Language fails that make you angry

[vela]

I realize they may be listed in a certain order, but does MW say if the order is meaningful?

I've been looking through MW's info, and it avoids saying anything about the order. Nevertheless, it does list "koo-pon" first in the text. The American Heritage Dictionary also does, and it explicitly says that it lists the most common pronunciation first.

 

[Evo]

I've been looking through MW's info, and it avoids saying anything about the order. Nevertheless, it does list "koo-pon" first in the text. The American Heritage Dictionary also does, and it explicitly says that it lists the most common pronunciation first.

Here is where I originally went.

Origin:
1815–25; < French; Old French colpon piece cut off, equivalent to colp ( er ) to cut ( see cope1 ) + -on noun suffix

Related forms
cou·pon·less, adjective

Pronunciation note

Coupon, related to cope and coup, is of French origin. It has developed an American pronunciation variant  /ˈkyupɒn/ Show Spelled[kyoo-pon] Show IPA with an unhistorical y -sound not justified by the spelling. This pronunciation is used by educated speakers and is well-established as perfectly standard, although it is sometimes criticized.

I became a bit disgruntled with a number of online dictionaries when many of them changed the pronunciation of ratatouille to match the mispronunciation of the Pixar mouse movie.

Right: ra ta tuy

Wrong: rat-a-too-ee

And of all <shudder> places to find someone French that knows how to pronounce it.

Being French, I had a big laugh at looking all the answers. Sorry, I shouldn't...
Anyway I will try (and make a laughing joke of myself !)
The two "a" must be pronounced the same way as in "rat"
The last one is more difficult : the sound is like "toy" with a "u" (as in "blue") instead of the "o" ; got it ?
Try it
Ra Ta Tuy
Don't worry for the "R" : in some French regions, "R" is pronounced like in English...
Bon appétit : the "ratatouille" is a very nice stew of aubergines, courgettes, tomatoes, onions and garlic from Provence.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070809080652AAl84qe

 

[Fredrik]

But the primary is here.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?coupon01.wav=coupon

The pronunciation koo pon is taken from the French.

Why are you saying that this is the primary? The only indication I see is that the URL has 01 in it while the other has 02. But on the coupon page http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coupon, the koopon pronunciation is listed first. Isn't the entire word taken from French? If the French pronounce it koopon, that sounds like a reason to consider the other pronunciation wrong.

Edit: Never mind. I didn't see that this has already been discussed.

 

[turbo]

Having grown up in an area that is predominantly French (though Canadian Metis-style French) I'd have to go with koo-pon. Kew-pon would just go against the grain. We know what a coup is, and how to pronounce it. Even 19th C Native Americans knew how to pronounce it, thanks to their exposure to French trappers and traders. "Counting Kew" would just seem so wrong.

 

[Evo]

Why are you saying that this is the primary? The only indication I see is that the URL has 01 in it while the other has 02. But on the coupon page http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coupon, the koopon pronunciation is listed first. Isn't the entire word taken from French? If the French pronounce it koopon, that sounds like a reason to consider the other pronunciation wrong.

Edit: Never mind. I didn't see that this has already been discussed.

I'm just pushing my preference. (I can't be trusted) As you can see that I consider the French pronunciation of ratatouille correct.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think educated foreigners will often perform better; especially if the language is learned more intellectually than naturally. We're guided more by social acceptance and exposure in our natural languages. But I am only a monolinguist, so my reasoning is inferior:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091029151807.htm

"The research report brings forth six main areas where multilingualism and hence the mastery of complex processes of thought seem to put people in advantage. These include learning in general, complex thinking and creativity, mental flexibility, interpersonal and communication skills, and even a possible delay in the onset of age-related mental diminishment later in life," Marsh relates.

The study might have reversed cause and effect, though. It could be that more creative, flexible, etc. people are drawn to learn foreign languages.

I have often heard it said that a foreigner who formally studied English was likely to have a better grasp of the grammar than a native speaker. It's pretty much a meme. I don't find it to be true except of people who are already very bright to begin with, and already have an enhanced interest in Culture, History, and the Humanities in general.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Having grown up in an area that is predominantly French (though Canadian Metis-style French) I'd have to go with koo-pon. Kew-pon would just go against the grain. We know what a coup is, and how to pronounce it. Even 19th C Native Americans knew how to pronounce it, thanks to their exposure to French trappers and traders. "Counting Kew" would just seem so wrong.

I have to agree with this. There is no particular difficulty in adopting the French right into English. Foreign words should only be mangled for "American" purposes when their original pronunciation can't be easily accommodated.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Speaking of which, how do you Americans posting in this thread pronounce "Mozart"?

I have had my ears pinned back a couple times hearing people pronouncing it exactly as spelled.

 

[KingNothing]

Moat - zart. Then again, I speak German so the "z" sound with a "t" in front comes naturally. I also grew up in the midwest, where we say everything correctly.

 

[turbo]

Probably as "motzart".

 

[zoobyshoe]

Moat - zart. Then again, I speak German so the "z" sound with a "t" in front comes naturally. I also grew up in the midwest, where we say everything correctly.

Sehr Gut!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Schu - bert.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Schu - bert.

No, that's how "Beethoven" is pronounced. Alternately you might pronounce it "Brahms".

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

No, that's how "Beethoven" is pronounced. Alternately you might pronounce it "Brahms".

Then who is Moe Zart?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Then who is Moe Zart?

http://toontown.wikia.com/wiki/Moe_Zart

 

[vela]

I have often heard it said that a foreigner who formally studied English was likely to have a better grasp of the grammar than a native speaker. It's pretty much a meme. I don't find it to be true except of people who are already very bright to begin with, and already have an enhanced interest in Culture, History, and the Humanities in general.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. I learned most of my grammar from taking German in high school.

Speaking of which, how do you Americans posting in this thread pronounce "Mozart"?

I have had my ears pinned back a couple times hearing people pronouncing it exactly as spelled.

I think I've only heard that once, and I mocked that person for doing so.

 

[Jimmy]

Ah am an Amurkin.

hee hee, go Amurka!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE

 

[zoobyshoe]

I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. I learned most of my grammar from taking German in high school.

There are people who've learned English as a second language who could correct most native speakers' English any day. I am not convinced that is the norm, though.

I think I've only heard that once, and I mocked that person for doing so.

I heard a guy say "skizzofrenic" once, instead of "skitsofrenic". That was weird.

 

[KingNothing]

I think non-native speakers may often have a more analytic understanding of English, but I wouldn't say a "better" understanding.

For instance a foreigner might correct you: "Your sentence is wrong because you've started it with a preposition."
While a native might say "It just sounds wrong."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A lot of men around here go to have their prostrate checked.

Seems to be a local thing.

 

[Andre]

I think there's some truth to this. There are some mistakes that us "foreigners" will never make, such as write "should of" instead of "should have" or "should've".

For instance Dutch and German native tongues will never make an error concerning "ei" or "ie", Like Einstien and they'll pick up errors like that -made by natural Anglophones- immediately. This is simply because there is a big -huge- pronounciation difference between the two in their languages.

Now what about the letter I? I is immensely, gigantically confusing, ironically. when is an I an I and when is it the i in is?

 

[turbo]

A lot of men around here go to have their prostrate checked.

Seems to be a local thing.

Ack! I spend much of my time prostrate! Should I be worried!??

 

[zoobyshoe]

A lot of men around here go to have their prostrate checked.

Seems to be a local thing.

What's his face from that NY cop show had an ongoing "prostrate" problem.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ack! I spend much of my time prostrate! Should I be worried!??

I don't know, but no one's checking my prostrate. That's for sure.

 

[turbo]

I spend so much time prostrate that I would fear to be have to subject to examination.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think non-native speakers may often have a more analytic understanding of English, but I wouldn't say a "better" understanding.

For instance a foreigner might correct you: "Your sentence is wrong because you've started it with a preposition."
While a native might say "It just sounds wrong."

I think that's the message of the meme: the foreigner has a much better grasp of the formal grammar.

 

[zoobyshoe]

...I would fear to be have to subject to examination.

You're babbling incoherently, as if someone is checking your prostrate.

 

[turbo]

You're babbling incoherently, as if someone is checking your prostrate.

There it goes again! I could stand getting probed and prodded by attractive young ladies. Old guys with big fingers? Not so much.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There it goes again! I could stand getting probed and prodded by attractive young ladies. Old guys with big fingers? Not so much.

I met this lovely girl who was in med school a couple years back. She went on and on about learning how to check the prostate. Hehe.

At the clinic where I go they pretty much ask you if you want a male or female doctor for any procedure of this nature.

If you want your "prostrate" checked, though, it could be hard to find anyone able to do it.

 

[Jimmy]

At the clinic where I go they pretty much ask you if you want a male or female doctor for any procedure of this nature.

Not being sure of the politically correct choice, I'd probably say, "Surprise me."

 

[zoobyshoe]

Not being sure of the politically correct choice, I'd probably say, "Surprise me."

Hahahahah!

 

[netgypsy]

good choice!

 

[Pythagorean]

The study might have reversed cause and effect, though. It could be that more creative, flexible, etc. people are drawn to learn foreign languages.

Actually quite a bit of universities (and remember the qualifier: educated foreigners) around the world teach their courses in English. Learning two language (English being particularly popular as a second) is just part of the culture for many western countries outside the U.S., it's not so much about being "drawn to". But most of them learn it later (like after 7 or so).

And it's not about creative or flexible; It's about sticking to the formal rules. In fact, a native English speaker might be more flexible and have a better idea of context and slang and just plain social slurs ("ya'll yump to and warsh my clothes" is very much an American dialect. You will not hear very many people learning English as a 2nd language using that kind of dialect). Yet, in much of the US, it's socially acceptable to break the rules (ebonics comes to mind).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

The originator of this quote is unknown.

 

[Pythagorean]

So a language is a bar fight?