Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[MiceAndMen]

Some people think that this is yellow reactor cap... or part of it...

The circled thing on that photo looks like a piece of steel framework. The primary containment vessel cap is yellow, but not the reactor cap. Whatever is circled on that photo is neither round nor yellow.

Who are "some people"?

Is it just me or has the level of baseless speculation reached new heights here over the last week?

 

[jlduh]

The water is mainly concentrated from the tsunami that has leaked into the plant and then got contaminated

http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

SO this is a new confirmation (I mentionned it already from sources cited in an other article) that part of the water in the basement is from tsunami, then got contaminated by leaks from reactors.

 

[MiceAndMen]

At least now she already knows she was wrong.

Hah! I think she doesn't care. She obviously reads this thread but is unwilling to join in the discussions for some reason.

 

[jlduh]

Inside NP Austria Zwetendorf
http://www.zwentendorf.com/Tour_AkwZwentendorf/tour_AKW_Zwentendorf.html

Just in case people would wonder how this tour is possible in this BWR 730 MegaWatts nuclear power plant, just read the history around this plant which is unique in the world: "The Zwentendorf Nuclear Reactor is the safest atomic power plant in the world – simply because it never went into operation."!

http://www.nuclear-power-plant.net/index.php?lang=en&item=history
http://www.nuclear-power-plant.net/index.php?lang=en&item=facts

 

[Caniche]

Here a summary after 7 weeks: http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/5173479472/fukushima-7-week-update

Here a translation of the Plant Tour Video: http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

Works for me.

Available again . no.'s 3 +4 show utter carnage not much chance of any functional infrastructure remaining,no. 2 looks worse though ,that is big emission volumes ,somethings cooking?

 

[imandylite]

http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/5_3_vid.html

SO this is a new confirmation (I mentionned it already from sources cited in an other article) that part of the water in the basement is from tsunami, then got contaminated by leaks from reactors.

This was revealed a few weeks ago in one of the TEPCO and Jap Government press meetings. It was an answer to a question on process for the low contamination of large volumes of water.

The answer was that small amounts of highly contaminated water was leaking from earthquake damaged primary pipes and finding its way into tsunami flooded areas.

I have found links to some of these press briefings. But, sorry, didn't bookmark. They do exist and are usually over an hour (sometimes two) in length. The main points of interest are the answers given by representatives to questions asked by invited journalists. The problem I have found is that the journalists seem not to have a scientific or engineering background.

 

[jlduh]

Does somebody has an idea of what Tepco means when they consider the use of these "existing tubes" to try to cool the reactor N°1? Which tubes are these?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_18.html

Tokyo Electric Power Company plans to circulate water in the reactor's containment vessel with the use of tubes that are already in place.

The water will be sent to a heat exchanger that will be installed near one of the reactor building's entrances.

Then the water will be pumped through a cooling tower outside the building before being returned to the containment vessel via the tubes.
[...]

The company says the system is expected to circulate about 100 tons of water per hour to cool down an estimated 1,500 kilowatts of heat radiating from fuel rods in the reactor.

It says once the new system is put into operation, it should lower the temperature of the fuel in the reactor to below 100 degrees Celsius within a few hours to a few days.

 

[Dmytry]

Boy, would I be looking forward to a shower in June... From:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11050409-e.html"

Spare a thought for these people.

Ohh my god. radioactive contamination and no showers. Guys, this is officially far, far more messed up than Chernobyl. This is just terrible.
(It is hard to imagine how terrible it is, though, and easy to understate)

 

[zapperzero]

Ohh my god. radioactive contamination and no showers. Guys, this is officially far, far more messed up than Chernobyl. This is just terrible.
(It is hard to imagine how terrible it is, though, and easy to understate)

I promised to refrain from speculation so, just facts. Among past posts in this thread you will find some linking to pictures of the Dai-ichi emergency centre. The people there are sleeping/resting/eating while dressed in their tyvek suits.

 

[zapperzero]

Does somebody has an idea of what Tepco means when they consider the use of these "existing tubes" to try to cool the reactor N°1? Which tubes are these?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_18.html

Making new holes in the RPV to install piping would be difficult.

 

[jlduh]

I promised to refrain from speculation so, just facts. Among past posts in this thread you will find some linking to pictures of the Dai-ichi emergency centre. The people there are sleeping/resting/eating while dressed in their tyvek suits.

An article describing the situation, and a picture of what you describe (they eat with their suits...). No more a plant but a "battlefield" as one worker describes it...

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/04/20/2357627/doctor-warns-japan-nuke-workers.html

"They have struggled for a month. But they haven't gotten any rest," he said.
"TEPCO and the government don't think about them. The workers must do a good job, but they do not have any support," he said.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/04/20/2357627/doctor-warns-japan-nuke-workers.html#ixzz1LQjG0NFE

http://www.netimago.com/image_196912.html

 

[rowmag]

Don't you hate it when that happens? I now usually do crtl-a and then crtl-c before I press 'submit.' That way, if I have timed out, the reply is saved to my clipboard.

Yes, thanks, I will do that from now on.

 

[jlduh]

Technical details on ventilation installation at reactor N°1 building:

http://jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco&k=2011050300567

 

[RealWing]

If this is a live feed - then what is burning?

http://news.tbs.co.jp/newsi_sp/youtube_live/

 

[Danuta]

Ohh my god. radioactive contamination and no showers. Guys, this is officially far, far more messed up than Chernobyl. This is just terrible.
(It is hard to imagine how terrible it is, though, and easy to understate)

They have showers but not enough of them and they are not being used in frequency they are supposed to. More are going to be built in May. "Messed up" is putting it mildly.

"Workers other than senior TEPCO officials work four days on and take two days off. During the four-day work period, they are unable to take showers or bathe although they sweat heavily in radiation-protective gear, the doctor said. ---Kyodo news

 

[imandylite]

If this is a live feed - then what is burning?

http://news.tbs.co.jp/newsi_sp/youtube_live/

Full Live Feed:

http://www.youtube.com/user/tbsnewsi?feature=feedlss#p/l/-ZPYlazljME"

Has full sound as well (nice waves crashing on shoreline and birds squawking as they fly by)

But - whenever something interesting occurs the live feed fails! Oh, and don't confuse failure with poor visibility - a problem I have seen with some commentators on some sites.

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

The circled thing on that photo looks like a piece of steel framework.

I think the poster was referring to the yellow thing that is barely visible behind the twisted steel framework.

The damage to that building does suggest that something small but heavy smashed obliquely through the roof and south wall, and came to rest right where that hypothetical yellowish thing seems to be.

 

[Jim Lagerfeld]

Does somebody has an idea of what Tepco means when they consider the use of these "existing tubes" to try to cool the reactor N°1? Which tubes are these?

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/04_18.html

Apologies if this has already been posted but here is TEPCO's plan to get reactor number one under control, with timeline and diagrams showing how they plan to recalibrate the sensors and jury-rig a closed loop cooling line.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110504e13.pdf"

 

[zapperzero]

In the TBS/JNN webcam feed
http://www.youtube.com/user/tbsnewsi?feature=feedlss#p/l/-ZPYlazljME
the right-most building appears to me to be leaning towards the right side. I added guidelines to a cropped screen cap to illustrate. The building next to it seems reasonably straight.

Was it always like this (post-explosion)? Am I seeing things?

 

[AntonL]

In the TBS/JNN webcam feed
http://www.youtube.com/user/tbsnewsi?feature=feedlss#p/l/-ZPYlazljME
the right-most building appears to me to be leaning towards the right side. I added guidelines to a cropped screen cap to illustrate. The building next to it seems reasonably straight.

Was it always like this (post-explosion)? Am I seeing things?

This livecam is some 13 km away from fukushima, very strong telephoto lens is used and these do tend to showhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distortion_(optics)" . You have just re-discovered the pin-cushion phenomena. Once you factor away the distortion of the lens then you can make a judgement on the verticality of the building,

 

[Susudake]

Greetings all. I've been following this forum for a couple of weeks, and now that I've signed up I'd first like to thank all of you who are devoting time and sharing your expertise with us non-scientists. This seems to be about the only active forum keeping up to date on developments. Even theoildrum.com has dropped the subject.

I have little technical expertise but do have many years experience living in Japan, so I hope to be able to raise some awareness on the cultural/social side of things. That will mean more criticism than praise, for though I love many things about Japan this crisis is exposing--as it would anywhere--the weaknesses and faults of Japanese society.
My motivation isn't to bash Japan but to--I hope--clarify misunderstandings, since, IMO, few if any countries in the world are more "familiar" yet less understood than Japan. It's a continually perplexing place so those of you with actual experience living here (sorry to delineate but so many outsiders have huge misconceptions about Japan) feel free to correct my assumptions/observations.

To begin with the issue of the workers. Yes, it's deplorable how they're being treated, but not a surprise. Japanese society is so hierarchical that worker bees are expected to be pretty much just that--work their stingers off, and not complain regardless of what they have to deal with. The group is everything, so people raised like this put themselves last; but at a certain point, the instinct for self-preservation kicks in, and then finally they'll resist further exploitation. In this sense, there's a kind of brutality, a lack of compassion for individuals, that Westerners can find hard to comprehend.

Speaking to the bigger picture, my opinion after watching this unfold over the last two months is that this is a gigantic mess that's being mostly papered over. IMO leaving it up to the Japanese government and TEPCO to take care of is a huge mistake; their no. 1 goal is managing damage not to the plant but to their reptutations, political futures, and bottom line. So far no one on the international stage is willing or able to make a call for international intervention, but this is exactly what's necessary IMO (and I know that opinion is worth about .0000001 yen).

And most of the Japanese populace (also long-term foreign residents) seem too drugged up on hi-tech toys to realize or perhaps care about the scary potentialities at play right now. I see that around me this very moment as I type (though I will be leaving soon, better to be labelled a "flyjin" than be a down-winder if things go south--or south west as the case may be).

It's good to see other Japanese speakers/readers helping out with translations, as time permits I'll contribute there what i can.

Though this is a science-oriented forum, IMO the social/cultural aspects of this or any science "project" are inseparable from the technical aspects, and so my hope is that by some of us contributing what insights we can about the former we might speed progress towards the necessary technical solutions. I hope the scientists here and elsewhere will get active politically---in the sense of making their voices heard--because without a better political response to this I hope for the best but fear the worst.

Pardon my long rambling first post, I will try make subsequent ones more concise and coherent.

 

[rowmag]

Welcome aboard, Susudake. (Though I'm a relative newbie here myself.)
Glad to see more local residents signing up.

Just as a note, so you don't accidentally get your posts pulled, this thread is for technical discussions. There are a couple of other threads devoted to political and management aspects:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=486089
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=493101

Looking forward to your input!

 

[AntonL]

Apologies if this has already been posted but here is TEPCO's plan to get reactor number one under control, with timeline and diagrams showing how they plan to recalibrate the sensors and jury-rig a closed loop cooling line.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110504e13.pdf"

The one thing I do not understand why men are put at risk to install a close loop air scrubbing system into unit 1. Surely the additional radiation released to the environment by venting and purging unit 1 to atmosphere is minimal compared to that what is released by units 2, 3 and 4 on a continues basis. Is this a case of the regulators and overseers being too zealous and not practical?

 

[jim hardy]

I think the poster was referring to the yellow thing that is barely visible behind the twisted steel framework.

The damage to that building does suggest that something small but heavy smashed obliquely through the roof and south wall, and came to rest right where that hypothetical yellowish thing seems to be.

found video of a fire truck spraying unit 3, that little building is right next to the car they filmed from. Yellow object looks like a concrete wall inside the tin roofed building.
i think it's same video where another post showed u3 refueling crane , in rubble on north side of unit and it's pretty clear.

sorry for the board clutter.

 

[TCups]

Tcup might be able to explain that. There is a weight factor of (0.05) (might have change) for the Thyroids. but it still does not do the math

Not aware of a specific conversion factor for infants vs. adults. In the fetus and infants, before complete development of the nervous system, the biological effects of hypothyroidism are much more severe than in adults. If thyroid hormone is not present, neurological and physiological development is severely retarded, resulting in cretinism.

(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism )

Also, the volume of thyroid tissue at risk in the fetus or infant would be much less than in an adult, so, the amount of absorbed radiation (ie, I-131) needed to induce significant hypothyroidism would be, relative to an adult, much less.

 

[rowmag]

Updated sub-drain isotope measurements through 5/3:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/cc/press/betu11_j/images/110503o.pdf

(For criticality-watch fans.)

 

[intric8]

Greetings all. I have a very simple question that is yet to be addressed: Is all the smoke, steam or whatever the composition of the discharge we are viewing on the live feed normal as of late? Seems like it may simply be a product of ongoing and recently increased water injection efforts.

 

[etudiant]

The one thing I do not understand why men are put at risk to install a close loop air scrubbing system into unit 1. Surely the additional radiation released to the environment by venting and purging unit 1 to atmosphere is minimal compared to that what is released by units 2, 3 and 4 on a continues basis. Is this a case of the regulators and overseers being too zealous and not practical?

Presumably the effort on reactor 1 is expected to be a template for the next two.
So it may make sense to do some unnecessary work to debug the process under less hazardous conditions.

More surprising to me is the serial nature of this effort. The site has 7 problem elements, yet there is no simultaneous work going on. Just some desultory debris clearance and some SFP water injections, with the work focused on putting up water tanks and a water decontamination facility.
The actual problems are left to themselves. TEPCO now has this plan to set up recirculating cooling for reactor 1, hopefully completed about six week from now, three months after the tsunami.
At this pace, the site will still be emitting a year from now. It does not seem there is that much determination to halt the radioactive poisoning of Japan as a matter of highest priority.

 

[ernal_student]

Welcome aboard, Susudake. (Though I'm a relative newbie here myself.)
Glad to see more local residents signing up.

Just as a note, so you don't get your posts get pulled, this thread is for technical discussions. There are a couple of other threads devoted to political and management aspects:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=486089
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=493101

Looking forward to your input!

Dear moderators. I share Susudake's general assessment of the situation (I am Japanese but fortunately live in a place that is usually not downwind from the power plant). Although you may not find much about the matter Susudake mentioned in our media, there are many of us who are well-aware of the negative political dimension of the situation in Fukusima, and it is on our minds always.

May I ask the moderators for their understanding? If a post is considered out of line in this thread but fits the other related threads, may I ask the moderators to move it there rather than delete it? There was a Japanese contributor before who withdrew from the discussion because some of his posts were deleted, and although I should never exaggerate the importance of our participation, I have the impression that more than once people were calling for Japanese voices.

I appreciate the moderators' difficult work (volunteer work to boot), and hope to be able to contribute one day.

 

[MadderDoc]

<..> Can somebody please confirm, that this video is about U4?

It appears to me to be a jumbled mix. Like if someone has visited the showroom in one unit, looking in monitors of perhaps other units plus hand out material. There are bits here and there which to me looks like something from unit 5. Somewhere in the middle there is a sequence showing what does appear to be the refueling bridge/fhm of unit 4, apparently during its installation or overhaul.

 

[Azby]

Not aware of a specific conversion factor for infants vs. adults. In the fetus and infants, before complete development of the nervous system, the biological effects of hypothyroidism are much more severe than in adults. If thyroid hormone is not present, neurological and physiological development is severely retarded, resulting in cretinism.

(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism )

Also, the volume of thyroid tissue at risk in the fetus or infant would be much less than in an adult, so, the amount of absorbed radiation (ie, I-131) needed to induce significant hypothyroidism would be, relative to an adult, much less.

Thanks, TCups. I guess what has me puzzled is that in areas on the NSC map which show an estimated cumulative external dose for adults of 1mSv, the estimated internal thyroid dose for 1yr olds is estimated at 100mSv. Most of what I have read suggests however that, despite bioaccumulation and possibly higher relative health risk, internal doses themselves will almost always be significantly less than external doses. The NSC estimates are based on constant outdoor exposure between 3/12 and 3/24, reduced to 1/4 -1/10 if the person remained indoors. I wish the statements referenced the relevant standards (i.e. BEIR VII, ICRP, etc) on which the estimations were made. Do you think these estimates are reasonable, in a ball-park way at least?

 

[MadderDoc]

Greetings all. I have a very simple question that is yet to be addressed: Is all the smoke, steam or whatever the composition of the discharge we are viewing on the live feed normal as of late? Seems like it may simply be a product of ongoing and recently increased water injection efforts.

Over the last many days it has become 'normal' for units 3-4 to give off in varying amounts what appears to be mainly steam. Unit 4 from the sfp, unit 3 from the reactor top, and unit 2 mainly from the blowout window facing east. There is nothing I've seen that would indicate drastic untoward changes i.e. those fires people have been talking about. I think the observations of fires are more an effect of inexperience with a newly encountered stream and lack of knowledge of what one is looking at than anything else.

 

[triumph61]

found video of a fire truck spraying unit 3, that little building is right next to the car they filmed from. Yellow object looks like a concrete wall inside the tin roofed building.
i think it's same video where another post showed u3 refueling crane , in rubble on north side of unit and it's pretty clear.

sorry for the board clutter.

The link of the Video, please.

I only found a Video that little building is LEFT to the car

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

In the TBS/JNN webcam feed
http://www.youtube.com/user/tbsnewsi?feature=feedlss#p/l/-ZPYlazljME
the right-most building appears to me to be leaning towards the right side.

To me it seems that the camera is not level, so everyting in the image is rotated a couple of degrees clockwise. The tops of the buildings too are tilted.

PS. I've finally updated my plots of Fukushima reactor variables, up to NISA release 125 (04/may 12:00)
http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/plots/cur/Main.html

The temperature in the drywell of #3 went up 50 degrees, to nearly 200C, on may 2. Then there were two eleases without temperature data. Then on may 5 its is still 200C.

 

[triumph61]

I think the poster was referring to the yellow thing that is barely visible behind the twisted steel framework.

The damage to that building does suggest that something small but heavy smashed obliquely through the roof and south wall, and came to rest right where that hypothetical yellowish thing seems to be.

A lot of yellow "things" are seen on pictures. I have marked them. Please zoom and scroll.