Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[Monique]

Talk about a double whammy. Just tragic for humanity in general.

Malaysia Plane Crash Victims Included About 100 AIDS Conference Attendees, Report Suggests
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/who-malaysia-plane-crash-victims-aids-_n_5597547.html

I found it hard to believe that number and indeed that number now appears to be much lower (seven confirmed): http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...a31972-0e85-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html Although it is hard to know for sure, without publication of the official passenger list (4 passengers are still of unconfirmed identity).

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAOTWPmMM4

More intercepts of rebel/Russian operations.

 

[Drakkith]

A sad day for HIV/Aids research.

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...s-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

 

[Monique]

A sad day for HIV/Aids research.

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...s-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

You missed my post on the previous page:

I found it hard to believe that number and indeed that number now appears to be much lower (seven confirmed): http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...a31972-0e85-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html Although it is hard to know for sure, without publication of the official passenger list (4 passengers are still of unconfirmed identity).

Currently I understand that all passengers have been confirmed, so when all next of kin have been contacted I expect the passenger list will be released.

 

[Drakkith]

You missed my post on the previous page:

Indeed I did. My mistake.

 

[Monique]

Still a sad day for HIV/Aids research, you are right, because experts and probably young scientists have been lost.

 

[AlephZero]

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

 

[StevieTNZ]

This was on my Facebook Feed:
"Any numbers people here? What does 17 mean? The plane that crashed was MH17. It first went into service on July 17, 17 years ago, and crashed on July 17. Ummm."

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMhaFntrU
It's got cheesy music that makes me sick but this is the basic launch procedure for a BUK. It's a old system so almost everything is analog, at about 1:20 you see the ground radar target lock process, at 2:30 you see the missile radar target lock and track a practice target.

Without a RWR MH17 never saw it coming but a space based system could record the emissions and develop the radar signature for system type classification and location easily.

 

[Student100]

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

The news about the hiv "researchers" on that flight is very misleading, most weren't even researchers. Almost all were from different agencies, so I doubt they take the time to coordinate their travel with the thousands of other agencies out there.

Really, most of the "researchers" were in fact lobbyists or activists, not researchers.

Still sucks, and will add a bit of somberness to Melbourne this year.

 

[russ_watters]

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

How many decades? These days, plane crashes are so exceedingly rare that if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

 

[AlephZero]

if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

Agreed. And if people fly together, almost by definition that means they will be hanging around in the the airport together, delegating one person to look after all the hand luggage, etc. The plane crashing is only one factor to consider.

The point being that one would hope any medical researchers would apply some risk analysis to their actual research. Maybe they did apply it to their travel arrangements as well - but who knows.

 

[jtbell]

These days, plane crashes are so exceedingly rare that if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

Or go to a presidential inaugural or State of the Union address together, unless you appoint a Designated Survivor.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/19/malaysia-air-crash-missile-launcher-used-to-down-jet-likely-back-in-russia-us/

The missile launcher used to down Malaysia Air flight MH17 is probably back in Russia after it was imported into Ukraine a few weeks ago, a well-placed source with access to the latest intelligence told Fox News Friday night.

The same source also said the missile that brought down the plane Thursday killing all 298 on board was fired from Schnidze, a town in eastern Ukraine.
"We are building a case," the senior U.S. official told Fox News. "It is damn near bulletproof at this point."

The U.S. intelligence community used infrared data, measurements and electronic signals, among other methods, to determine the origin of the missile's path.

So it's pretty clear Russia has dropped the launcher down a mine shaft by now in a lame effort to hide its complicity in this shoot-down. I can only hope the local field commanders (like Igor Strelkov) and those who ordered this will follow it down as Russia attempts to use it's normal methods of 'disappearance' to clean up a mess of it's own making.

So if our case is really 'damn near bulletproof' what action should the world take besides monetary compensation directly related to the crash from Russia?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/eu-weighs-dramatically-raising-sanctions-against-russia-1405705981

How far the bloc will go, however, will depend in whether the 28 countries can agree on a position.

The EU, whose sanctions have generally fallen short of the tougher measures imposed by the U.S., has been hampered in part by a disagreement among members. Some southern European nations, led by Italy, and others including Hungary and Bulgaria that depend on Russian energy, have resisted harsher sanctions.

One official said the potential for retaliatory actions by Russia "are weighing quite heavily on member states."

Most people wisely want to stay out of this mess but something should be done to prevent the delivery and use of advanced long-range weapons that can affect third parties. Russia is the only one who can really do that in Ukraine.

 

[Monique]

It's upsetting how long it takes to get experts to the region to start the recovery of victims and investigation of the attack. People are rummaging through the wreckage and are loading debris into trucks, most evidence must be gone by now.

 

[mheslep]

What have Dutch or Malay PF members to say?

 

[Student100]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkr...e-to-aids-2014-conference-lost-in-mh17-crash/

6 delegates died, not the previously reported 108.

 

[lisab]

It's upsetting how long it takes to get experts to the region to start the recovery of victims and investigation of the attack. People are rummaging through the wreckage and are loading debris into trucks, most evidence must be gone by now.

I heard a radio report this morning from a reporter who arrived at the scene yesterday. He noted where some large pieces had landed. He came back a while later to document it, only to discover the wreckage was gone.

IMO, it would take a planned effort to move large pieces - it's not something a "casual" looter would take.

It's especially infuriating that the party who appears to be guilty of pulling the trigger has appointed itself in charge of the investigation.

 

[Monique]

I think it is a combination of local sympathisants/supporters and separatists, these people are on tape loading trucks with airplane debris. The same with the black box, the separatists were denying having black boxes, until someone broadcast the tape with them walking around with one.

Military action has been considered to secure the area, but no-one dares to send troops there in fear of escalation. A reference was even made to 1914.

 

[nsaspook]

Some classic Russian misdirection.
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

They show the missiles (that we know the 'rebels' moved into place from intercepts) in place near the possible launch site (They claim they are Ukraine’s air defense but only the only possible military targets for Ukraine would be it's own aircraft in that area) and then talk about a SU-25 far in front and much lower (they say it could climb to 10km but never said it did) than MH17 for some reason with no evidence it did anything to the plane even while they have space based reconnaissance on the area that should have detected a launch if it happened but we know it didn't because they would have released that in a second to prove their case.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/john-ke...russia-with-mh17-disaster-20140721-zv4mz.html

"There's enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Mr Kerry said.

I think it's time to show our hand.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

MH17 crash: Rebels hand over black boxes
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The question is what exactly could they find that would help the investigation that they don't already know?

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...78fe58-11e1-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html

Analysts at the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are continuing to examine information about the crash, but the officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.

The senior intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.
...
Russia has gone to significant lengths to disguise that flow of weaponry, the officials said, by delivering equipment that matches the inventory of Ukraine’s military. In some cases, the officials said, Russia appears to have pulled aging and inactive tanks out of storage because shipping newer ones would make it obvious that Russian arms were flowing into Ukraine.

“We think they’re continuing to do it” in the aftermath of the strike on the Malaysian aircraft, one of the intelligence officials said.
...
The U.S. officials said they have confirmed the authenticity of some of those recordings, including one in which the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane at the time the Malaysian aircraft was struck.

Analysis comparing that audio clip to other confirmed recordings of Strelkov’s voice “confirmed these were authentic conversations,” one of the officials said.

Hand played.

As expected the people who fired that missile were running it without the command truck that gives them identification (IFF mode 3 for airliners) and designation of targets. The only reason to operation the BUK in stand-alone mode with the primitive internal targeting radar the only gives you a blip on a screen is if you have no planes like the 'rebels' do and don't give a crap about what you hit.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/

 

[waternohitter]

Prayers to all the victims and families of Flight MH17.

 

[mheslep]

... but no-one dares to send troops there in fear of escalation. A reference was even made to 1914.

Recognition of the possibility of escalation is rational, but I think it should not become the entire discussion.

...To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die; there is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal...

link

 

[Monique]

Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

 

[WWGD]

Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

I had heard of a suggestion to use energy (oil, natural gas, I assume) from Algeria.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

If only each country had their own energy reserves. This world would be so much more peaceful :(

Russia will be in big trouble if euro countries cut their energy contacts.

 

[mheslep]

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

Why amusing? You assume a U.S. supply of gas to the EU is not possible? Why not?

 

[Monique]

It's hard to describe amusing. He freely speaks his mind and doesn't observe what would be politically correct in this situation. I'm not sure whether I would want him for president, but his statements were refreshing.

And all respect to the US, but wouldn't it be convenient for the States for Europe to be dependent on their energy reserves? If it is possible or not, I'm not an expert in these things..

 

[mheslep]

If only each country had their own energy reserves. This world would be so much more peaceful :(

I doubt that an every "man is an island" strategy is the path to peace. That is, after handing each theoretically self-contained country its own energy I think we'd quickly find they would also require ... a self-contained food supply, fresh water, mineral resources, sophisticated transportation system, high tech manufacturing, great universities, thriving economy, free press and speech and practice of religion ... etc. And there would still be conflict.

 

[russ_watters]

And all respect to the US, but wouldn't it be convenient for the States for Europe to be dependent on their energy reserves?

What do you mean by "convenient"? It implies to me you think the US would use that dependence for some sinister purpose. Would we be better or worse to buy from than Russia?

 

[Astronuc]

"The behavior of the separatists ... the scandalous plundering of the luggage and the bodies themselves - all this made an enormous impression on the Netherlands ... and on all of us," . . . .

Hmmmm. Has that been substantiated?

http://news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutc...think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html

 

[Monique]

Hmmmm. Has that been substantiated?

http://news.yahoo.com/grieving-dutc...think-russia-sanctions-003553898--sector.html

Yes, an example: looters used British victim's bank cards http://www.theweek.co.uk/people/flight-mh17/59667/mh17-looters-used-british-victims-bank-cards or: Victims' phones answered by strangers, relatives say http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-lo...y-strangers-relatives-say-20140723-zw6uo.html or: woman poses in make up looted from victims of flight MH17 downed in Ukraine http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pro-russian-woman-poses-make-up-3915258

 

[mheslep]

USA Today reports it had journalists on the ground at the crash site (Filip Warwick and Jabeen Bhatt). They report obvious evidence of rampant looting.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ia-plane-ukraine-debris-field-scene/12827931/

 

[Astronuc]

Absolutely right, world leaders are playing chess and thinking many steps in advance to maintain relationships with allies. Each country has their own allies to keep by its side, creating a complex system.

I saw some statements of John McCain, which I thought were amusing. Him offering to Europe a sustainable energy source from the States within the next two years, so we finally can become independent of Russia. It would be great for the US's economy, but if it's going to happen?

Why amusing? You assume a U.S. supply of gas to the EU is not possible? Why not?

Or perhaps intriguing. Although I could see EU folks being amused by such an offer. Sustainable perhaps, but certainly subject to the vagaries of the market and geopolitical events, and also, there would be a monetary cost.

Recently one of our monthly electrical bills spiked to nearly double from the same period a year earlier, even though we actually used less electricity. When so many folks complained, the utility pointed fingers at 'the market' and said supply was tight and demand higher than normal. Well we used less electricity, but apparently there were others who needed more electricity. Since the utility divested itself of generation (deregulation failed), they buy on the spot market. Now they simply pass along the cost of poor planning, since they don't have to be prepared.

As for the promised competition and reduced prices - that didn't happen. There was no competition - there was no cost reduction - and still isn't. But the folks who did the deals did make lots of money. Oh, now consumers are being asked to pay more, so that the utility will be encourage to expand infrastructure in order to ensure more reliability in the future.


But I digress or diverge, so let's get back OT.

That's really horrible that the folks on the ground would loot the victims, who aren't even involved in the local conflict, but unfortunate, just happened to be passing by. Collateral damage, I guess.