Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[Borek]

So http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFNvYA7731o" is a wrong interpretation?

I mean (while I don't claim that this is correct because of the lack of knowledge) most of the images in "suspicious" places have those artifacts (i.e. inside the factory), while images looking elsewhere (i.e. distant, looking at the sea, outside, etc) don't. If true then those can also be burned pixels from previous shots and may not be the result of the current shot.

OK, there was a misunderstanding. You wrote about "overexposed spots" and I thought what you mean is that some objects on the picture look overexposed, while you meant something that I would describe as similar to "hot pixels". I can easily imagine these can be effect of radiation. It would be interesting to try to estimate level of radiation that could give effect similar to that seen on the picture - but it doesn't have to be high. I have no doubt about elevated level of radiation near or in buildings, but it is intensity that is important, not just the fact.

 

[v13]

OK, there was a misunderstanding. You wrote about "overexposed spots" and I thought what you mean is that some objects on the picture look overexposed, while you meant something that I would describe as similar to "hot pixels". I can easily imagine these can be effect of radiation. It would be interesting to try to estimate level of radiation that could give effect similar to that seen on the picture - but it doesn't have to be high. I have no doubt about elevated level of radiation near or in buildings, but it is intensity that is important, not just the fact.

FWIW, I'm not the one that wrote the post you replied (i.e. the post about overexposure) :-)

 

[mscharisma]

Whoa, NISA comes clean about isotope ingestion resulting in considerable exposures to thousands who were involved early on at Dai-ichi.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110521p2a00m0na021000c.html

Some dose calculations these poor guys got, or are expected to get:

http://www.falloutphilippines.blogspot.com/

I always suspected that they were understating potential exposures, but i still find this a bit unsettling. Information is constantly subject to change out of the Japanese agencies, and most often, for the worse.

While I cannot find the article anymore (I had saved the text because I found it very alarming and had questions about it), Kyodo had reported the following around the 21st of March, which now fits nicely into the picture:

“A radiation level of 100,000 counts per minute will be introduced as a new standard for decontamination, up from 6,000 counts per minute, the government said, adding that raising the bar will not endanger health. The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the decision was made based on advice from domestic nuclear experts and the International Atomic Energy Agency. As the number of people who want to undergo radiation checks has surged, a lack of staff and equipment for the tests and decontamination was feared.”

Gives the impression that NISA may have anticipated this already mid to late March or potentially even known about it happening.

 

[SteveElbows]

I'm wondering what is the material in that picture that is the source of that much radiation, and how did it get from inside the reactor (or fuel pond) to that location. Is it just me, or does it seem like the explosions caused radioactive fuel to be ejected? If it's not fuel, what could it be?

I would suspect that there are a number of pieces of equipment from the service floor level that end up rather radioactive, but I have absolutely no idea what level of radiation readings we should expect from them.

Certainly this pile of rubble has long interested me, it was previous labelled as up to 300mSv on the site radiation map, I guess they got closer to part of it this time. Anyway one reason why this pile of rubble always interested me is because it would be one of a number of locations where we might figure the fuel handling mechanism may end up under certain conditions. Unfortunately the pictures we previously had of this rubble were in no way detailed enough to make any useful comments about this rubble, the only thing I could previously say about the rubble over a slightly wider part of this site is that some parts of wall and roof could be seen.

Now I don't think I should read too much into the small green parts that can be seen on these new photos, but I would be keen to know more about the object shown in the attached photo. I am trying to establish whether there is a chance that this could be the telescopic part of the fuel bridge, with the idea that the bridge, or part of it, may have landed upside-down in this area. Even if we cannot say that this object may fit the bill, can anybody comment on how radioactive we may expect this part to be?

I am pretty sure there are quite a number of other objects that this bit of debris could be, so I am not exactly convinced of this theory myself, just throwing it out there.

 

[razzz]

While I cannot find the article anymore (I had saved the text because I found it very alarming and had questions about it), Kyodo had reported the following around the 21st of March, which now fits nicely into the picture:

“A radiation level of 100,000 counts per minute will be introduced as a new standard for decontamination, up from 6,000 counts per minute, the government said, adding that raising the bar will not endanger health. The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the decision was made based on advice from domestic nuclear experts and the International Atomic Energy Agency. As the number of people who want to undergo radiation checks has surged, a lack of staff and equipment for the tests and decontamination was feared.”

Gives the impression that NISA may have anticipated this already mid to late March or potentially even known about it happening.

Greater levels of radioactive materials found due to rain
TOKYO, March 22, Kyodo

 

[SteveElbows]

I am trying to establish whether there is a chance that this could be the telescopic part of the fuel bridge, with the idea that the bridge, or part of it, may have landed upside-down in this area. Even if we cannot say that this object may fit the bill, can anybody comment on how radioactive we may expect this part to be?

I think for now I will have to conclude that its more likely to be a bit of furniture, eg a pole that rope is hung from just like the ones int he foreground. But its hard to be sure, perhaps I would expect a part of the fuel telescopic arm to have a wider diameter than this, but judging exact scale of things on the photo is not too easy. In any case I haven't even seen much in the way of detailed images of this bit of equipment in normal setting, at least not the lower portion of it.

 

[mscharisma]

Greater levels of radioactive materials found due to rain
TOKYO, March 22, Kyodo

Thank you for finding it. What strikes me as odd is the close relation of times. March 22 per Kyodo: level for mandatory decontamination will be raised from 6,000 to 100,000 cpm for the general public.
Per the Mainichi Daily News:
"The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said it received the data from power companies across the country that measured the workers' internal exposure to radiation with "whole-body counters" and recorded levels of 1,500 counts per minute (cpm) or higher. In 1,193 cases, workers had internal exposure to radiation of more than 10,000 cpm. Those workers had apparently returned to their homes near the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant or had moved to other nuclear power plants from the Fukushima No. 1 and 2 nuclear power plants. [my comment: Unfortunately not clarification of time frames]

According to Kakizawa, one worker at the Shika Nuclear Power Plant operated by Hokuriku Electric Power Co. in Ishikawa Prefecture returned to his home in Kawauchi, Fukushima Prefecture, on March 13 and stayed there for several hours. He then stayed in Koriyama in the prefecture with his family for one night before moving out of Fukushima. On March 23, he underwent a test at the Shika Nuclear Power Plant that showed his internal exposure to radiation had reached 5,000 cpm. He was thus instructed by the company to remain on standby. The radiation reading dropped below 1,500 cpm two days later, and then he returned to work."

 

[StrangeBeauty]

Via ex-skf:
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/05/ministry-of-education-quietly-released.html

Some WSPEEDI info released:

http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaijohou/syousai/1305747.htm

"When Professor Kosako resigned from his post as PM special advisor in protest of the 20 millisievert/year radiation limit for school children, he called for the release of WSPEEDI"

This is some of that data.

"One of the maps, "Organ dose of I-131 for infant [less than a year old]", shows that the extremely high dose along the coast of Fukushima, with the dose in the area around Fukushima I Nuke Plant over 500 millisieverts (deep pink color)."

This only covers I-131, not Cs or other nuclides.

 

[MadderDoc]

I can't recognize anything on the picture... But it's still very interesting. There are several 'overexposed' spots across the picture - are those traces of radiation hitting the CCD chip?

Fully exposed in the photo of the 1Sv/h debris location are as far as I can see, only the expected highlights from metal surface reflexes. As regards seeing traces of radiation hitting the CCD this photo of workers at ground floor of unit 2 would seem more promising:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110519_3_4.jpg

 

[MadderDoc]

Lens in a simple camera is not able to collimate neither of the possible radiation types, if anything, whole image should be overexposed the same way.

I think collimation is beside the point, a ccd chip simply registers the radiation incident on its light sensitive layer array, see here for a practical use of the principle:
http://bqscan.com

 

[Rive]

OK, there was a misunderstanding. You wrote about "overexposed spots" and I thought what you mean is that some objects on the picture look overexposed, while you meant something that I would describe as similar to "hot pixels". I can easily imagine these can be effect of radiation.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the 'hot pixels', not objects. Thanks for the reply.

 

[DSamsom]

Via ex-skf:
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/05/ministry-of-education-quietly-released.html

Some WSPEEDI info released:

http://www.mext.go.jp/a_menu/saigaijohou/syousai/1305747.htm

"When Professor Kosako resigned from his post as PM special advisor in protest of the 20 millisievert/year radiation limit for school children, he called for the release of WSPEEDI"

This is some of that data.

"One of the maps, "Organ dose of I-131 for infant [less than a year old]", shows that the extremely high dose along the coast of Fukushima, with the dose in the area around Fukushima I Nuke Plant over 500 millisieverts (deep pink color)."

This only covers I-131, not Cs or other nuclides.

Interesting figures. The 500 mSv however could be misleading. The title of the map is "organ dose of I-131". Assuming they mean the organ thyroid gland, which has a weighting-factor of 0,05, the resulting effective dose would be 25 mSv.

 

[Uagrepus]

The most of these pixel errors I saw near Unit 2 (please zoom into the darker areas). Good to hear, radiation can't be the reason:

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/4963/no2fallout.th.jpg

Hmm, just reflections from water droplets?

 

[MadderDoc]

<..>I am trying to establish whether there is a chance that this could be the telescopic part of the fuel bridge, with the idea that the bridge, or part of it, may have landed upside-down in this area. Even if we cannot say that this object may fit the bill, can anybody comment on how radioactive we may expect this part to be?

I am pretty sure there are quite a number of other objects that this bit of debris could be, so I am not exactly convinced of this theory myself, just throwing it out there.

That's probably the problem with the fuel handling mast, on one hand it has a peculiar appearance, otoh it does not have very distinct features suitable for ID. I reckon if you could examine the full circumference of this object, its being part of the mast would be determined by finding guiding grooves along its length.

Re the fhm of unit 3 and its whereabouts, from looking at the most recent photos, particularly after the leaning stairway concrete structure at the SW corner fell, 'something big' appears to have been caught up in the remains of the metal framework up on the S/SW part of the service floor. Excruciatingly we do not have better photos of this section of the roof.

 

[Borek]

Hmm, just reflections from water droplets?

Nope. Take it from someone taking pictures for almost 40 years.

 

[Rive]

So he had the test 10 days after he had been to the area and it was that high. The half life for iodine is like 8 days right? two days later he was down to 1500 and went back to work. 10 days is time for one halflife before he was tested...but somehow the math isn't working for me. Can someone explain this??

It sounds like some amateurism mixed with bad luck?

Possibly it was his skin what was contaminated, and not in site but at home or during traveling.
Then there was no second test after an external decontamination when the first test revealed the problem.
And then he went home and taken a shower.

Maybe.

 

[etudiant]

Interesting figures. The 500 mSv however could be misleading. The title of the map is "organ dose of I-131". Assuming they mean the organ thyroid gland, which has a weighting-factor of 0,05, the resulting effective dose would be 25 mSv.

Unfortunately, I do not read Japanese, so the writeup eludes me.
However, one of the commentators on EX-SKF noted that the data released did not reflect the actual source terms, but rather an assumption of initial emissions.
So these results may not represent reality at all.
Can anyone who actually reads Japanese help clarify whether these are actual measurements or merely estimates from a simulation?

 

[Uagrepus]

Nope. Take it from someone taking pictures for almost 40 years.

Thanks. I came to that idea watching a remarkable aerial and what looks like prism effects there (near the coast line):

http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichirec_march17_2011_dg.jpg

 

[zapperzero]

Evening story time. Back when I was living behind the Iron Curtain, some medical doctors in my country, after Chernobyl, put paid to the gov't story ("all is well, no fallout here, blah blah") by just exposing radiological film to dust in the air, plants or even small animals.

Auto-radiography it's called. I saw one of those films. It had been exposed to just outside air, from a first floor window, for a minute or so. It looked badly speckled, almost foggy, there were a couple streaks across too, from betas I guess, or maybe cosmic rays or whatever.

But I don't see this thing with the cameras, now, as a source of very much useful info. Yea, the plant is hot. We knew that. It's hotter some places than others. We knew that too, we have nice rad-maps from TEPCO. The sensors get triggered by gamma or beta or whatever. It's impressive, but so what?

Later edit: I just took a look at bqscan and the EXIF info in that photo. No luck, the particular camera model isn't supported :(

 

[zapperzero]

Interesting figures. The 500 mSv however could be misleading. The title of the map is "organ dose of I-131". Assuming they mean the organ thyroid gland, which has a weighting-factor of 0,05, the resulting effective dose would be 25 mSv.

It's interesting and also near-useless... the source term is assumed, not known...

EDIT: That's how I read the google-translated docs. I do not speak or read Japanese, though I'm beginning to think it may be worth investing the time to learn at least a bit, after all this crisis won't be over in less than a year.

 

[zapperzero]

Thanks. I came to that idea watching a remarkable aerial and what looks like prism effects there (near the coast line):

http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichirec_march17_2011_dg.jpg

Hey ho... when you say prism effects you mean the oddly coloured diffuse splotches in the water? What abot the two closely spaced shiny/white spots, violet on the edges, on the roof of #1 turbine hall? There's another similar one on the road in front of #4. Specular?

 

[havemercy]

Could anyone here explain what is occurring regarding the schoolchildren ? I read that some political men has quitted because of the limits raised by the ministry of eductation, that some new maps has been released with level of radioactivity of certain elements but nut all ? Could it be also possible to link the level of radioactivity of the maps with the "normal" annual limits for children ? Many thanks in advance. :)

 

[robinson]

I would suspect that there are a number of pieces of equipment from the service floor level that end up rather radioactive, but I have absolutely no idea what level of radiation readings we should expect from them.

That's what I am wondering. Does metal equipment outside the reactor core, or outside spent fuel ponds ever get that radioactive? I find it hard to believe that anything inside the reactor building has that level of radiation that isn't covered with a lot of water, or inside the containment.

Because how could anyone work around equipment that hot? I don't know if it's secrecy or my ignorance, but there seems to be very little published or commonly known about radiation levels inside a nuclear power plant. Or a spent fuel pond.

I'm pretty sure nothing in the workspace in a normal plant is 1 Sv/hr

 

[robinson]

As for the photo questions, it would have to be gamma rays causing any effect on the electronics themselves. Right? Alpha and Beta won't effect the inside of a cameras sensors.

 

[MiceAndMen]

There are some new images of the Megafloat arriving here:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html"

I don't understand why they're so enamored with the Megafloat barge. They seem to take every opportunity to keep everyone updated on where it is, at all times. It is perhaps the singularly most uninteresting piece of equipment in the cleanup operation.

 

[MiceAndMen]

Regarding the Gamma Camera images at http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html

Does the fact that the Gamma Camera registers significantly on the (broken?) ventilating ducts imply that the electrically powered HVAC fans were actively circulating radioactive material before they lost electric power on 11 March?

 

[zapperzero]

That's what I am wondering. Does metal equipment outside the reactor core, or outside spent fuel ponds ever get that radioactive?
I'm pretty sure nothing in the workspace in a normal plant is 1 Sv/hr

The easiest explanation is there's some steel thing with a fresh thick coat of radioactive cesium. Could be anything, really, although spent fuel should be much hotter.

Does equipment get that hot? Hmm... the cooling loop is pretty hot with very short-lived stuff, but may also get contaminated with all sorts of activated junk from the reactor.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that turbine blades are rad waste by the time they're done with them.

 

[zapperzero]

I don't understand why they're so enamored with the Megafloat barge. They seem to take every opportunity to keep everyone updated on where it is, at all times. It is perhaps the singularly most uninteresting piece of equipment in the cleanup operation.

I think you've just answered your own question there. TEPCO PR and Corp Relations at work, I'm afraid. Barge updates are a cheap, truthful way of saying "look, there's progress being made" every so often. Good news are scarce, they make the most of what they have.

Look up their first sitreps. A lot of things were happening in the first three days. Yet, TEPCO PR were just re-releasing the same stale info every two hours or so. When they stated "no changes from previous release", even when the situation had in fact changed, well, they meant there was no change in the content of the press release, and they were saying that, and it's true, sort of. The kind of true that stands up in court, just barely, if you have the best lawyers money can buy.

 

[Astronuc]

That's what I am wondering. Does metal equipment outside the reactor core, or outside spent fuel ponds ever get that radioactive? I find it hard to believe that anything inside the reactor building has that level of radiation that isn't covered with a lot of water, or inside the containment.

Because how could anyone work around equipment that hot? I don't know if it's secrecy or my ignorance, but there seems to be very little published or commonly known about radiation levels inside a nuclear power plant. Or a spent fuel pond.

I'm pretty sure nothing in the workspace in a normal plant is 1 Sv/hr

Basically, anything in or adjacent to the core gets activated, i.e., becomes radioactive.

Clearly the fuel becomes radioactive. The fission produces produces fission products, most of which decay by beta emission. In the neutron flux, some uranium is transmuted to transuranics. Core internals, most of which use stainless steel become activated, as does the steel core support plate, baffle and upper guide structure. Corrosion products that deposit on the fuel are also activated.

Materials outside of the core, really ouside of the neutron flux do not become activated, but some of the corrosion products do deposit on surfaces of piping outside of the core and RPV. The reactor coolant system or recirculating water system does have resin filters that are design to collect corrosion products. This is the reactor water cleanup (RWCU) system.

If fuel fails, i.e., cladding is breached, the some fission products, primarily Xe, Kr, I will readily escape into the coolant and travel around the primary system. In the case of a BWR, they travel into the turbine. Some will exit in an off-gas treatment system where filter catch radioactive gases or their decay products. If the breach is severe, then some loss of fuel and soluble fission product into the coolant will occur. Then the RWCU will collect some, and some will collected on the condensate polishers, which are also resin filters designed to remove impurities/corrosion products from the water.

 

[Most Curious]

Excellent Astronuc! Thank you.

I have heard Cobalt is one of the nasties that accumulates in piping that carries coolant. Any comment?

 

[Astronuc]

Excellent Astronuc! Thank you.

I have heard Cobalt is one of the nasties that accumulates in piping that carries coolant. Any comment?

Yes - over the last two decades, the industry has taken steps to reduce Co-58 and Co-60 in the reactor coolant. The use of Inconel in the core has been minimized and the compositions of stainless steels, principally SS304 and 316, have had restrictions on Co content in order to mitigate Co-60. Co-58 comes from an n,p reaction with Ni-58.

Zn has been added to primary water chemistries to reduce Ni dissolution in order to reduce deterioration of stainless steels and Inconels, and reduce Ni deposition in the core.

Any cobalt-bearing alloys have been eliminated from cooling systems connected to the reactor system.

 

[Atomfritz]

There is some interesting green material in the area that looks to be broken metal of some sort.[/i]

I think the green stuff scattered on photo is no metal. You would see the metal exposed at the breaks, but it is colored uniformly. Looks like plastic to me.

I read somewhere in this thread that functional groups in nuclear plants are "color coded", like the "FHM green".

But I doubt that a plastic box would be used in hot areas, for various reasons. It could just be a trash can been hit in the yard by the explosion. (just my unqualified 2 cents)

Certainly this pile of rubble has long interested me, it was previous labelled as up to 300mSv on the site radiation map, I guess they got closer to part of it this time.

I am also curious. What could be radiating so much there?

I'm pretty sure nothing in the workspace in a normal plant is 1 Sv/hr

Certainly this is not caused by a screwdriver.

So here my layman's analysis of the image and my thoughts and questions:



http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/5558/reactorstain2.jpg

(Edit 2: re-uploaded smaller sized pic, see full resolution pic here: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/reactorstain.jpg )


What could be this reddish stuff that appears to spread like pigment?

Any idea?

Edit: This stuff also could be bricks. But I doubt that bricks of apparently very low quality are used in NPPs... So I suppose this could be something other... but what?

 

[Azby]

Interesting figures. The 500 mSv however could be misleading. The title of the map is "organ dose of I-131". Assuming they mean the organ thyroid gland, which has a weighting-factor of 0,05, the resulting effective dose would be 25 mSv.

Yes, this had me scratching my head a few weeks ago. It's not clear what weighting/conversion factors they are using.
As for whether this data reflects actual source term measurements, the answer is no. These are estimates produced by measuring actual dust and wind direction, and the exrapolating back. The data is not exactly worthless, but is difficult to place a high degree of confidence in. We need more information about how it was calculated, what the assumptions were, whether the estimates over time were generated by continuous radiation measurements during the time frame or assuming a constant release for the entire period and interating wind measurements, etc..

As has been the case most of the time, the data is suggestive enough to cause great anxiety among laypeople but not complete enough to allow outside experts to make sound conclusions.

The attached files are dated for March 23-April 25. Two show estimates for adult doses for all nuclides; the one for infant doses shows I-131 only, and explans the reverse-extrapolation and says "trial calculation." (I have renamed the files)

 

[maddog1964]

That's what I am wondering. Does metal equipment outside the reactor core, or outside spent fuel ponds ever get that radioactive? I find it hard to believe that anything inside the reactor building has that level of radiation that isn't covered with a lot of water, or inside the containment.

Because how could anyone work around equipment that hot? I don't know if it's secrecy or my ignorance, but there seems to be very little published or commonly known about radiation levels inside a nuclear power plant. Or a spent fuel pond.

I'm pretty sure nothing in the workspace in a normal plant is 1 Sv/hr

Robinson, Astronuc description is very though, I think everyone trying to figure the radiation and explosions would be better able to analize both sitituations if they were not just concentrating on the fuel as the only place that "particulates" (not sure that would be the correct technical term") of the radiation would be (It is the main sourcre).

Have been studying bld#1 equipment (japan) and drawings from a US plant. After many hours and still not enought research... the systems are quite complex and "appear" to go to many of the buildings... not just the reactor containment bld. One example is the off gassing system.. its job is to "scrubb" the air of the radiation. There are several other systems that "clean" the SFP water of by-products. As Astronic desribed some go through the core. But what level of contamination is carried along I do not know and have been looking for help on in this area.

Pipe will collect product on the inner wall, if its Radioactive fluid its my understanding that the pipe wall will absore it.. I belive, but am still working on the system that is used to minimize this (BUT have not finished)
hope this helps...

I have been quite surprised at the building construction and very numerous components that are exposed to at least a min. low level radiation. They usually would not have a tank inside a concrete room if there was no "danger associated" with it (again, some of this infor is from a plant here in the US.) but if only 50% of the systems and components were applipicable to the Japanese plant it would explain alot.

The diagrams you see on the tepco and news articles only show the "main flow" they are much more complex, it will take me quite some time to link all the drawings together. Then there is the variables as to what japan has and does not. Most of these drawings are from 84 and some in the 90's

I guess the question that remains is how "Hot" do these resin beds/sludge tanks and many filters get... that part is not my field. The equipment and components are! And What is now debrie around the plant.. you can clearly see that some items seem to have left some of the buildings... were they came from and were they are now is the ??

 

[StrangeBeauty]

Edit: UPDATE: This story at NHK says they found 1000 mSv/h debris on Friday south of unit 3. That's probably what's shown in the pictures above. http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/22_07.html

Also, I've been wondering about the possibility that this is another reading that's actually >1000 mSv, not just "1000 mSv". It would be based on the upper limit of the measuring device, and it seems that a lot of their devices top out at 1 Sv.

Also I see they are finally trying to get readings directly above the reactor buildings:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/23_11.html

To take the measurements, it is using a small instrument attached to the arm of a crane pump that's about 50 meters tall.

On Sunday afternoon, for about 20 minutes, the instrument measured radioactive substances in the air about 5 to 10 meters above the Number 1 reactor building. TEPCO will disclose the results of the analysis as early as Tuesday.

Much will depend on wind direction and strength in addition to the instrument placement. I'd like to see a measurement taken directly in the steam emanating from the building.