no practical way to institute such a plan without a government being toppled. Nature or warfare will do for us eventually, and then overpopulation will no longer be a primary concern.

This is inflammatory, but not really useful.

 

[zomgwtf]

You have to have poverty, before you can have perpetual poverty.
So, while there may be a correlation, arguing cause is more tenuous.

Ok. Poverty spawns more poverty with a major factor being the amount of teen pregnancies due to the failure to educate people.

In the western world I would say family wealth and racism have a bigger impact than anything on a person's possible future poverty.

Family wealth sure but racism? Maybe racism limits the amount of wealth a person can attain but I don't think it continues to create more poverty. Do you have any articles showing this?

Just to make it clear I wouldn't call throwing a bunch of people in a certain area of town racism when that's the only space you currently have to throw them. The amount of immigrants is rediculous. (I.e. here in Canada poor immigrants are put into 'poor areas' since they can't currently afford to live anywhere better however the government DOES give a lot to the immigrants that travel to here hmm) Maybe racism is different in America though and it actually does make people poor. I'd have to research it though. I know here blacks, whites, asians etc. all have the same amount of opportunities, in fact the fresh immigrant minorities get a lot of government help to make life work here.

 

[JoeDawg]

Ok. Poverty spawns more poverty with a major factor being the amount of teen pregnancies due to the failure to educate people.

No, that's an incredible oversimplification.
You could just as easily say that poverty is a 'major' cause of teenage pregnancy.
In fact, both poverty and teenage pregnancy are dependent on a variety of factors. And in some contexts... one factor may be predominant... while in another time and place, it could be the other ones.

Just to make it clear I wouldn't call throwing a bunch of people in a certain area of town racism

No, what you describe would probably be better classified as bigotry against immigrants.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Canada one of those countries that depends on immigrants just to maintain its population?

'Throwing a bunch of people' anywhere is pretty disrespectful... in my book.

 

[Kerrie]

I can't tell about the last sentence... are you saying that you don't agree, that this is sexual discrimination, or you don't agree that this is sexual discrimination? Are you saying it is or it isn't?

Sorry about the confusion. It is not sexual discrimination against women on the subject of mandatory contraception.

 

[Kerrie]

While I find this part of the discussion interesting, it is really off topic. Regardless of what causes teen pregnancy, you do agree that teen pregnancy causes poverty, right?

Not if the child is given up for adoption.

 

[Char. Limit]

Sorry about the confusion. It is not sexual discrimination against women on the subject of mandatory contraception.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Pythagorean]

Not if the child is given up for adoption.

I don't know the turnover rate for adoption, but surely there wouldn't be enough demand for every teen pregnancy becoming an adoption. I wonder what happens to oprhans that make it to 18 without getting a family?

 

[magpies]

They spend most of there lifes stuck in some type of slave labor or the mental hospitals.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

...don't have time for this right now, though. But in short, I don't see the issue too much differently than mandatory innoculation.

Except for the fact that there is still precedent for requiring that children take certain drugs, even if they're perfectly healthy. It doesn't matter if they're for a deadly disease or not, vaccinations still set a precedent.

The precedent set by inoculation would have to be based on a cost benefit analysis and not just the superficial similarity of the ideas.

Pretty much any drug or vaccine is likely to have at least some small percentage of side effects. Looking at one time inoculations we may find some very small percentage of persons who react poorly, but we are balancing this against a much larger percentage of people who will fall prey to a fatal or crippling disease. There is also a net benefit to inoculations in that the more children receiving them means the less chance that those who do not will be exposed to these diseases.

On the other hand birth control is administered over the entire desired period (in this case five years) increasing the possibility of long term side effects. As Kerrie points out this would also be during the female's period of sexual development. We are likely looking at the possibilities of infertility and hormonal imbalances at the least. This we are balancing against the benefit of avoiding inconvenience and at the worst socioeconomic hardship. Aside from a small (though admittedly significant) dent in government spending there is not really a net benefit to the issue of teen pregnancy as a whole.

They do not really compare very favourably.

I don't know the turnover rate for adoption, but surely there wouldn't be enough demand for every teen pregnancy becoming an adoption. I wonder what happens to oprhans that make it to 18 without getting a family?

The orphans that are "stuck in the system" are children that were taken from, or given up by, families that could not take care of them later in their life. Adoption of newborns is far and away most popular. There is in fact a waiting list to adopt newborns. Unfortunately not many women are very keen on giving up a child that they carried for nine months and gave birth to or many of those children in foster homes right now may have escaped their stay in the system.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

The highest demand for adoption is that of a newborn upon birth. The older you are, the less likely your chances become. That said, pregnancy is going to disrupt schooling, and there is emotional fallout. I can see that contributing to poverty.