Michael Jackson rushed to hospital

[TheStatutoryApe]

Jared: So then I suppose we just got our wires crossed. Your use of the phrase "its a two way thing" seemed to me to indicate that the issue is between the parents and Jackson which led to my ranting. I took your caveats only to mean that you were speculating on points for the court case without actually taking a stance one way or the other on guilt.

My original point in bringing up this continued practice was not necessarily to say it demonstrated guilt but that it seemed to show a pattern of behavior.

So I apologize for ranting at you needlessly. I agree with you that that parents could be said to bare some responsibility for the alleged crime.

 

[JaredJames]

Jared: So then I suppose we just got our wires crossed. Your use of the phrase "its a two way thing" seemed to me to indicate that the issue is between the parents and Jackson which led to my ranting. I took your caveats only to mean that you were speculating on points for the court case without actually taking a stance one way or the other on guilt.

My original point in bringing up this continued practice was not necessarily to say it demonstrated guilt but that it seemed to show a pattern of behavior.

So I apologize for ranting at you needlessly. I agree with you that that parents could be said to bare some responsibility for the alleged crime.

Ah I see, fair enough. Yeah don't think "it's a two way thing" was the right choice of words there. I just meant that under the circumstances of allegations and continuing visits authorised by the parents, they should both be up in front of a jury.

 

[~christina~]

But I'm in the minority here, and I'm sure you'll win your case among such astute, and music loving jurists.

I love his music, but I don't relate that to whether he was, or was not a pedophile.
It is irrelevent. He's dead and that's that. It won't help to argue further about the topic of his guilt or lack thereof. If he was in the midst of a case it would be different. In addition I'm not sure people want to be remembered solely for their crimes, especially since there is so much else you can focus on. (not that it dissapears of course)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Someone made the comment that Jackson ranks with Elvis and Lennon as the icons of modern music. I think I would have to agree. By all accounts that I've heard, Michael Jackson made Michael Jackson. While he had tremendously talented help along the way, it is said by all that he was the real genius behind his success and a diehard professional. Also, given that the Thriller album is still the number one selling album of all time, it is hard to require greater success. He is also credited with eliminating the racial barrier between black and white musicians in that he had entirely colorless appeal.

Biggest Selling Album Of All Time - Guiness Book Of World Records - "Thriller" Album is the biggest selling album of all time, with over 50 million copies sold worldwide. Thriller is also the biggest selling U.S album with sales of 25 million copies.

Most No1 Hits in 1980's

Bad Tour - Guiness Book Of World Records
Michael Jackson's world tour brought in a record gross revenue of over $124 million during September 1987-December 1988.

100 Million Records sold outside of US

Billboard Charts
Michael Jackson is the first person in the 37 year history of the Billboard chart to enter straight in at No1, with his single "You Are Not Alone". The previous record "Earth Song" which had debuted at No5 and also Michael Jacksons.

Biggest Selling Video of all time - Thriller

Most No1 Hits by Male Artist (13)

No1 On Charts
In 1983 Michael became the first artist to simultaneously hold the number one spots on Billboard's rock albums and rock singles charts, as well as the R&B albums and singles charts.

Consecutive No1 Singles
Jackson 5 were the first group to ever have four consecutive No1 singles...
http://www.allmichaeljackson.com/achievements.html

 

[jobyts]

An MJ fan collapses with grief

 

[mgb_phys]

Someone made the comment that Jackson ranks with Elvis and Lennon as the icons of modern music...

"Thriller" Album is the biggest selling album of all time, with over 50 million copies sold worldwide.

Most No1 Hits in 1980's

He was also active during the period when album and singles sales were the highest.
A 30s Busby Berkeley musical had 20x as many cinema viewers as a modern summer blockbuster but it doesn't mean they were any good.

Was Jackson really that musically great? Or did he just hit the right demographic at the right time?

 

[Borek]

Was Jackson really that musically great? Or id he just hit the right demographic at the right time?

Both perhaps?

 

[turbo]

Both perhaps?

Definitely. There are musicians out there that are incredibly talented that will never get the attention that a pop star can generate. Also, we cannot forget the power that MTV and similar venues put in the hands of performers who are flamboyant. The timing was perfect for MJ, Madonna, and others who were ready to jump on the video bandwagon. Similarly, an earlier crop of pop stars was boosted by the disco craze.

Meanwhile, giants of blues, jazz, classical, etc chug along. Remember, Stevie Ray Vaughn was one of the hottest guitarists in blues/rock and didn't get all that much airplay or public attention apart from the blues-crowd. That changed when he died, and radio stations started playing large blocks of his songs, and record stores sold out of his CDs in no time. SRV already had the attention of a lot of blues stars like Albert King and Eric Clapton, but popular acclaim didn't come until he was dead.

 

[Moonbear]

He is also credited with eliminating the racial barrier between black and white musicians in that he had entirely colorless appeal.

Well, he did spend time as each color, gradually becoming quite colorless. The plastic surgery made him odd enough in appearance, but the very artificial looking skin tone (never really knew if it was bleached, vitiligo, or heavy make-up) is what made him appear almost alien.

Was Jackson really that musically great? Or did he just hit the right demographic at the right time?

I think that could be said for any "great" performer. Would Elvis be great if he were performing now rather than then? I don't think glittery jumpsuits and a gyrating pelvis would even get noticed in today's music world.

I think Jackson mostly got lucky and got his solo career going just as music videos were starting. It was a brand new media form, and people were excited about it no matter what was being put into those, so when he actually could dance and included great choreography and expensive sets to really outshine other videos of the time, I think that's what really gained his popularity. He also hit that transition from records to cassette tapes, when kids with a lot of spending money were buying both, so they could play the record at home and the tape in the boom box to try to imitate the moonwalk in the street. Breakdancing was popular, and the moonwalk became another move added to that repertoire. That was also an era with a lot of variety and changing styles the kids were wearing. Every season, something new was "in." Not like now when the droopy pants are still lingering well over a decade or two and kids can't seem to think of something new to do to annoy their parents. So, the one gloved look, and the costumy jackets were all part of that progression of styles in the '80s. I don't remember any of them lasting long, just a season to be replaced by the next look to be emulated...we also had the big hair bands, and female artists like Cyndi Lauper and Madonna who were also in the rotation of crazy outfits kids emulated.

 

[mgb_phys]

I think that could be said for any "great" performer.

I don't think he had the song writing of Lennon+McCartney, the singing ability of Jagger or the stage presence of the Who.
Maybe I'm not remembering the impact at the time but he seemed to be just a 'Will Smith' sort of star, pretty enough for the teenage girl market but androgynous enough for the boys. Safe enough (ironic) that nice parents bought their kids the albums and radio stations played them.

 

[turbo]

Some of the greatest song-writers, IMO, include Paul Simon, Carole King, Neil Sedaka, James Taylor and Jackson Browne. People who could write compelling lyrics and deliver them without flash and histrionics.

There is a reason that MJ bought the rights to the Beatles' catalog. They are timeless, and get played over and over again, yielding a steady stream of income from royalties.

 

[cristo]

I don't think he had the song writing of Lennon+McCartney, the singing ability of Jagger or the stage presence of the Who.

Maybe he didn't have better individual qualities, but his popularity came from the package, which was among the best.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Maybe he didn't have better individual qualities, but his popularity came from the package, which was among the best.

That is more how I see it. I don't think he can be rated as the best singer, or best writer, or the creator of an entire genre of music, it is more a matter of his ability to utilize all of his talents including his dancing, his marketing skills, and especially his keen sense of showmanship.

I'm no fan of dancing, but no one can deny that the man had the moves! [pun intended]

I love almost everything that Elton John has ever done -I even have to admit to playing Funeral for a Friend on the piano more times than I have any other song. He has also been around longer than Jackson has. While I've never bought a MJ recording, I would still have to rate Jackson as being more a legendary figure than Elton.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Too funny!

United States Patent 5,255,452
Jackson , et al. October 26, 1993

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Method and means for creating anti-gravity illusion


Abstract
A system for allowing a shoe wearer to lean forwardly beyond his center of gravity by virtue of wearing a specially designed pair of shoes which will engage with a hitch member movably projectable through a stage surface. The shoes have a specially designed heel slot which can be detachably engaged with the hitch member by simply sliding the shoe wearer's foot forward, thereby engaging with the hitch member.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors: Jackson; Michael J. (Los Angeles, CA), Bush; Michael L. (Hollywood, CA), Tompkins; Dennis (Hollywood, CA)...

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/5255452

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HJbGSHtFYQ

 

[turbo]

Interesting application, but it was probably unique only in the sense that the anchoring studs protrude through the floor when needed and then retracted after the stunt had been performed. Anybody who has skied on long skis (downhill, GS, jumping) knows that you can get way forward of vertical if you need to. Of course, when you see that on TV it doesn't look too "gee whiz" because we all expect to see it at times.

 

[lisab]

Interesting application, but it was probably unique only in the sense that the anchoring studs protrude through the floor when needed and then retracted after the stunt had been performed. Anybody who has skied on long skis (downhill, GS, jumping) knows that you can get way forward of vertical if you need to. Of course, when you see that on TV it doesn't look too "gee whiz" because we all expect to see it at times.

Yes...unless you see it live, it looks like a gimmick.

And even if you see it live...I bet it still looks like a gimmick.

In fact...it's a gimmick.

 

[turbo]

In that screen-shot, the dancers have gotten pretty much into the forward lean sweet-spot for ski-jumpers, though some jumpers manage to tuck even closer to their skis. I used to jump in government-surplus "planks" back in the '60's, but the stiffness of the heavy leather boots, etc precluded such forward flexibility.

 

[turbo]

Now that MJ is gone, a lot of unreleased material will start hitting the market, just like what happened after Jimi's death. MJ's estate after his death may be worth far more than it ever was during his life. Some people will make millions from only being periphially involved in the resolution of that fortune. I hope his mother is an honest and honorable person, though I am a bit disconcerted to find that MJ wanted Dianna Ross as the back-up guardian. Who's next? Elizabeth Taylor? He should at least have specified people that the could (1) trust, and could (2) expect to live until his kids' majority.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Now that MJ is gone, a lot of unreleased material will start hitting the market, just like what happened after Jimi's death. MJ's estate after his death may be worth far more than it ever was during his life. Some people will make millions from only being periphially involved in the resolution of that fortune. I hope his mother is an honest and honorable person, though I am a bit disconcerted to find that MJ wanted Dianna Ross as the back-up guardian. Who's next? Elizabeth Taylor? He should at least have specified people that the could (1) trust, and could (2) expect to live until his kids' majority.

He had a contract with AEG for a fifty concert tour coming up. They are apparently planning on releasing the practice tapes to recoup.

There is also a guy saying he didn't want to do the tour and was supposedly loading up on the drugs to feign infirmity so he did not have to practice and go on the tour. Of course there was also another guy, an 'alternative medicine specialist', who claimed Jackson was being doped up against his will. He then channeled Jackson from beyond the grave.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

CNN is reporting that Diprivan - a drug only used an an anesthestic for surgery - was found in Jackson's home.

 

[Borek]

I have seen small part of the practice tapes today - while he wasn't in particularly bad shape, he didn't look well to me. Thin and anemic.

Sure, he was 50, hard to be in the same shape as in eighties.

 

[turbo]

MJ downloads are at an all-time high. I don't know how long that might continue (fed by "tribute" programs pushed by the people involved in his estate and his record contracts.), but it will run for a while. With money coming in from this and his share of the Sony/Apple/Beatles thing, his estate should do well, and it may have a chance to grow once mr spendthrift isn't wandering around pricey places pointing his finger and blowing $1/2 M at a time.

 

[Huckleberry]

The man is an American icon. I'm sure that given time his work will recoup any debt he owed and continue to make a hefty profit for whomever holds the rights to his work. Maybe Sir Paul McCartney should make an offer.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Now that MJ is gone, a lot of unreleased material will start hitting the market, just like what happened after Jimi's death. MJ's estate after his death may be worth far more than it ever was during his life. Some people will make millions from only being periphially involved in the resolution of that fortune. I hope his mother is an honest and honorable person, though I am a bit disconcerted to find that MJ wanted Dianna Ross as the back-up guardian. Who's next? Elizabeth Taylor? He should at least have specified people that the could (1) trust, and could (2) expect to live until his kids' majority.

So it turns out that there were apparently several unrecorded songs from each album he put out. Having been a perfectionist his is said to have cut at least as many unrecorded tracks per album as there were on the final product.


Diana Ross is apparently a life long friend of Jackson's so I assume he trusts her. The surrogate has also contacted her lawyers to see about challenging for custody though since she has already completely given up her rights as a parent in court she isn't expected to have much luck.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, I must say that I have a very hard time equating the man portrayed by the media with person described today by those who actually knew him. Also, his global influence was amazing to say the least. Even in places like Namibia, work stopped and workers gathered around TV screens to watch the Jackson memorial service. CNN just announced that as many as 1 billion people watched. Only now am I beginning to realize just how big and influencial he really was. He was also touted as being incredibly generous - I think someone even claimed that he had given more to charitable causes than any other superstar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWVgXnHn1U

That sure sounds like the truth to me.

 

[leroyjenkens]

That whole thing reeked of an excuse for someone to make money.

And I was going to watch Jeopardy, but that was on instead. I was watching for like a minute and it was so sappy I was about to throw up. People outside watching a big screen, waving their arms to the music. Before I turned off the TV, I felt I had to get as far away from that station as possible, so I went up to like channel 90. That's how sappy it was.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That whole thing reeked of an excuse for someone to make money.

Who made money? To the best of my knowledge that is absolutely false. The fact is that the organizer said that everyone including the superstars were glad to do whatever they could to help. Also, given that something around 1 billion watched, he was indeed loved around the world - perhaps as much as anyone alive today.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Little Richard confirmed that that when Jackson bought the rights to his music - a part of the deal that got him 50% ownership in the Beatles music - Jackson went to Richard and told him what a tremendous influence he had been to Jackson and music generally. Jackson then gave Richard the rights to his music again as a show of appreciation.

 

[Count Iblis]

I've read that there exist certain very powerful drugs that have the same effect as anesthesia but which will not depress your breathing. These are used by special forces and the secret services but are unknown to the general medical profession. An example of such a drug is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolokol-1" .

Perhaps people like Jackson who have severe sleeping problems should be given access to such drugs. Such drugs could perhaps also be used instead of the regular anesthesia drugs so that people do not need to be on a ventilator while being operated on.

 

[Moonbear]

I've read that there exist certain very powerful drugs that have the same effect as anesthesia but which will not depress your breathing. These are used by special forces and the secret services but are unknown to the general medical profession. An example of such a drug is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolokol-1" .

You're citing a Wiki article that basically says little else is known about it other than it renders people unconscious for several hours as your basis that it doesn't depress breathing?

Perhaps people like Jackson who have severe sleeping problems should be given access to such drugs. Such drugs could perhaps also be used instead of the regular anesthesia drugs so that people do not need to be on a ventilator while being operated on.

Other anesthetic agents don't usually require a ventilator either. You just have to monitor the dosage very carefully. Anyone undergoing anesthesia is going to be intubated to ensure there is airway control in case they do get too much of the drug and stop breathing on their own, but in an ideal situation, they continue to breathe unassisted. The reason these drugs are administered by trained professionals is that there is very little margin for error, and sometimes you do need to continually adjust doses during a procedure to maintain a surgical plane of anesthesia (which is different from just sedating someone) without overdosing.

Anesthetic agents are also pretty harsh on other organ systems, especially the liver. It's not a problem if you're just undergoing anesthesia once, but it's not safe for frequent exposure.

On the topic of the memorial, I don't know why so many people needed to gawk at that. People who might pass up going to a memorial for someone they actually knew would attend one for someone they only have seen or heard on TV or radio. It seems more a commentary on screwed up priorities. Until I read this thread tonight, I completely forgot it was going on today. I worked late and wasn't following any news today. I figure, whatever the family wanted, it's their call. If they wanted it to be a big, public memorial/funeral service, fine.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well, I must say that I have a very hard time equating the man portrayed by the media with person described today by those who actually knew him.

My roommate and I have several friends in common. They all know about how he has lied to me, stolen from me, and just leeched off of me in general for the last year but they are still friends with him and will say nice things about him.

I would not necessarily trust anyones friends to portray them accurately especially when they are talking about their friend who just died.

 

[Count Iblis]

You're citing a Wiki article that basically says little else is known about it other than it renders people unconscious for several hours as your basis that it doesn't depress breathing?

I also read about it here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2004/moscowtheatretrans.shtml

As you write, the dose for ordinary anesthesia is critical, but that, according to the article, makes it impossible for ordinary anesthesia to be used as a substance to put people to sleep in situations like the Moskou Theatre Siege.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Who made money? To the best of my knowledge that is absolutely false.

I didn't state it as it were a fact, so I'm not sure how an opinion can be false.
I'm sure you liked Michael Jackson. I did too. And I'm not attacking him. I'm just questioning the intentions and motives of certain people involved in that show.

 

[GeorginaS]

I didn't state it as it were a fact, so I'm not sure how an opinion can be false.

I don't know that I'd say an opinion is necessarily "false" but there are certainly uninformed and unsubstantiated opinions. Which, I guess hold the same weight as if they were "false".

Now, you might have suggested you were speculating. That has the built-in test of pending further information gathering.

 

[gravenewworld]

Michael Jackson's ghost caught at Neverland Ranch on Larry King Live!

http://www.fox8.com/wjw-news-michael-jackson-ghost,0,3483897.story Fast forward to 8:20