Male Bio Students Underestimate Female Peers

[WWGD]

You did not understand correctly. Reasonable cause is a separate category from merit resolutions. These are not synonymous, nor is one a subset of the other. There is a definitions section provided, explaining what falls under what term.

In any case, the data shows that this practice, despite being illegal, remains a real and persistent problem in the US.

.

But you did not reply: is this a problem restricted to women? How many men file similar suits? Still, 73 million women on the workforce, a relaitvely small number of lawsuits. How is this a persistent problem?

 

[WWGD]

You're still arguing against the same stawman. The gap is a difference in median income. It's also only a 'supposed' one, if you're not curious enough to read the data: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=54751.

These data should be the starting points of any discussion on gender income inequality. What I see here is an effort to dismiss them as non-existent which does show that the discussion is not held to the same standards we'd normally apply on PF.

Why should the median be the same if women tend to go into occupations offering less pay?What obstacles are there nowadays with all laws protecting women, to go into high-paying positions? And this is not a strawman in the sense that it is brought up as such by many women. It is not put out just by myself.

 

[Bandersnatch]

But you did not reply: is this a problem restricted to women? How many men file similar suits? Still, 73 million women on the workforce, a relaitvely small number of lawsuits. How is this a persistent problem?

From my armchair I can't find a single example of a case awarded to males, whereas cases awarded to females abound. It wouldn't be a contest if we tried matching these finds one for one. That should at least give you a pause before trying to dismiss it as affecting both genders equally.
Correct me if I misunderstand this bit - those are numbers of cases, not numbers of people. If a whole company is sued by its employees in an alliance, that's still just one case. Whether that is significant or not is a matter of where you draw the line, I suppose.

The point being, this practice exists. It's persistent because it keeps on existing. There are employers who think paying one gender less than the other for the same work is fine, whether due to them being ignorant of the law and thinking its a normal thing to do, or hoping not to be caught, which is admittedly not that easy in the Western culture of being tight-lipped about your paychecks.

Why should the median be the same if women tend to go into occupations offering less pay?What obstacles are there nowadays with all laws protecting women, to go into high-paying positions?

The obstacles are the gender biases in the society - which is what this whole discussion was about. The litigations example shows the regulated part. The unregulated part is in how the society makes somebody overlook a woman for a promotion, or hire a man in a position - because of the persistent perception that men are inherently more ambitious, competent, driven, reliable, resilient, risk-taking, competitive, etc. It's in how we tell our children one gender is better at maths and the other at humanities, or which jobs are lady-like and which are manly, or that boys need to get a career while girls need to look pretty. In how when a couple has a kid, it'll be predominantly the woman that sacrifices her career to raise it.

You may think that's normal, or desirable, or good because it was traditionally so (never a good metric for 'goodness', imo). But unless somebody shows me a study detailing physiological reasons for why being a female makes you want to work shitty jobs, I'll continue seeing that disparity as a stain on the egalitarian values of modern western societies.

And this is not a strawman in the sense that it is brought up as such by many women. It is not put out just by myself.

Yes it is a textbook strawman. You're trying to put into question the existence of gender wage gap by attacking an argument you've constructed yourself from some 'many women's' arguments.

 

[WWGD]

From my armchair I can't find a single example of a case awarded to males, whereas cases awarded to females abound. It wouldn't be a contest if we tried matching these finds one for one. That should at least give you a pause before trying to dismiss it as affecting both genders equally.
Correct me if I misunderstand this bit - those are numbers of cases, not numbers of people. If a whole company is sued by its employees in an alliance, that's still just one case. Whether that is significant or not is a matter of where you draw the line, I suppose.

The point being, this practice exists. It's persistent because it keeps on existing. There are employers who think paying one gender less than the other for the same work is fine, whether due to them being ignorant of the law and thinking its a normal thing to do, or hoping not to be caught, which is admittedly not that easy in the Western culture of being tight-lipped about your paychecks.The obstacles are the gender biases in the society - which is what this whole discussion was about. The litigations example shows the regulated part. The unregulated part is in how the society makes somebody overlook a woman for a promotion, or hire a man in a position - because of the persistent perception that men are inherently more ambitious, competent, driven, reliable, resilient, risk-taking, competitive, etc. It's in how we tell our children one gender is better at maths and the other at humanities, or which jobs are lady-like and which are manly, or that boys need to get a career while girls need to look pretty. In how when a couple has a kid, it'll be predominantly the woman that sacrifices her career to raise it.

You may think that's normal, or desirable, or good because it was traditionally so (never a good metric for 'goodness', imo). But unless somebody shows me a study detailing physiological reasons for why being a female makes you want to work shitty jobs, I'll continue seeing that disparity as a stain on the egalitarian values of modern western societies.Yes it is a textbook strawman. You're trying to put into question the existence of gender wage gap by attacking an argument you've constructed yourself from some 'many women's' arguments.

No, you clearly are making things up when claiming to know:
1) What arguments have I heard? How do you know what I have or not heard? Are you a mind reader, a psychic of some sort? Please don't accuse me of dishonesty without proof. How do you know what arguments I have and not heard? Pure fantasy on your part. How is that in terms of following PF standards: accusing me of being dishonest without proof.

2) The reason you cite for the difference in pay is, as of yet, pure speculation. In addition, you do not know how many people are covered by the cases at hand, nor do you offer any evidence for the reason you allege for the difference in pay, for the obstacles. Yes, if the number of cases covers few people, this weakens your case: if one person in 10,000 is paid unfairly that does not make a pattern.Pure speculation, yet you give yourself the freedom to accuse me of being dishonest. Maybe you should address your own lack of egalitarianism before taking on society's ills, you know, learn to keep your own room clean before giving directions to others on how to live their lives.

3) It is arrogant on your part to believe that just because you cannot find alternative explanations to those you believe for the difference in pay , that there are not any that can serve as better explanations. Your case is weak, and your standards are not up to par, so please stop chiding me for "not living up to PF standards" until you raise your own standards .

You are very typical in wanting to give yourself the right to display outrage , but you do not feel the obligation to do the full legwork and informing yourself.

 

[Student100]

The gap is a difference in median income. It's also only a 'supposed' one, if you're not curious enough to read the data: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=54751.

These data should be the starting points of any discussion on gender income inequality. What I see here is an effort to dismiss them as non-existent which does show that the discussion is not held to the same standards we'd normally apply on PF.

Lets talk about the problems with the data for a moment. First, it compares annual median male wage earnings to the median annual female wage earnings. This is a problem because it isn't adjusted to account for confounding factors, such as men working on average more hours than women, or men taking more physically demanding jobs that pay more - which account for a large chunk of the wage earning differences.

See this paper prepared for the Department of Labor on contract in 2009:

https://www.shrm.org/Advocacy/Issues/CivilRights/Documents/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf

From the forward:

There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. ...

Research also suggests that differences not incorporated into the model due to data limitations may account for part of the remaining gap. Specifically, CONSAD’s model and much of the literature, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics Highlights of Women’s Earnings, focus on wages rather than total compensation. Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits.

Obviously CONSAD caveats their research by stating they didn't really have enough data to make firm conclusions, but this shows there exists a possible mechanism to explain the wage gap that doesn't depend on discrimination.

 

[WWGD]

Correct me if I misunderstand this bit - those are numbers of cases, not numbers of people. If a whole company is sued by its employees in an alliance, that's still just one case. Whether that is significant or not is a matter of where you draw the line, I suppose.

The point being, this practice exists. It's persistent because it keeps on existing. There are employers who think paying one gender less than the other for the same work is fine, whether due to them being ignorant of the law and thinking its a normal thing to do, or hoping not to be caught, which is admittedly not that easy in the Western culture of being tight-lipped about your paychecks.

You may think that's normal, or desirable, or good because it was traditionally so (never a good metric for 'goodness', imo). But unless somebody shows me a study detailing physiological reasons for why being a female makes you want to work shitty jobs, I'll continue seeing that disparity as a stain on the egalitarian values of modern western societies.Yes it is a textbook strawman. You're trying to put into question the existence of gender wage gap by attacking an argument you've constructed yourself from some 'many women's' arguments.

I don't think it is normal, because I don't believe it exists, despite your acussing me of lying (i.e., of using a strawman), without proof -- maybe the high standards you refer to when you stated _my_ post does not live up to these standards?:

I am making an estimate of women covered by the lawsuits covered in the link: http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/epa.cfm offered by Bandersnatch.

I am using the total benefits awarded (bottom of link) over 18 years, from FY1997 to FY2015 , totaling around $130,000,000

I am assuming a case with merit would award a woman , at the low end, around $2,500 ( a low-ball estimate, I think). Under this assumption, around 130,000,000/2,500=52,000 women have been awarded money damages for employment discrimination in 18 years. An estimate of the average number of women in labor force in those 10 years is 78 million (1) (Half the sum of amount of women in labor force in 1997, 2015 respectively). It comes down to: an average of 2,900 women/year out of 78,000,000 in the labor force being awarded ( at the assumed rate of $2500) compensation. Is this a significant result ( a more reasonable assumption, I think, of $10,000 awarded per case reduces the total to 725 year)? Now, Bandersnatch , maybe an average rate of one per 26,800 is an epidemic to you, but not to me. We would all love to live in a perfect world, but this rate does not seem so bad.

(1)http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/womenlaborforce_2013.pdf
I am taking this as the average since there are women both entering and leaving the workforce.

EDIT: BTW: This is the standard _you_ set for deciding the existence of inequality.

 

[Andy Resnick]

<snip>When women try to talk about our experiences or even suggest that there may be a bit of bias we get jumped.

But it's important to talk. My eyes were opened at my previous institution, I had more than a few discussions with senior female faculty who came up through the system in the 60s and 70s about their experiences. They told me things I could not believe- Department chairs telling them that they will not be considered for tenure because they are female, that females don't belong in the lab, etc. etc. Knowing their experiences helps me be more conscientious, because I simply was unaware of such practices- nobody has ever told me I would have to choose between career and family, for example.

[Edit:[ It's a (small) measure of progress those sentiments were quite normative then but considered reprehensible now.

Now I am in a position to do something positive- for example, reaching out to talented URMs in my classes that don't see any role models and suggesting career paths they may simply have never considered.

 

[WWGD]

But it's important to talk. My eyes were opened at my previous institution, I had more than a few discussions with senior female faculty who came up through the system in the 60s and 70s about their experiences. They told me things I could not believe- Department chairs telling them that they will not be considered for tenure because they are female, that females don't belong in the lab, etc. etc. Knowing their experiences.

Or their _perception_ maybe, at least partially? I am not saying that they were lying, but there is an element of subjectivity here that I don't see you addressing.

 

[Andy Resnick]

<snip>The obstacles are the gender biases in the society - which is what this whole discussion was about. The litigations example shows the regulated part. The unregulated part is in how the society makes somebody overlook a woman for a promotion, or hire a man in a position - because of the persistent perception that men are inherently more ambitious, competent, driven, reliable, resilient, risk-taking, competitive, etc. It's in how we tell our children one gender is better at maths and the other at humanities, or which jobs are lady-like and which are manly, or that boys need to get a career while girls need to look pretty. In how when a couple has a kid, it'll be predominantly the woman that sacrifices her career to raise it.

This is an excellent point- bias means more than irrationally undervaluing certain groups, it also means irrationally overvaluing certain groups. Specific behaviors are considered positive traits for some and negative for others, based on cultural expectations.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Or their _perception_ maybe, at least partially? I am not saying that they were lying, but there is an element of subjectivity here that I don't see you addressing.

You've made it abundantly clear in this thread that on this issue you suffer from confirmation bias.

 

[WWGD]

This is an excellent point- bias means more than irrationally undervaluing certain groups, it also means irrationally overvaluing certain groups. Specific behaviors are considered positive traits for some and negative for others, based on cultural expectations.

EDIT But he has so far not replied to my counter that he has not shown the existence of bias through _his_ link, as part of _his_ argument, _not_ mine. According to my analysis of his data, out of an average labor force of 78 million, 2900 women were deemed by the EEOC to have been underpaid This is a rate of around one woman in 27000 in the workforce, and the standard proposed _by Bandersnatch_ (not by myself). Now, do you not believe this is an accurate measure of inequality?

 

[WWGD]

You've made it abundantly clear in this thread that on this issue you suffer from confirmation bias.

How so? I have never conceded to this. I analyzed the claims made by Bandersnatch, an-- avowed believer in the existence of sex discrimination-- and did not agree, I offered a counter. How can you allege confirmation bias when I replied to an argument provided by someone who explicitly believes there is underpayment? If I had selected the evidence maybe you would be right, but I addressed evidence offered by someone who disagrees with me. How can that be a case of confirmation bias? EDIT: You, OTOH have never offered anything even close to evidence that can be assessed/tested in any way. EDIT2: I have made _explicit_ counters to Bandersnatch's claims. Now feel free to find mistakes in my reply to him,

 

[Student100]

You've made it abundantly clear in this thread that on this issue you suffer from confirmation bias.

I don't think that's limited to anyone person in this thread.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

But socially don't we have a responsibility to strive for a bias-free atmosphere in which to educate people?

I'm not sure I would be so broad with the responsibility. I would work harder to strive for the teachers and other system employees and practices to be bias free. Too much effort to remove all bias from the students themselves seems destined to remove students themselves from the process: it runs the risk of producing a disproportionate bias against biased students.

The educational process needs to welcome both unbiased and biased students.

 

[WWGD]

I'm not sure I would be so broad with the responsibility. I would work harder to strive for the teachers and other system employees and practices to be bias free. Too much effort to remove all bias from the students themselves seems destined to remove students themselves from the process: it runs the risk of producing a disproportionate bias against biased students.

The educational process needs to welcome both unbiased and biased students.

And I think it is technically very difficult to accurately identify these biases, i.e., to do studies in many settings, while controlling for necessary factors, etc. And many studies that purport to do that are not being rigorous/careful-enough.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Please do show me a study that shows that men and women get paid differently _ for the same work_.

I think you might be arguing against a straw man here, or recalling an argument with some rather misinformed opponent.

I'm a bit late, but there is still indeed an unexplained wage gap when trying to account for relevant factors, so I don't know if that opponent was so misinformed. Even anti-feminists recognize a wage gap:

Could the gender wage gap turn out to be zero? Probably not. The AAUW correctly notes that there is still evidence of residual bias against women in the workplace.

The straw man is exactly what you pointed out: that the difference between the average hourly wages of all women and all men in the whole country is entirely due to some malicious, conscious discrimination.

 

[WWGD]

I'm a bit late, but there is still indeed an unexplained wage gap when trying to account for relevant factors, so I don't know if that opponent was so misinformed. Even anti-feminists recognize a wage gap:
The straw man is exactly what you pointed out: that the difference between the average hourly wages of all women and all men in the whole country is entirely due to some malicious, conscious discrimination.

It cannot be _my_ strawman, because I never proposed this. I proposed that a man is more likely than a woman to work to absurd extremes , even to his detriment, because many segments attach value to a man based on their earning power. Women tend to be wiser in this respect and save some time for social activities because society does not value them for their earning power. Companies recognize this. If trhere was a gap in pay for the same work whether conscious or not, this would become known, and would be used; these CEOs and their payroll departments are not dimwits . Bandersnatch dishonestly accused me of purposefully distorting things and then disappeared after I questioned him on it.

Many studies conclude that it is difficult to explain gaps in net earnings; that certain women demographics (e.g., single, childless women in their 20's) out-earn men in the same demographics and that women may choose benefit packages over higher pay (1). But Bandernatch chooses to accuse me of lying based on this, while claiming that _my_ post does not live up to the standards of PF -- maybe baseless accusations of lyings do , n Bandernatch's view, live up to those standards.

(1)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jul/15/politifact-sheet-gender-pay-gap/

 

[Tobias Funke]

(1)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jul/15/politifact-sheet-gender-pay-gap/

Hey, you asked for evidence of a wage gap when controlling for other factors and I gave it to you. I also linked to similar evidence a while back when you asked for it. According to your own link,

The study by CONSAD Research Corp. took into account women being more likely to work part-time for lower pay, leave the labor force for children or elder care, and choose work that is "family friendly" with fuller benefit packages over higher pay. The study found that, when factoring in those variables, the gap narrows to between 93 cents and 95 cents on the dollar.
...

Still, a study by the American Association of University Women controlled for a number of factors, including college major, occupation, age, geographical region and hours worked, and found a persistent 7 percent wage gap between men and women a year after graduating college.

The report explored discrimination and reluctance among women to ask for raises as reasons for the remaining gap, though those factors are hard to measure.

 

[WWGD]

Hey, you asked for evidence of a wage gap when controlling for other factors and I gave it to you. I also linked to similar evidence a while back when you asked for it. According to your own link,

But there are demographics where women do better too, according to the same link. And the possibility of reluctance to ask for higher pay , or willingness to accept non-cash benefits instead of pay increases as explanatory variables.. Besides, the 5% that _may_ constitute the pay difference falls into the 5% margin of error. Hardly the clear cut case of discrimination that is often made.

 

[radium]

While the situation has gotten a lot better, gender bias is absolutely real. While I have been lucky in that I have had only positive experiences with faculty, many of my female peers have not been so fortunate and have felt that they have been bullied and belittled by male faculty. I know of recent situations where faculty have openly displayed and vocalized biases towards female students. However, this situation was taken very seriously and faculty members of both genders were very angry that the student was treated this way.

I will note that this has not occurred I am my current department which I feel makes a special effort to make female students feel welcome. This could be in part that we have many faculty members again of both genders who are very passionate about this issues and had a female department head for several years. I think it really does make a difference for women when they see that signature on their acceptance letters.

This brings me to another point. There are very few faculty members in many subfields of physics. Mine is probably one of the worst. However, there have been recent female hires who are absolutely top notch. A lot of men underestimate how important this is and how just one woman can change the environment and make female students more welcome.

However, I do think in many cases people need to be more patient for these changes to happen. For example, grad school admissions is holistic (and many factors that are important in predicting male performance do not seem to have as much of a correlation for women) and women who apply are more self selective. This makes it understandable that a higher percentage of women are admitted. In my undergrad, I would say for the past two years, of the five most qualified students in the physics major, two or three are women which is atleast two or three times the percentage of women in the major. The reason is probably that many women drop out and the ones who stay work even harder to feel appreciated. That being said, admitting too many women is very harmful as people assume that a lot of the women are not qualified. This assumption is happens for faculty, even though all for all of the hires I have seen, the woman is hired because they are among the most qualified candidates who cannot be distinguished from each other.

I have had bad experiences in undergrad with a few undergrads and grad students as well as one postdoc. I can't tell you how many times I have felt like I have been interrogated while discussing homework. There was one guy who was especially rude to me and did this until I broke and said I didn't know anything when I was actually right (I usually make sure of this before I talk for this reason). I experienced something less subtle when I was in a freshman lab (where I was the only woman). We had to finish the lab report during the lab and the student did not know what he was doing. I said that I knew how to do the specific take and asked if he could let me do it. He responded by calling me a very rude name.
I was also around some grad students who were making sexual comments about another undergrad. It was absolutely juvenile and repulsive behavior. I have been the only woman in three classes during undergrad. I was one of two in one of my grad school classes. Sometimes the other did not show up so I was literally in a classroom surrounded by around 20 guys. I have been out to dinner or lunch with research groups where I was the only woman. I was the only woman and undergrad in one of these groups. Everyone was very nice to me, but try to put yourself in my shoes. It takes a little time getting used to these things.

I do believe that a lot of gender bias is unconscious and occurs because of ignorance and/or insensitivity. For example, when male students make comments that make female students uncomfortable, I don't think it means they are intentionally doing so or are bad people. I persobally think that if they were more educated on why those comments are inappropriate, they would feel bad and change their behavior.

 

[WWGD]

While the situation has gotten a lot better, gender bias is absolutely real. While I have been lucky in that I have had only positive experiences with faculty, many of my female peers have not been so fortunate and have felt that they have been bullied and belittled by male faculty. I know of recent situations where faculty have openly displayed and vocalized biases towards female students. However, this situation was taken very seriously and faculty members of both genders were very angry that the student was treated this way.This brings me to another point. There are very few faculty members in many subfields of physics. Mine is probably one of the worst. However, there have been recent female hires who are absolutely top notch. A lot of men underestimate how important this is and how just one woman can change the environment and make female students more welcome.

<Snip>

I have had bad experiences in undergrad with a few undergrads and grad students as well as one postdoc. I can't tell you how many times I have felt like I have been interrogated while discussing homework. There was one guy who was especially rude to me and did this until I broke and said I didn't know anything when I was actually right (I usually make sure of this before I talk for this reason). I experienced something less subtle when I was in a freshman lab (where I was the only woman). We had to finish the lab report during the lab and the student did not know what he was doing. I said that I knew how to do the specific take and asked if he could let me do it. He responded by calling me a very rude name.
I was also around some grad students who were making sexual comments about another undergrad. It was absolutely juvenile and repulsive behavior. I have been the only woman in three classes during undergrad. I was one of two in one of my grad school classes. Sometimes the other did not show up so I was literally in a classroom surrounded by around 20 guys. I have been out to dinner or lunch with research groups where I was the only woman. I was the only woman and undergrad in one of these groups. Everyone was very nice to me, but try to put yourself in my shoes. It takes a little time getting used to these things.

I do believe that a lot of gender bias is unconscious and occurs because of ignorance and/or insensitivity. For example, when male students make comments that make female students uncomfortable, I don't think it means they are intentionally doing so or are bad people. I persobally think that if they were more educated on why those comments are inappropriate, they would feel bad and change their behavior.

This is part of the problem of studying bias, that it is based on self-reporting. I understand this is a difficult thing to measure otherwise, but still, it is a matter as it is, of personal perception. And you are reporting cases of idiots and jerks most of us , male or female run into at some point. To expect to feel comfortable is one thing, to be discriminated against is another.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Besides, the 5% that _may_ constitute the pay difference falls into the 5% margin of error. Hardly the clear cut case of discrimination that is often made.

I don't see anything about a margin or error. Anyway, yes, the country isn't a laboratory where everything can be isolated and controlled for. All of these studies are honest about the difficulty in accounting for everything, and some specifically mention the things you bring up. When combined with studies like the one in this thread and other similar ones showing conscious or unconscious bias--not to mention history and the personal experiences of plenty of women--it's certainly good evidence and not some kind of extreme left agenda that anyone is scared to question because of PC. If you want to make a thread about "idiots and jerks" on the left, you can do so, although it would seem to constitute the cherry-picking that you hate so much. It's very telling that you have the same hysterical reaction to any thread that's even remotely feminist.

 

[WWGD]

I don't see anything about a margin or error. Anyway, yes, the country isn't a laboratory where everything can be isolated and controlled for. All of these studies are honest about the difficulty in accounting for everything, and some specifically mention the things you bring up. When combined with studies like the one in this thread and other similar ones showing conscious or unconscious bias--not to mention history and the personal experiences of plenty of women--it's certainly good evidence and not some kind of extreme left agenda that anyone is scared to question because of PC. If you want to make a thread about "idiots and jerks" on the left, you can do so, although it would seem to constitute the cherry-picking that you hate so much. It's very telling that you have the same hysterical reaction to any thread that's even remotely feminist.

How is my reaction hysterical? I believe I responded to claims with specific counterclaims. I am , I believe , giving the viewpoint of the supposedly privileged males that is very rarely presented anywhere, at least nowhere I am aware of. And maybe you should look at the tone of your posts together with the fact that you also always chime in on these topics yourself. Pot... Kettle...black...I don't know about your experience, but I have taken classes on feminism and hung out with feminists and I am tired of being blamed for all the ills of humanity as a straight white male. And on't you dare disagree with anyone, or you will get the nastiest tongue-lashing while having them decry the abusive behavior of men. I want to provide a perspective I do not see presented.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Well, that right there. That was hysterical. You're often blamed for all the ills of humanity because you're a straight white male? And that's not even supposed to be comical hyperbole. You actually mean it. You should probably just stop or try to make a thread about what you want to discuss, because these threads you get involved in are never remotely close to what you try to make them about. Suppressed white men who can't get their ideas out because of PC pressure...oh, boy. And a "tongue-lashing"?! Uh oh. I recall that you mentioned Malala getting shot for going to school as an example of why "underappreciation" is a trivial concern. But a (predicted) tongue lashing, now that's just too much!

 

[WWGD]

Well, that right there. That was hysterical. You're often blamed for all the ills of humanity because you're a straight white male? And that's not even supposed to be comical hyperbole. You actually mean it. You should probably just stop or try to make a thread about what you want to discuss, because these threads you get involved in are never remotely close to what you try to make them about. Suppressed white men who can't get their ideas out because of PC pressure...oh, boy. And a "tongue-lashing"?! Uh oh. I recall that you mentioned Malala getting shot for going to school as an example of why "underappreciation" is a trivial concern. But a (predicted) tongue lashing, now that's just too much!

I guess you haven't taken classes on feminism and chosen to disagree. Have you tried o give your side of things when discussing with feminists? I was downright abused by the professor and by the women in the class I took on feminist studies.And of course I speak for effect. And I think it is your hysteria which is leading you to bring up the issue of underappreciation; what I am mentioning is that the male perspective is not often presented; I never spoke of underappreciation. The tongue lashing is what I get when speaking with feminists, maybe it is because NYC is the hotbed of radical feminism or maybe it is the radicalism of the left wing media (right wing has a different type and topic of radicalism). At least please get it right before disagreeing.

 

[Tobias Funke]

And I think it is your hysteria which is leading you to bring up the issue of underappreciation; what I am mentioning is that the male perspective is not often presented; I never spoke of underappreciation.

Well, in the technical sense you may not have spoken of it, but you did write it at least twice.

It may be a good idea to wait see if the same result holds in other schools. I am sorry, but the world is an imperfect place and one needs to be tough enough to get over relatively trivial things such as lack of support and appreciation. This seems too much even considering it is a 1st -world problem.

I think it was Russ Watters who put some perspective on it: (paraphrase) If Malala wants to go to school, she may get shot in the face. And you just feel unnapreciated?

At least please get it right before disagreeing.

Get what right? I don't know what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This happened in the previous thread too. You denied saying things that you said on the previous page and then threatened to report me for saying the opposite of what I said. You simply can't approach the subject from a rational standpoint.

 

[WWGD]

Well, in the technical sense you may not have spoken of it, but you did write it at least twice.
Get what right? I don't know what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This happened in the previous thread too. You denied saying things that you said on the previous page and then threatened to report me for saying the opposite of what I said. You simply can't approach the subject from a rational standpoint.

Of course, you are lacking any rationality yourself. Where did I EVER spoke of my feeling unappreciated? This is what I was referring to, and what you keep misrepresenting. Just go on cherry-picking and distorting. I am done exchanging with your made up arguments and straw men.

AND, BTW, I threatened to report you because you accused me of being racist.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Of course, you are lacking any rationality yourself. Where did I EVER spoke of my feeling unappreciated? This is what I was referring to, and what you keep misrepresenting. Just go on cherry-picking and distorting. I am done exchanging with your made up arguments and straw men.

I never claimed you felt unappreciated. You apparently don't understand what I actually wrote, but don't blame me for it.

AND, BTW, I threatened to report you because you accused me of being racist.

Uh, ok.

**I can't resist another footnote. This smear campaign is similar to and interects several others. I noticed that you ["you" refers to WWGD] mentioned past ideas about race, because obviously racism is wrong. Yet you liked a post that "joked" (we know it wasn't entirely a joke though) about a near future with white men being persecuted and, I guess, arrested. There was no mention of race at all before that. So what type of person says something like that? A non-racist? Not too likely. (note that I asked what type of person says something like that, not agrees with the overall post; I'm not calling you a racist)

Emphasis mine.

 

[radium]

If my experiences are anecdotal, then your experiences with feminism are too. Feminism is about trying to empower women, not bringing people down, and that goes for either gender. I have not observed men experiencing any of the things I have described. A lot of them seem suprised that things like this happen since they are unaffected.

There have been so many reliable articles written about gender bias and they all suggest the same thing: the situation is improving but there are still many hardships that women (and of course minorities) face which affect their work. We are not asking to be coddled, we are asking to be respected and not to be treated differently. That is why I have had good experience with faculty, they have never treated me any differently because I was a woman and for this reason I was able to blend in with everyone else. I suspect this is because most people mature as they grow older and learn to listen to other people and not tell asinine jokes about someone's body for instance.

 

[WWGD]

If my experiences are anecdotal, then your experiences with feminism are too. Feminism is about trying to empower women, not bringing people down, and that goes for either gender. I have not observed men experiencing any of the things I have described. A lot of them seem suprised that things like this happen since they are unaffected.

There have been so many reliable articles written about gender bias and they all suggest the same thing: the situation is improving but there are still many hardships that women (and of course minorities) face which affect their work. We are not asking to be coddled, we are asking to be respected and not to be treated differently. That is why I have had good experience with faculty, they have never treated me any differently because I was a woman and for this reason I was able to blend in with everyone else. I suspect this is because most people mature as they grow older and learn to listen to other people and not tell asinine jokes about someone's body for instance.

Well, like many other movements, feminism has become radicalized, at least in my experience, i.e., maybe I have run into this vein; the "77 c on the dollar" buttons, unqualified, etc. But, seriously, just the fact that you have not observed certain things is a strong argument that they are not there? I have detailed some points here, with data to support, so my claims are not just annecdotal : preferential treatment in family court, requirement sin some states for fathers to support children that they can prove (through DNA testing) are not theirs, imprisonment rates of around 93:7 for men : women, etc. I can see racism as a clear wrong, but I don't see a clear case for gender bias.

Here in NY state the degree of PC is incredible, both ways. There is a new program called " NYC Men Teach" , which claims to not discriminate on gender, race, etc. Seriously? You are trying to explicitly hire men to teach and then you claim that you are not discriminating on gender? But then you also see preferences given to women-owned businesses. PC may have started as a well-intention-ed movement but it has degenerated into insincere double-speak. This is why I speak my mind, because these beliefs may ultimately become laws unless contested. And I am hardly privileged in any respect, and don't want to have to compete in a world where I am seen as being so. The hard left has become, is, as stupid as the hard right; there is a general trend of radicalization, because this sells.

 

[radium]

The biases you refer to in family court are a huge problem and very unfair, but they to reflect prevailing attitudes towards gender in society as mothers are seen as more nurturing because of social expectations. I personally believe that real feminism is about empowering women and defying these stereotypes. Feminism is not just for women, it is also about improving the lives of men. Gender bias hurts everyone. For example, a lot of men struggle a lot getting help for mental illness because they feel it makes them weak. That's very harmful for society.

There is evidence that the comments you make about incarceration rates have a biological basis (the fact that gender has a biological basis is undeniable). Men are suspected to be more reckless and commit violent crimes for hormonal reasons.

It's hard to know why women choose not to go into fields like physics. It is likely that the percentage of women will never be equal. However, what we want to ensure is that everyone is treated the same and has the same opportunities regardless of their gender. This is not yet true. There have been studies that when women collaborate with men that people assume that the men did most of the work and get offered less money with the same qualifications. You may say this is anecdotal, but when there are so many anecdotes people should start to wonder why.

You seem to have a lot of distrust towards women. I'm not sure why, but I think it would help if you stepped back and tried to have more empathy for what women go through.

 

[WWGD]

You seem to have a lot of distrust towards women. I'm not sure why, but I think it would help if you stepped back and tried to have more empathy for what women go through.

Ditto for people like you who think only women suffer mistreatment and not seeing your side of the story aired. And for having to be so often demonized as the oppressor, when I am hardly getting by.

 

[radium]

I'm sorry that things aren't going well from you. I did not say men don't face hardships too, that was the point I made in the beginning of my post. But that doesn't mean sexism is not a real problem. It manifests itself in ways that harm both men and women. What I could consider to be real feminism does not demonize anyone it's about trying to grow as a society and there are both men and women dedicated to this cause.
I don't think this will change your mind so we can agree to disagree.

 

[WWGD]

I'm sorry that things aren't going well from you. I did not say men don't face hardships too, that was the point I made in the beginning of my post. But that doesn't mean sexism is not a real problem. It manifests itself in ways that harm both men and women. What I could consider to be real feminism does not demonize anyone it's about trying to grow as a society and there are both men and women dedicated to this cause.
I don't think this will change your mind so we can agree to disagree.

I can only attest to the brand of feminism I have encountered; I allow for the possibility that there may be other brands that may be more like you describe.

 

[radium]

I would say feminism is like socialism, there are many varieties which lie on a spectrum. Some are practical and pragmatic, others are very radical and in my opinion distort and misrepresent the real message by thriving on anger and distrust.
This is unfortunately very similar to what we are seeing on both sides of US politics these days.