Is the universe finite or infinite?

In summary, the concept of the universe having boundaries or being finite or infinite is still an open question. The visible universe is finite and bounded, as per the inflationary theory of the big bang. However, the possibility of the universe being finite in volume without a boundary exists, depending on its topology. Additionally, the idea of infinity in physics is debatable and there is no evidence to support it. The behavior of phenomena in the universe at critical points suggests a changing of rules and the loss of the concept of volume at a certain size, leading to the idea that asking about the size of the universe beyond that point is not following the new rules. The concept of "infinite" is described as being bigger than the biggest thing ever by The
  • #106
Eric333 said:
In basic terms, it was a central node that exploded right?

Nope. Again, it sort of occurred everywhere. In basic terms, it was an incredibly dense stuff everywhere, and space sort of started expanding, decreasing the density of this incredibly dense stuff and bringing any two points further apart. Sorry if this doesn't sound too rigorous, it's an imperfect wording, but suffices.
 
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  • #107
Eric, you must not understand the expansion as an outward movement within three dimensions. If so we would observe empty space (no stars or galaxies) "inwards" and "outwards" and the galaxies would lie in a plane or disc in the other directions. This is not the case the universe is evenly filled with galaxies in all directions. The expansion is an ever increasing distance between non-gravitationally bound objects. There is no spatial point an inch beyond the big bang at any time. At least not located in what we usually define as the universe.
 
  • #108
Eric333 said:
Everywhere? In basic terms, it was a central node that exploded right? Then the elements of that explosion expanded outward (and is still doing so). What is 1 inch beyond the boundary of that ever expanding explosion?

This is why I hate the term "Big Bang". It just screams "explosion in space". Instead of an explosion, imagine the universe running backwards in time. Everything gets closer to everything else until the entire universe, ALL of it, is extremely dense and extremely hot. This is the earliest period that we can make good theories about. At this point in time, the universe was still infinite in size and there is still no center. As time passed the universe expanded, meaning that the distance between all objects not bound increased with time, until we get to our present day universe. Have you ever heard of the raisin bread analogy?
 
  • #109
Drakkith said:
This is why I hate the term "Big Bang". It just screams "explosion in space". Instead of an explosion, imagine the universe running backwards in time.

I actually like the term. A "bang" is a loud noise and much of the data we are looking at involves essentially looking at the "sound of the universe".

One term that I've used in talking about the CMB which I think is accurate is the "wall of fire".

Everything gets closer to everything else until the entire universe, ALL of it, is extremely dense and extremely hot.

The other thing that I think is useful is not to think about the entire universe. One thing to imagine is to take a camera and "zoom in" to our part observable universe and then just think of that. There is a part of the universe that you can't see, but it helps not to think of that.

One other point is that much of what we think of as the big bang, isn't that dense and isn't that hot. One reason I like talking about the "wall of fire" is that the temperatures and density at CMB separation are typical of those that we see when we deal with ordinary fire.

At this point in time, the universe was still infinite in size and there is still no center.

This is why the "zoom lens" picture makes sense to me. Imagine a picture with you at the center that goes out several tens of billions of light years. By thinking about *part* of the universe rather than the whole thing, I'm thinking about a finite bit that my mind can comprehend.
 
  • #111
Drakkith said:
... At this point in time, the universe was still infinite in size

No, it was only infinite in size THEN if it is infinite in size NOW and we don't know that it is.
 
  • #112
My personal answer will be like this, the universe is neither finite nor infinite.
 
  • #113
Can you explain more please? What do you mean?
 
  • #114
Mohd Abdullah said:
My personal answer will be like this, the universe is neither finite nor infinite.

Which is nonsensical.
 
  • #115
phinds said:
No, it was only infinite in size THEN if it is infinite in size NOW and we don't know that it is.

Of course my slobbery friend!
 
  • #116
Drakkith said:
Of course my slobbery friend!

Gad, you are slowing down. Two weeks to kibitz ?
 
  • #117
they haven't ruled out an FLRW universe with non-zero curvature yet! In other words, the universe is not necessarily infinite. It is simply large enough that we have a 'fairly flat' universe. 'fairly flat' meaning that most cosmological models predict that the most likely curved universes would be very curved compared to ours. Also, our universe is within experimental error of zero curvature. So in this sense, the universe is 'flat'. There are also chaotic inflation models that do not require a big bang. I guess these are less standard.
 
  • #118
phinds said:
Gad, you are slowing down. Two weeks to kibitz ?

Quiet you, or I'll stuff you back in your kennel!
 
  • #119
In theory, if the universe is exactly flat, it is probably spatially infinite. Observationally, it is so close to being exactly flat it is impossible to draw any conclusion - other than it is huge [what a shock]. I doubt we will ever be able to conclusively prove one way or another.
 

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