Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

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In summary: Boeing 777 aircraft, Malaysia Airlines flight 17, crashed in eastern Ukraine after being shot down by a missile. 295 passengers and crew were killed.
  • #71
mheslep said:
USA Today reports it had journalists on the ground at the crash site (Filip Warwick and Jabeen Bhatt). They report obvious evidence of rampant looting.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ia-plane-ukraine-debris-field-scene/12827931/

It's not that I doubt there was (or is) looting - we are talking about a war-stricken region, with people likely deprived of basic commodities - but I do not think they reported any evidence of rampant looting; they just mentioned it in passing. This is a recurrent problem with this event: a lot of people, including high-ranking officials, say something, failing miserably to substantiate their claims.
 
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  • #72
voko said:
It's not that I doubt there was (or is) looting - we are talking about a war-stricken region, with people likely deprived of basic commodities - but I do not think they reported any evidence of rampant looting; they just mentioned it in passing. This is a recurrent problem with this event: a lot of people, including high-ranking officials, say something, failing miserably to substantiate their claims.

Voko, but to be precise using air crash victim credit cards seems like an almost Russian tradition, IMO. In case of Smoleńsk (2010) crash, Russian military units also could not resist such temptation. (No war that time)
 
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  • #73
Please be sure if you do not cite a source that you state it as an opinion.
 
  • #75
Evo said:
Please be sure if you do not cite a source that you state it as an opinion.

For obvious (and not so obvious for those outside Poland) reasons the case was heavily commented on in Polish media, so we (Czcibor and I) take it as a known fact (just like you would probably not ask for a source for the claim Martin Luther King was killed by J.E.Ray :wink:).

I am far from overgeneralizations, I believe such thugs can appear everywhere. Fact is - it happened in Smoleńsk, it happened now.
 
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  • #76
Anyway, I find it somewhat peculiar, that if Evo did not know some basic and uncontroversial fact (Russian did not challenge it and already sentenced those constripts) related to subject instead of making one immediate google search, decided instead to spend more time to edit my post.

But it's only my opinion.
 
  • #77
Here is the tiniest of hints that the MSM is beginning to walk the dog back.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

Another, even earlier hint from the UK media:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-shot-down-says-russian-officer-9619143.html

A senior Russian officer has claimed that a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a few kilometres from the Malaysia Airlines plane minutes before it was downed, while also refuting allegations that it had provided separatists with BUK missile launchers.

In a statement to a press conference today, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov said the Defence Ministry would like to know “why the military jet was flying along [the same civil aviation lines] at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane.”

The SU-25 was, Mr Kartopolov says, gaining height and reached a distance of three to five kilometres from the Boeing 777.

Russian officials say they have evidence of the jet’s presence following images taken by the Rostov monitoring centre, and has urged the US to release satellite images taken at the time of the crash.

Mr Kartopolov, a senior member of the Russian military forces, said that Ukraine’s claims that no military jet operated near the site of the crash last Thursday are “false.”

He told the room that the jets “can briefly climb up to 10,000metres [and are] regularly equipped with air-to-air missiles R-60 that can capture and destroy targets of a distance up to 12km and up to 5km as guaranteed.”
 
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  • #78
  • #79
Evo said:
That's just saying they probably could not tell it was a commercial airliner, nothing new.

Exactly, unfortunately the Russians designed the missile system with override autonomous modes that when used by someone with little knowledge of commercial aircraft flight parameters made this incident very likely and that was a very reckless thing to do with without a strict command and control protocol. It's like handing the keys to your Corvette to a 16 year old on a hot date. The 'rebels' are responsible but IMO they don't bear total responsibility.

The autonomous modes are intended for last-ditch use by the Telar operators, not the more highly trained crews in the battery command vehicle. According to an experienced analyst of Russian-developed radar, the automatic radar modes display targets within range. The operator can then command the system to lock up the target, illuminate and shoot.

Critically, these backup modes also bypass two safety features built into the 9S18M Snow Drift radar: a full-function identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system and non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) modes. The IFF system uses a separate interrogator located above the main radar antenna and most likely will have been upgraded to current civilian standards.
...
but one of the most basic – jet engine modulation, or the analysis of beats and harmonics in the radar return that are caused by engine fan or compressor blades – should easily discriminate among a 777 with high-bypass turbofans, a turboprop transport or an Su-25 attack fighter.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/buk-missile-system-lethal-undiscriminating
 
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  • #80
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some of it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

A somewhat lengthy memo, but interesting, especially in its drawing parallels with the KAL007 event.

Signed:

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)
 
  • #81
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/21/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-germany-idUSKBN0HG08520140921

(quote)

(Reuters) - Survivors of German victims of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 downed over Ukraine plan to sue the country and its president for manslaughter by negligence in 298 cases, the lawyer representing them said on Sunday.

Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights.

"Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters. "If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage."

(end quote)
 
  • #82
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29548942#
Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans has said that one of the 298 people killed in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine was found wearing an oxygen mask.

His revelation casts doubt on the theory that all on board died instantly when the plane was hit by a missile.

An http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf last month said flight MH17 broke up in mid-air after being hit by "objects" that "pierced the plane at high velocity".

Rebel leaders deny shooting it down.
 
  • #83
Yes, he revealed that yesterday to defend that some passengers probably did suffer. However, it is still under investigation how the oxygen mask ended up around the passenger's neck. No fingerprints or saliva/DNA were retrieved from it, leaving some room for interpretation.
 
  • #84
Sad, but I think "died instantly" is just a comforting thing told to victims families sometimes. A jetliner is big and a missile can make it break apart, but I know of no mechanism by which it could kill everyone onboard instantly.
 
  • #85
russ_watters said:
but I know of no mechanism by which it could kill everyone onboard instantly.
I thought the blast wave would knock everyone unconscious (at least stun them) and the lack of oxygen would be deadly. I have no knowledge on these missiles and their blast waves upon impact, but it seems plausible. However, one passenger was found with an oxygen mask. Since many passengers were completely stripped off their clothes because of the airflow when falling down, finding someone with a mask is remarkable and one can speculate more people wore them. The investigation is long from finished, at least the chances of it happening again should be reduced.
 
  • #86
Monique said:
I thought the blast wave would knock everyone unconscious

SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
 
  • #87
voko said:
SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
I don't remember if the aircraft broke up in midair. If so, the "blast wave" of being thrown into the atmosphere at 600 mph as the plane disintegrated might explain the differences. If some passengers were in relatively intact sections of the aircraft that were protected from the wind, they might have had an opportunity to put on an oxygen mask. People who were thrown directly into the wind probably died instantly - either from the wind itself or from being struck by other objects.
 
  • #88
voko said:
SAMs have been used to knock down aircraft for about half a century, and based on the accumulated evidence I find this unlikely. The explosion happens at a distance, and the charge is optimized not for its sheer blast power, but for efficient acceleration and shaping of the shrapnel jet (likely those "high-energy objects" from the report that destroyed MH17).
Yes -- so people inside the shrapnel cone would be shredded with the plane, but the rest of the plane would be relatively intact.
 
  • #89
Borg said:
I don't remember if the aircraft broke up in midair. If so, the "blast wave" of being thrown into the atmosphere at 600 mph as the plane disintegrated might explain the differences. If some passengers were in relatively intact sections of the aircraft that were protected from the wind, they might have had an opportunity to put on an oxygen mask. People who were thrown directly into the wind probably died instantly - either from the wind itself or from being struck by other objects.
Ehh, I don't know how "wind" could kill you either. A pilot once survived being ripped from a disintegrating SR-71 at mach 3. He's lucky it didn't tear him apart, but absent that, it didn't harm him.

Disturbing, but if you remember TWA 800, which blew up a few minutes after taking off from New York in 1996...well, it didn't all "blow-up". The front third of the plane, in front of the wings, "blew up" and the rest of the plane kept flying, fully intact (even gaining altitude), for 30 seconds, then in various stages of break-up for several minutes after that. Most of the people inside were almost certainly alive for the entire ride. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800#In-flight_breakup_sequence_and_crippled_flight
 
  • #90
russ_watters said:
Ehh, I don't know how "wind" could kill you either. A pilot once survived being ripped from a disintegrating SR-71 at mach 3. He's lucky it didn't tear him apart, but absent that, it didn't harm him.
Wouldn't he have been wearing a space suit with a full helmet that would have kept the wind from blowing out his lungs?
russ_watters said:
Disturbing, but if you remember TWA 800, which blew up a few minutes after taking off from New York in 1996...well, it didn't all "blow-up". The front third of the plane, in front of the wings, "blew up" and the rest of the plane kept flying, fully intact (even gaining altitude), for 30 seconds, then in various stages of break-up for several minutes after that. Most of the people inside were almost certainly alive for the entire ride. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800#In-flight_breakup_sequence_and_crippled_flight
I remember that but, they weren't at cruising altitude and speed at that point.
 
  • #91
Borg said:
Wouldn't he have been wearing a space suit with a full helmet that would have kept the wind from blowing out his lungs?.
Yes, he was wearing a space suit, which survived the breakup, but I don't know what "the wind blowing out his lungs" means.
I remember that but, they weren't at cruising altitude and speed at that point.
Yes, but unconsiousness/death are not instant when deprived of oxygen.
 
  • #92
I find this photo hard to understand.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29548942
_77470642_cockpit.gif


Investigators said puncture holes showed small objects had entered the plane from above the cockpit floor
 
  • #93
  • #94


Rebel/Russian produced report.
 
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  • #95
russ_watters said:
Yes, he was wearing a space suit, which survived the breakup, but I don't know what "the wind blowing out his lungs" means.

Yes, but unconsiousness/death are not instant when deprived of oxygen.
Sorry for the late reply. I meant that the sudden and violent exposure to winds at high speeds would cause breathing issues besides just oxygen deprevation. I doubt that the diaphram could overcome the force of the wind at the speeds that were experienced by the passengers being ejected into 600 mph winds (I understand that they would quickly reach a slower terminal velocity). I was also thinking about how some passengers would be more frail than others such that being thrown from the aircraft would cause them to be knocked unconsious right away.

With respect to the SR-71 pilot, I would expect that without a helmet, any wind entering his lungs at those speeds would have a very good chance of tearing him apart from the inside and ripping holes through his chest. :eek:
 
  • #96
http://news.yahoo.com/starts-ukraine-collect-wreckage-mh17-083626955.html
The amateur footage, filmed by a resident of Hrabove, shows people reacting in alarm as wreckage blazes only a few meters away from their homes on the afternoon of July 17. The video is perhaps the first taken immediately after the plane came down.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-claims-photo-downing-mh17-164455641.html

This fake is so bad it's comical.
 
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  • #97
Today marks the 1st anniversary of the MH17 disaster.
 
  • #98

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11745808/Sickening-footage-of-Russian-backed-rebels-arriving-at-MH17-crash-site-emerges.html
 
  • #99
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/13/c_134710565.htm

The DSB led the investigation into the cause of the crash on July 17 last year and made public the long awaited findings during a presentation at Gilze-Rijen Airbase on Tuesday.

"A 9N314M warhead, launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system, detonated to the left and above the cockpit," DSB Chairman Tjibbe Joustra said. "The forward section of the aircraft was penetrated by hundreds of high-energy objects coming from the warhead. As a result of the impact and the subsequent blast, the three crew members in the cockpit were killed immediately and the airplane broke up in the air. Wreckage was distributed over various sites within an area of 50 square kilometers. All 298 occupants were killed."

"Other potential causes, such as an explosion inside the airplane or an air-to-air missile, have been investigated and excluded," added Joustra when presenting the reports. "No scenario other than a Buk surface-to-air missile can explain this combination of facts."

The reports stated that the missile was launched from a 320-square-km area in the eastern part of Ukraine, but did not mention the exact location of the launch of the Buk rocket, which could have led to answering the question of responsibility.
 
  • #100
StevieTNZ and nsaspook, thank you for keeping this thread alive. I was inclined to "like" your post, but that seemed inappropriate.

I follow the investigations with great interest. It is my hope that those suspected to be responsible will be found, apprehended and brought to an international court. If found guilty, may they receive the harshest of punishments.

The likelihood of direct or indirect Russian involvement cannot be denied. Although I'm an admirer of the accomplishments of Russian science and technology, I do wish to stress this point. Justice should never come second to the games of politics.
 
  • #101
nsaspook said:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/13/c_134710565.htm
Apparently the US government, via the US embassy in Russia, thinks the report finding a missile destroyed the aircraft was a waste of time.

My heart goes out to the victims of MH17. Too much energy spent trying to cast blame.

If somebody threw that spokesman out of plane five miles in the sky, some grieving would be appropriate but not too much energy should be spent on identifying who was to blame.
 
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  • #102
Wow. Delivered to the Kremlin's doorstep no less!
 
  • #105
russ_watters said:
At this point, I don't see any need for new lies. Looks to me like it's over.
As in the airliner bombing by Libyan agents and other such incidents, the families of the victims will never let this go until Putin is held accountable. I would not.
 
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