Is Memory the Key to Disproving the Existence of God?

[selfAdjoint]

So all the sun comes up in the east of the world and travels across the sky to the west of the world, that's just "coded words" and light as a wave, that's some phrase with your own secret interpretation. Frankly my dear, it isn't worth a damn.

And the Book of Enoch isn't in the Bible because it wasn't written by Enoch but by a heretical sect of Judaism in the first century - i.e after the destruction of the temple.

 

[Alem2000]

"through which the rays of the sun break forth: and from them is warmth" enoch 3 chapter 75:4. Okay how about that? And by the way it wasnt written by a heretical jewish sect after the destruction of the temply because after it was lost it was found in ethiopia and was said to have been there early before King Solomon and his temple. And you didnt think of the fact that the first language it was written in was ethiopic and enoch was an east african. And next time please read the whole thing not just the first paragraph before you start to "damn" it. And what about the orbits?

 

[Alem2000]

I think we are straying from the point of these threds. I don't have a specific standing on the scripture or have a good understand of its coded language. And if you ask what i mean by that..i think it is very obvious that the bible is coded and allmost allways has (2nd 3rd...ect) meaning that theologins know..ie we are not theologins.

So ill stop talking and let the scientists speak.
Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle:

"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."

Theoretical physicist Albert Einstein:

"The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation... His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

Theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking:

"The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."

Astronomer Robert Jastrow:

"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Physicist James Trefil:

"...The evidence we have at present clearly favors the conclusion that we are alone. From the formation of the sun as a single G star to the evolution of the Earth's atmosphere to the conditions of the Earth's recent climate, everything points to the same conclusion -- we are special.

"But we are living on an insignificant speck of rock going around an undistinguished star in a low-rent section of the galaxy. We are not the center of the universe.

"Maybe so, but we are special.

...If I were a religious man, I would say that everything we have learned about life in the past twenty years shows that we are unique, and therefore special in God's sight. Instead I shall say that what we have learned shows that it matters a great deal what happens to us."

 

[Mike2]

Why do we not consider that God is the Logic that created and sustains all things? Then both Theologians and Scientist are both doing the same thing, trying to understand Him better.

 

[shadowman]

Why do we not consider that God is the Logic that created and sustains all things? Then both Theologians and Scientist are both doing the same thing, trying to understand Him better.

I agree very much, Mike... CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

 

[shrumeo]

(hey folks, since i keep getting emails and i keep reading this insane thread I'll throw in another 2 cents)

Why do we have to understand "HIM" ? Who the +%@# is "HE"?

What is so hard about just shrugging, saying "I dunno", and leaving it at that? DO you HAVE to believe one way or the other? Must everything be proven or disproven to be true or untrue? Just accept that you will never know and deal with it. Is it so hard?

I think we all actually WILL start to get along once this happens.

 

[shadowman]

(hey folks, since i keep getting emails and i keep reading this insane thread I'll throw in another 2 cents)

Why do we have to understand "HIM" ? Who the +%@# is "HE"?

What is so hard about just shrugging, saying "I dunno", and leaving it at that? DO you HAVE to believe one way or the other? Must everything be proven or disproven to be true or untrue? Just accept that you will never know and deal with it. Is it so hard?

I think we all actually WILL start to get along once this happens.

so are you telling me that you are willing to straddle the fence and be just fat, dumb and happy about the whole thing? All of science from the atheist or creationist point of view is about finding more answers. You can't just be complacent. Do you realize that if everyone had your way of thinking, we might still be thinking the world is flat? Continents would not have been discovered by the "modern" world. We would still think that atoms are little tiny balls that are the smallest single unit in the universe. We would have definatly never entered space or landed on the moon. So even though there is a battle so to speak going on, it is necessary for progress. for if you never stand for something, then you'll fall for anything.

 

[selfAdjoint]

If you stick with scientific investigation - the real thing - then you come up with no proof of God's existence and no proof of his non-existance. So there's no scientific reason to say yea or nay. Beyond that there are the human religions and churches. Many scientists have a very low opinion of them.

 

[hazakate]

truthfully does it matter if there is really a god. it is a way for the non fufilled to exist and if they need it to exist where is it are place to tell them it is not true. everyone has there belifes it is all your choice not others. i was place in a anglican school where belife is pushed on you. it is your right to believe as you wish

 

[hazakate]

such hate in such a small area this is what happened in iraq

 

[Mike2]

If you stick with scientific investigation - the real thing - then you come up with no proof of God's existence and no proof of his non-existance. So there's no scientific reason to say yea or nay. Beyond that there are the human religions and churches. Many scientists have a very low opinion of them.

If God is the Logic that maintains consistency between facts and thus determines all things, then His existence is the starting premise of anyone who thinks. How hypocritical for someone who claims to think straight to deny God. That's like denying that logic is relevant to any conversation. Such people disqualify themselves from debate.

 

[sol2]

If God is the Logic that maintains consistency between facts and thus determines all things, then His existence is the starting premise of anyone who thinks. How hypocritical for someone who claims to think straight to deny God. That's like denying that logic is relevant to any conversation. Such people disqualify themselves from debate.

There are many sicentific minded people who believe in God. They understand the requirements of science in the debate. Yet they still believe.

Should such people disqualify themselves from the current project they are working on? The ultimate adherence to the scientific world would be the home of the atheist, because of the requirement of its supporting factual needs.

You had mentioned a falsifiable assumption as a starting point to the big bang?

Some do not need this, they just change the way they look at things:)

Is this not logical?

 

[shadowman]

this is what happened in iraq

Listen, you can be against God or for God...that is your business. But DON'T you go somewhere you don't need to go. What on Earth do you know about Iraq? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING ! The things you know are only what you hear from the misinformed too-liberal-for-their-own-good media. You have absolutly NO idea what is really going on in Iraq. I just got back from there. We are not the cause of Iraqi suffering. What causes problems is when you give children care packages with food and other things to take back to their families, and then their parents shooting and killing the children because they interacted with american soldiers. They are a poor hurting people because of the regime they just came from. Most Iraqi people desire us to be there, but it is the ones like i mentioned above that make the media. All you hear is about the bombers and the extremists that don't want us there. You do not hear about the lives we save, and the thousands upon thousands of people we help. So unless you have been there and experienced it for yourself, SHUT UP. unless you have friends killed by people they are trying to help, SHUT UP. you know what, just shut up anyway.

 

[Deca-of-CD]

*skims through all of the posts*

"Anyway, what's wrong living a morally correct life?"

Forgot who said that^ ... But you are implying that people who do not believe in your 'almighty' God are living immorally?.. And besides, I know many Christians who do not live morally correct lives, yet they insist on forcefeeding me their bull****..

And why is it that 90% of Christians do the same things when confronted with proof of the existence of their God? They either: attack in numbers (which this thread is a good example of.. though, there happens to be many non-religious people joining in the fray to combat the religious.. so meh), change the subject, avoid the question, or block/ban/ignore you..

 

[TsunamiJoe]

first of all i believe tell peolpe to "shut up" and putting others down in this forum is prohibited

secondly if you think hard about morality, morality is based upon religion why? because very long ago when religions were formed they were told or instructed by a vision, prophet, or what-not that such things are wrong. But in todays available free thinking society people will say no i don't believe in religion and tell you somethings wrong without having non-theological proof to support it.

another thing is. Is that if we were to have just stopped the persuit of knowlage which is what shrumeo is saying to do. Thus meaning we should have just stopped bothering trying to develope usable electricity. To hell with the automobile and radio and lightbulb! Why in Earth should we have went through the pursuit of developing the wheel, I mean come on what has it done for us? (sarcasm there my friends in case no one noticed)

also thank you for the responce to my post but what you said was completely illogical for soddom and Gomorrah are actually scientifically said to have a high chance of actually being not actual cities but symbols of degradation of society. Also do you know what the red sea scrolls actually are? they themselves for many ought to proove gods existence indefinintly. Though due to sketchy translations the english version of them isn't terribly usefull to most unless you know its origanal language. secondly it will be literally impossible to detect traces of a flaming chariot due-to-the-fact that it wasnt an actual flaming chariot but a mere "metephysical" symbolism of such. If one would understand the bible to a great extent one would discover it is primarily a lot of symbolism, for the what i will call "primitive" culture they used what best they could to discribe the "extravagant" acts of god.

 

[Moonrat]

No. God does not need memory. Would you also suggest that to have a personality God needs a brain?

Hope no one minds if I jump in here, but there are a few mistakes made in the 'logic' that there is no God. First and foremost, I want to prefrence that God is mystery, and therefore I do not have any proof of the existence of God either, but I do have proof of the existence of mystery, which, if there is a god, she may be hiding behind that!

Now, first error in the logic is defining what attributes God must have to exist. Now, this is not objective logic but rather subjective reasoning, but even if it was objective, that still would not mean there is no proof of God, because therefore even if God had such human attributes, in an infinite universe or an infinite system, human or human like intelligence may then be the creative component and organising princaple of the universe itself.

The reasoning of intelligence is an important factor, indeed, in an infinite system, let's say humanity exists in rather large quantity, but is spread out in infinite directions and participates in creation (just like we are beginning to now in our evolution) Intelligence perhaps is this 'eternal' component that forms in life and evolves in something human like and then spreads itself out and onward (which would mean that WE are the 'memory' and biological factors of 'god')

now, THIS is a logical representation of what God 'could' be, and it fits rational thought, however, GOd is STILL mystery, and any represenation of mystery is FALSE until one has OBJECTIVE proof for all to see or come to similar conclusions...

I mean, dark matter is at the perfect and precise proportion in our universe for galaxies to form. Any less, and no galaxies, i.e no planets, i.e. no life. We don't know what the hell dark matter is, we are swimming in this sea of mystery and it is not logical to assume we have a proper definition of a source of creation based on our 'myths'...


No?


Moonrat

 

[selfAdjoint]

Several thoughts on your post, Moonrat -

The attributes ascribed to God in the alleged proof are those Christians ascribe to him, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. It's an old saying that these two attributes, plus the existence of evil in the world, generate a tension with the goodness of God. It's no answer to say God is a mystery; if he didn't want us to reason about him why did he give us reason in the first place?

Second it is true that some physicists are trying to use an "Anthropic" explanation for the fine tuning problem, but others are looking more to an evolution of universes to explain it. Science as a whole doesn't give ny evidence for God.

 

[Moonrat]

Several thoughts on your post, Moonrat -

The attributes ascribed to God in the alleged proof are those Christians ascribe to him, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

well, they arent just Christian, they are jewish and Muslim, and American Indian, and many others. I do think that christians do tend to put the most human face on God, that is true.

omnipotentence is in all directions. Mystery too is omnidirectional and is in all directions.

It's an old saying that these two attributes, plus the existence of evil in the world, generate a tension with the goodness of God. It's no answer to say God is a mystery; if he didn't want us to reason about him why did he give us reason in the first place?

.

well, it is an honest and objective answer to say that God is Mystery, any reasoning about God without objective proof can only be belief or art. Even in the western religions God is often referred to as the 'great mystery'

it is not that we should not reason about God, it is that we 'cannot' reason about that which we do not know. we can come up with all kinds of things about what lay beyond the great mystery, but all of these ideas are just personal and subjective, which is wonderful for art, but bad for science.

To say 'God is Mystery' is the most reason we can apply to the scenario. the mind can find harmony with mystery and feel it's presence, but when it denies it is mystery, then it is participating in a false universe and not an objective one.

Second it is true that some physicists are trying to use an "Anthropic" explanation for the fine tuning problem, but others are looking more to an evolution of universes to explain it. Science as a whole doesn't give ny evidence for God

I personally think the best evidence we have for a 'higher intelligence' is DNA. I mean, DNA terraformed this whole planet from a poisonoues firey hell to what we have today.

My suggestion, which is not an original idea on my part, is that 'DNA' may be a universal constant, i.e. the intelligence that spreads and spreads...

how long before humanity can create galaxies? 1000 years? we can already create a black hole!

I don't think it is the place of science to provide proof of God, really, I don't think it can. I think it is both ART and SCIENCE which must work together on this. science cannot understand ART, and that is the clincher!


thank you for the great discussion

 

[n0n]

Ok, here's the delio people, god exists and god does not exist. symbolically god is all of existence, litterally god is the ablity to over power something, and we do that in every moment just by our selfs. The laws of physics are god they will not bend for any being, and I'm absolutely sure that Christ wasn't an exception (what kind of defiance would actually walking on water mean? I do not think that Christ would defy his belief of god as the fabric of understanding(logic).). See even with or without a god 2 consepts wall each other in, something & nothing. If god is everything then nothing cannot exist except as everything (which isn't entirely wrong). But if god is nothing then what we see becomes a separation and reduction of something, were one infinite gives rise and the sheading to nothing continues. We then become with or against something, and that is were choice is made, yes or no and their is no maybe, for maybe is the blade that kills, maybe is to the sum of nothing + & -. and so the answer in my opinnion is yes their is a god, and no their is not a god. and both are to their fullest extents of the meanings. And progression progresses.

 

[Janitor]

we can already create a black hole!- Moonrat

I would love to hear more about that. I would have said that human technology was not even close to being able to do that.

I haven't read every single post in this thread. Has anybody pointed out that a human who hears a literal Voice Of God in her head can be 100 percent sure of the existence of God?

Those around her may make the claim that she is schizophrenic or whatever, but if she herself is unaware of any brain malfunctions that she may be having, she will surely feel justified in her certainty of God's existence.

Years ago I heard a radio preacher recount his experience of conversing with a certain Christian woman. He says that in the middle of conversation she interrupted herself, gazed upward, and said, "What Lord? Oh yes, I will do that. Thank you Lord."

Another radio preacher--if I recall his name was something like Andrew Wommack--told of being in a church service that was taking place concurrently with a World Series baseball game. The preacher in that service told the audience that God had just revealed to him that so-and-so had just hit a three-run home run in the bottom of the sixth and that it made the score such-and-such. The radio preacher said that after the service, when he got a chance to read about the game in the newspaper, that very thing had indeed happened.

 

[Deca-of-CD]

Janitor:

Ever heard of small, hand-held portable radios with little ear bud headphones? ...

And technology is not up to par to create a black hole, moonrat...not even close..

 

[Janitor]

Ever heard of small, hand-held portable radios with little ear bud headphones? ...- Deca-of-CD

Yes indeed! There was a televangelist named Peter Popoff who got caught doing something like that. He would have his ushers pass out questionnaire forms before the service. Visitors would fill them out and hand them back. During the service, Popoff would get the information sent to him by his wife, who had a radio transmitter with her in another room of the church. It was all very impressive, until a skeptic figured out how it probably worked, and then used a scanner to find the right frequency and made a recording of the wife. I remember one of the things he taped her saying was, "If you can't hear me, you're in big trouble..."

 

[Deca-of-CD]

Exactly. Therefore, religion is bah...

I mean..that's like me saying "God has just told me that...the news is on channel 5 right now" at Noon, when indeed there is a 30 minute news broadcast

 

[TsunamiJoe]

well technically no one actually hears god, god doesn't have a voice. If the person isn't mentally ill and actually does here a voice it is of a certain angel (whose name escapes me right now) that is saying it. His name might be micheal?? But his offical title is the "Voice of God"

 

[Janitor]

technically no one actually hears god, god doesn't have a voice. If the person isn't mentally ill and actually does here a voice it is of a certain angel... -TsunamiJoe

Maybe you can find Biblical support for that position. There were a few in the Protestant Church I went to as a kid who told matter-of-factly about how God instructed them to do this or that specific thing. They never said, "An angel told me..." It was always, "The Lord told me..." or "God told me..." And preachers started many a sermon with the words, "The Lord laid it on my heart this week to speak on the topic of..." In general, I have noticed that as compared to Catholics, Protestants downplay angels, saints, and Mary, but maybe refer more to Satan.

 

[Janitor]

Five minutes ago Trinity Broadcasting TV ran a clip of Matt Crouch--I believe he is the son of the hosts Paul and Jan Crouch--saying, "The Lord told me, in my car, 'I will choose anyone, at any time, to...' " That is an exact quote. So there are people out there who believe, or at least talk as though they believe, that God speaks directly to them with an audible voice in their head.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

ok well

gabriel - messanger of god
angel of death - angel who comes to you when you die (obviously)

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Ok, here's the delio people, god exists and god does not exist.

Whoa superposition on a macro-scopic level? You've just successfully combined
Quantum mechanics with General Relativity. :p
(( that was an old post, i know :-/ ))

 

[Janitor]

So maybe they are mistaking Gabriel's voice for the Lord's voice.

What then is Michael famous for?

 

[n0n]

Why should anything exist any more then it does not exist? This is the combined philosophical study of life to the existing of life. Is their a universalness of it? God is a philosophical question, because and only because, if god is complete understanding then god is logic, so then we ask why does logic exist? and science turns to philosophy and asks "why do we understand?", and philosophy responds with "to be or not to be?".

QMGR cannot be defined as simply as a void concept (can it even define void period?), because QMGR isn't based within nothing but around that which observably exists, and hence why god exists and god does not exist "could define QMGR in a very very basic way".

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Ooooooookkkaaaaaaaaaaaaay...anyway, its either a yes or no, God either exists or doesn't and if your talking about QM then those who believe obviously have a reason, Eg. the superposition of waves has collapsed in their live and they KNOW that God is real. Note also: I am talking about God, not god.

 

[TsunamiJoe]

ok redo this -

michael=messanger
gabriel=destructor (he destroyed an entire invading force furing the night while joshua and his army was asleep in the city)

michael pronounced jesus' apparent birth witht he angels, he talked to zacharius, virtually anything you hear that is actually from god, is michael

 

[Janitor]

Thanks for clarifying, Tsunami.

I remember back in the 1980s that Rev. Oral Roberts, a famous faith healer, spoke to a 900-foot-tall Jesus who informed Brother Roberts that he would be "called home" to Heaven if he failed to raise sufficient money for his medical center in Tulsa. No mention of Michael was made.

 

[n0n]

Ha, right. I see, we who think of physical existence are crazy. And yet we who think of physical existence think, we who think God exists are crazy. This is called duality and hence god exists and does not exist. Don't overlook the obviousness of existence. The ideology of god,which is a good one, is not all correct and again why god exists and does not exist. people being talked to by a rock is a little much but whatever, not all beings are stable nor are they expected to be (proof). funny I remember a case were some mother killed 2 of here children and beaten one close to death all cause she honestly thought god told her to do so, and that was like about 3 months ago maybe less. note: she was classified insane. and gelsamel epsilon explain god in zero, then tell me it's either yes or no, and not both. God is an easy escape(exactly the opposite of what religion tell's people), if you cannot forgive your own sins(are you able to ask for forgiveness from the person you did wrong to, and not just ask oh god forgive me form stealing their "VCR" for crack, I'm so bad. then do it a day later) then uh, your going to feel guilty(na, they just wouldn't care(proof of a positive from religion)), if you are not happy with your life and you don't want to change it then uh, your not going to be happy any time soon. that is both god and false hope, and that is exist and not exist. was Shakespeare wrong to say "to be or not to be", god/Christ/religion couldn't even come up with anything as genius as that. now you might have some guy who can relate stories to it but who gives a ____ , you can relate anything to anything else. pray to your idols for they are the god(worship it, pray to it, give it money, only it can save you, only it can heal you) you put before god(true existence, physical existence, imaginative existence,philosophy, science). that is the difference between sane and insane were do you stand? that is the difference from one who will accent into a heaven if it exists, and one who will go to hell because they do not understand the ways of God, Which teaches and so we must learn and that is what we do, not ask for affirmations of how great gods power is, but to just seek existence as its affirmation of power and we must learn it to be closer to God, that is the genius of God, not the ploy of marketing it. And that's why you don't ever see billboards of scientific proof, but billboards with words of "God", ie."god loves you". because its a brain washer with good morals and a marketing strategy to keep you as their lap dogs. And this is the only way to deal with dualities and explaining both halves of such ideals. Yes and no, for that is the only way a choice can be made we must have the option of either to exist.

 

[shrumeo]

wow, i have seen some pointless discussions in this forum
but this one wins for highest BS ratio
that is (the number of words)/(actually saying anything)