Near the End of A PhD and Have No Job

[twofish-quant]

1) However, many large companies (many financial firms in the US fall in this category) have large HR departments. You would think that within the recruitment division of HR you could find at least a handful of people with some limited technical capabilities who could devote themselves solely for helping to recruit technical positions.

Anyone that has technical skills and interest wouldn't be working in HR.

The people that do end up doing technical recruiting are technical people (and part of what I'm doing here is recruiting and marketing work). But if you are a physics geek, you *might* be willing to volunteer to do interviews, review resumes, and give talks, but you wouldn't want to do it full time.

The other thing is that recruitment is a small part of HR's job. A lot of what HR does is policy development and enforcement. For example, every major company probably has had a ton of meetings trying figure out what the policies should be toward social networking. If you are a multinational company, you have your hands full keeping up with the laws and policies of every country you are working in. And then there is a lot of routine paper shuffling.

After all, the role of HR is to ensure that the firm can fill a given position with the best possible candidate

No it isn't. Despite what companies say, they aren't interested in the "best candidate." They are mostly interested in someone that is good enough and not incompetent. This is important for interviewing because you aren't trying to convince the interviewer that you are the best, but rather that you aren't the worst.

This is why no one cares much if resumes get lost. As long as someone decent fills the position, it doesn't matter much. Also there is a cost issue. If you find someone that can walk on water, they are going to demand $$$$$. Finding someone that can walk on water is pointless if you just need someone that can swim really well, and will do it for less $$$.

If the positions requires specific qualifications, such as a physics PhD, you would think that HR should be able to find candidates without necessarily needing to know "what" these candidates can specifically do (the interviewers can handle this aspect of things).

Except in finance and software, very few of the jobs require a specific qualification. For example, suppose we were interested in time series analysis. If you give me a stack of resumes of astrophysics Ph.D.'s and someone mentions that they have some experience observing white dwarf pulsations, at that point I flag that resume, because I know that someone that has this experience likely has deep knowledge of time series analysis.

Someone from HR cannot do this. The best that they can do is keyword searches with instructions to forward all Ph.D. resumes to our group, and even then no one has a particularly strong incentive to make sure that resumes don't get lost. This is really good. If you had a company that cares a lot about credentials, and you ask them to hire a C++ programmer, they'll just look for someone with a CS degree, and dump physics people.

I find it really curious that those who work in financial firms could get in trouble for putting your resume online in LinkedIn.

Different industry and different culture. One reason for this is that people in banking have a very strong secrecy culture. Good thing too. I wouldn't want to put my money in a bank that would give out my credit card numbers and checking accounts balances to anyone random person that asks.

Also much of the reason I go along with what HR asks is that I think the reasons for not posting resumes are legitimate. One thing I like about my job is that I'm doing pretty cool research in which even a three to six month lead can mean lots of $$$$. The competition will figure out what we are doing (often by hiring our people), but if it takes them an extra month or two to duplicate what we've done, that can be super-critical.

One thing I hear of constantly is the importance of networking, but it seems to be that financial firms seems to go out of their way to make this very difficult.

Sure. That's why it is so important. Networking in finance is *painful* which is why it is important.

The thing about "network like hell" is that it's not throw-away advice.

Which leads me to wonder this, how are graduate students in physics or math interested in working for finance supposed to know who to apply to or where to send their resumes or CVs (including knowing which headhunter is reputable)?

Start with efinancialcareers.com, dice.com, wilmott.com, and phds.org. That will get you to the headhunters, and the headhunters will get you to the companies. Also, you likely will meet up with disreputable headhunters, but trying to figure out who is disreputable is part of the challenge.

You had suggested simply spamming resumes left and right, but that's difficult to do if you don't even know which companies are offering what positions.

You know why I tell people to read Kafka.

Exactly. Spam the headhunters.

(4) On a related note to question (3), what does YOUR firm do to find suitable candidates for technical positions?

Mostly through HH. Some through talks at local universities. Some direct inquiries. Personally, I think it's best if you go through the HH route. The reason why is that you have only a 5% chance of getting hired, but if you flip a 5% coin enough times, you will get a hit. If you are in the 95% situation where you don't get hired going through a HH will get you feedback, and if you have a good HH, he will prep you for the next set of interviews.

 

[twofish-quant]

Finance sounds like it is a lot like defense in that they actively try to keep what their job openings are a secret.

The other fun fact is that sometimes we don't know what the job requirements are. There have been situations where there is head count, and so people look at the applicants to figure out what we can use the head count for.

Essentially, p(success) is so low, you need to have N=10^10.

p(success given e-mailed resume) is about 3%, which means that N needs to be around N=100-200. (Yes, I did was to keep track.) That's pretty typical of a sales situation (i.e. count the number of people that see a TV ad for cars versus the number of people that actually buy the car).

If the number was 0.1%, then it's probably not worth the effort.

The good news is that it's musical chairs, and unlike academia, there are roughly the same number of seats and people. If someone gets a job and you don't, that means that there is now an opening for you.

Also trying to figure out how to model the situation probabilistically is quite interesting. The tricky part is that it's not an independent process. You have 250 physics Ph.D.'s interested in finance jobs, and probably around 200 jobs. That's different from having 500 people interested in 50 jobs. How to put that information into the probability of a given hit, is interesting.

The other thing is that people use probability to mean two different things. People use probability as a measure of subjective certainty but also as a probability of an objective event occurring. It's *really* important to distinguish the two, since the failure to do that is what led to the current mess.

 

[Astro_Dude]

two-fish, is it pretty much required that to go into finance that would take a physics PhD, I'd have to be in NYC? How much do people generally start out with? I understand that the culture is very bonus heavy, but I'm wondering about guaranteed money.

 

[twofish-quant]

two-fish, is it pretty much required that to go into finance that would take a physics PhD, I'd have to be in NYC?

Or London, Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo.

90% of the US jobs are in NYC. People outside of NYC will tend not to hire entry level Ph.D.'s because they figure that you will run off to NYC in a year.

How much do people generally start out with?

$100/salary + $50K bonus.

I understand that the culture is very bonus heavy, but I'm wondering about guaranteed money.

Also bonuses are different in finance than in other jobs. Basically, if you get zero bonus it means that you are about to get fired, and you should look for another job. So if you have "average" performance, you'll get a large chunk of your salary in bonus.

The trend has been to decrease bonus and increase salary.

 

[JDGates]

I'm still having the issue that every time I look at even small DCs, I can't really find too much in the way of jobs I'm a great fit for... I just am not terribly optimistic applying for a job in engineering stuff (even when I can do it), because they just don't seem to care about physics people.

What companies are you looking at?

 

[Astro_Dude]

What companies are you looking at?

I've recently been trying to expand my focus (mostly through the advice given in this thread). Here's a non-complete list of the companies I've spend significant time on, not including gov't places:

Raytheon
Lockheed
Northrop-Grumman
BAE
ITT
Halliburton
Schlumberger
Analogic
Bose

I have a complete list somewhere, but that's a good sampling I suppose.

 

[Astro_Dude]

$100/salary + $50K bonus.

Also bonuses are different in finance than in other jobs. Basically, if you get zero bonus it means that you are about to get fired, and you should look for another job. So if you have "average" performance, you'll get a large chunk of your salary in bonus.

The trend has been to decrease bonus and increase salary.

That's significantly better than I expected. I figured something around 60K + some kind of commission based stuff. I'm not good at that kind of sales, which is why I'd be better suited writing the code and selling how good the code works as opposed to getting people to give up money.

EDIT: Also, another question. When making a profile on a site like efinancialcareers, should I say I have "no experience", since I really don't have experience in finance? I technically have LOTS of experience in useful skills, but it's kinda a strange position to be in.

 

[JDGates]

I've recently been trying to expand my focus (mostly through the advice given in this thread). Here's a non-complete list of the companies I've spend significant time on, not including gov't places:

Raytheon
Lockheed
Northrop-Grumman
BAE
ITT
Halliburton
Schlumberger
Analogic
Bose

I have a complete list somewhere, but that's a good sampling I suppose.

Yeah, the big ones are going to be hard for all the reasons discussed. There does appear to be a bit of a summer hiring lull (some of the places I know are pretty much always looking don't have anything advertised, anyway), but there's some stuff out there. For example:

https://careers-metsci.icims.com/jobs/1025/job

Companies like Shafer Corp. and Strategic Analysis Inc. are always looking for technical people to work on-site with clients as technical advisors, e.g.:

https://jobs-schafer.icims.com/jobs/1677/job?branding=test

Irrespective of what they say about "desirable" experience, I've known several fresh PhDs who got these kind of jobs. The "SETA" job is a good one to keep an eye out for in general.

Even when they don't advertise, the studies and analysis FFRDCs (IDA, CNA, RAND) are usually looking for PhDs. These are great places for PhDs who don't want to continue doing science. Bonus for you, they like people who are good at statistics, but usually don't care about specific programming skills. For example:

https://cna.hua.hrsmart.com/ats/js_job_details.php?reqid=254

CNA also has non-defense work (FAA, Homeland Security, etc.), as does RAND. IDA doesn't have anything entry-level advertised right now, but would be worth submitting a resume/cover letter to anyway.

For government, you might look at some of the places that have their own hiring programs outside of USA Jobs, and particular the ones that have professional development programs, such as:

http://www.dnfsb.gov/professional-development-program-pdp

http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/employment/careers.html#nspdp

(While the NRC's program doesn't mention physics, I know a condensed matter theorist who recently got an offer from them.)

Anyway, I don't mean this to be a comprehensive list, but if you haven't seen these opportunities before, then you might look through and pick up some keywords that you can then use to search elsewhere.

 

[twofish-quant]

That's significantly better than I expected. I figured something around 60K + some kind of commission based stuff.

One thing that you have to realize is that NYC is a very expensive city (i.e. $2000/month rent for any decent family apartment, 45% marginal tax rate). $150K in NYC is probably equivalent to about $100K in Austin, Texas, so a lot depends on whether you want leave in NYC.

The other thing is that you will feel miserably poor. $150K is the basic salary in a financial firm, and you'll run into people making tons more money than that. The other thing is that in a lot of places, you don't see the rich, whereas in NYC all you have to do is to walk down Fifth Avenue, and you'll see stores selling $30K handbags and jewelry to mistresses of third world dictators who sent down the private jet to do a round of shopping.

There is a whole scary world of the super-rich. You won't be part of it, but you'll see glimpses of it.

The other thing that I find nice about NYC is that everyone is trying to make it big. You look at the people that run the taco stands, sweep the floors, and drive the taxis, and you can see that they have dreams of making $$$$$.

And everyone is selling stuff. I once got stuck with a homeless person, and we got into a conversation, and he turned out to be extremely intelligent, and he was talking about his strategy for panhandling. (What you want to do is to get into a conversation with a couple. The woman will feel sorry for you, and put pressure on the man to give you money.)

EDIT: Also, another question. When making a profile on a site like efinancialcareers, should I say I have "no experience", since I really don't have experience in finance?

Say that you have experience in whatever your Ph.D. was in. The big thing to mention is that you have a physics Ph.D.

 

[Astro_Dude]

One thing that you have to realize is that NYC is a very expensive city (i.e. $2000/month rent for any decent family apartment, 45% marginal tax rate). $150K in NYC is probably equivalent to about $100K in Austin, Texas, so a lot depends on whether you want leave in NYC.

Oh, I know. I grew up there. I was concerned that I'd have to be a Ph.D. with a roomate.

Say that you have experience in whatever your Ph.D. was in. The big thing to mention is that you have a physics Ph.D.

Ah, ok. Five years statistics it is.

 

[Astro_Dude]

I always hear that sending generic cover letters is a kiss of death, but if I have to spam my resume by the hundreds, what else can I do besides change a sentence or two at the beginning?? It frustrates me to read things on the web from HR people who demand every cover letter be 100% unique.

 

[twofish-quant]

I always hear that sending generic cover letters is a kiss of death

I don't think that I've ever read a cover letter.

As far as I can tell, the cover letter has one and only one purpose, and that's to make sure that your resume doesn't get lost in the shuffle. Without a cover letter, there is a good chance that your resume will end up somewhere totally random.

It frustrates me to read things on the web from HR people who demand every cover letter be 100% unique.

Which is weird since HR only spends 30 seconds looking at the resume anyway.

Also one thing that I find useful is write a technical summary of my Ph.D. work in both the cover letter and the resume. This goes way over the heads of most HR people, which is the whole point.

 

[Astro_Dude]

Bad day for me overall. I've applied to another 30 jobs just this last week alone, in various industries. Got three rejections today, all from DCs, that were all positions I was really optimistic about. They were all low-level engineering things that I met all the qualifications for, and then some. Within 24-48 hours of the app going out, I got an email that didn't even give any feedback. :(

I'm trying my damnest to keep optimistic, but when I can't even get past the damned computer on entry level things just asking for B.S. degrees, I want to scream.

DEAR ASTRO_DUDE,

SIT AND SPIN

I can feel your pain.
But You continue your research and also don’t get upset
Best of luck for your bright future

thanks :)

I don't think that I've ever read a cover letter.

As far as I can tell, the cover letter has one and only one purpose, and that's to make sure that your resume doesn't get lost in the shuffle. Without a cover letter, there is a good chance that your resume will end up somewhere totally random.

Which is weird since HR only spends 30 seconds looking at the resume anyway.

Also one thing that I find useful is write a technical summary of my Ph.D. work in both the cover letter and the resume. This goes way over the heads of most HR people, which is the whole point.

The other thing is, that as far as I can tell, recruiters generally don't even give a **** about cover letters and throw them away.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you. There was a time in my life where I was between jobs and it took me almost 4 months and 100 job applications before I found my next job.

The key thing is persistence. You can send your resume and cover letter to >100 jobs, and the vast majority (perhaps upwards of 80-90%) would end up being rejected., but it's the other 10-20% though that will get you in the door.

Also, just because you were rejected (or didn't get a response) doesn't automatically mean that the company has forgotten about you. Many companies keep your resumes on file for upwards to a year, sometimes 2 years, and when new positions open up will contact those who they haven't placed, particularly those with impressive credentials. I have had companies contact me almost 6 months later asking to interview me for a position that just opened up.

Bad day for me overall. I've applied to another 30 jobs just this last week alone, in various industries. Got three rejections today, all from DCs, that were all positions I was really optimistic about. They were all low-level engineering things that I met all the qualifications for, and then some. Within 24-48 hours of the app going out, I got an email that didn't even give any feedback. :(

I'm trying my damnest to keep optimistic, but when I can't even get past the damned computer on entry level things just asking for B.S. degrees, I want to scream.

DEAR ASTRO_DUDE,

SIT AND SPIN



thanks :)



The other thing is, that as far as I can tell, recruiters generally don't even give a **** about cover letters and throw them away.

 

[twofish-quant]

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you. There was a time in my life where I was between jobs and it took me almost 4 months and 100 job applications before I found my next job.

Same here. One of the more useful bits of education that I learned was from salesmen that I worked with. The thing about salesmen is that getting rejected is part of the job, and after the first 30 rejections, you stop caring about people saying no. Some of my friends were telemarketers in college, and that's a very useful job to prepare you for the job hunt.

Something that helped me was to consider that my job was to find a job. I got up every morning at 8:30, went to my office (i.e. a local coffee house) and spend the entire day until 6:00 busy working. The other thing that I did that helped was to think deeply about my situation. What happens with a lot of people is that the demand that you do something right now means no time to think about abstract things, but in order to keep sane, I ended up thinking about economics and physics, and reading a lot of math.

Dark humor also helped. One thing that I did was to imagine myself being Gordon Gekko stuck the play Glen Garry Glen Ross. The weird part was that I really *was* stuck in the play Glen Garry Glen Ross. One other bit of drama that helped was the Star Trek: TOS episode "The Enemy Within." It was my inner "evil Kirk" that got me through that period.

Many companies keep your resumes on file for upwards to a year, sometimes 2 years, and when new positions open up will contact those who they haven't placed, particularly those with impressive credentials. I have had companies contact me almost 6 months later asking to interview me for a position that just opened up.

Also if you can find a real live human being that you can put into your rolodex, that helps a lot.

 

[twofish-quant]

Bad day for me overall. I've applied to another 30 jobs just this last week alone, in various industries. Got three rejections today, all from DCs, that were all positions I was really optimistic about.

One thing that helped me was to "be numb." If I got optimistic about something then it was depressing when nothing happened. So I just got emotion-less when I send out the resumes. Viewing sending out resumes as something like taking out the trash, helps a lot.

Also if you get immediate rejections, that means that the companies are likely under hiring freeze so there are no jobs to be had. Something to be aware of is that right now the US economy is at the edge of a cliff, and if the US doesn't come up with a budget deal before 8/2, then we are looking at a disaster of Biblical proportions...

Peter Venkman: Or you can accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff!
Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Ray Stanz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!
Winston Zeddmore: The dead rising from the grave!
Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!
Mayor: Enough! I get the point! And what if you're wrong?
Peter Venkman: If we're wrong, then nothing happens. We go to jail, peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it

Right now, no one that is dependent on any government money is hiring, because everything depends on what happens between now and August 2. I'm hoping that this is all political theater, because there is a decent chance that things are going to go from bad to very, very, very bad.

Within 24-48 hours of the app going out, I got an email that didn't even give any feedback. :(

That likely means that there are no jobs at all, so even if you could walk on water, it doesn't matter.

I'm trying my damnest to keep optimistic, but when I can't even get past the damned computer on entry level things just asking for B.S. degrees, I want to scream.

Something that helped was *NOT* to be optimistic. It actually felt better to feel bad. The other thing that helped was the game "things could be worse."

Something else that I tried to avoid doing was to think "well if I did this other thing then things would be fine." The reason for not thinking that was that first it's not likely to be true. I'm pretty sure that bachelors with engineering degrees are getting rejection letters faster than you are. The second thing is that even if it is true, it doesn't matter. The important thing is to keep swinging at the ball, and anything that keeps you from doing that is useful.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Twofish-quant,

I am of the concerted opinion (I could be wrong, but likely not) that much of what is happening related to the debt-ceiling is just pure political theatre, and that by August 2 (or probably the day before) a deal will be reached between the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress.

It will be a cliffhanger, but given the importance of the debt-ceiling and the consequences of the US being in a technical default, cooler and responsible heads will prevail, in spite of all the noises from the right-wing extremist Tea Partiers within the Republican party.

 

[Astro_Dude]

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you. There was a time in my life where I was between jobs and it took me almost 4 months and 100 job applications before I found my next job.

The key thing is persistence. You can send your resume and cover letter to >100 jobs, and the vast majority (perhaps upwards of 80-90%) would end up being rejected., but it's the other 10-20% though that will get you in the door.

Also, just because you were rejected (or didn't get a response) doesn't automatically mean that the company has forgotten about you. Many companies keep your resumes on file for upwards to a year, sometimes 2 years, and when new positions open up will contact those who they haven't placed, particularly those with impressive credentials. I have had companies contact me almost 6 months later asking to interview me for a position that just opened up.

In the worst of times, it feels like a total waste. I understand that I'm very qualified and have more skills than most anyone my age. Heck, almost all of us on this site are in that kind of position. In the end though, it just is just maddening to think that after spending 10 years with (pretty much) no life, I *still* don't have what is needed for most positions that are interesting. I know people with humanities degrees who have gotten engineering jobs more easily.

As I've said, I know I got to keep optimistic, not always easy though! Heck, last night, some friends of mine came up three physics/eng companies I hadn't thought of... and of course none of the three had anything that I qualify for. :(

Must keep trying though!

Same here. One of the more useful bits of education that I learned was from salesmen that I worked with. The thing about salesmen is that getting rejected is part of the job, and after the first 30 rejections, you stop caring about people saying no. Some of my friends were telemarketers in college, and that's a very useful job to prepare you for the job hunt.

Something that helped me was to consider that my job was to find a job. I got up every morning at 8:30, went to my office (i.e. a local coffee house) and spend the entire day until 6:00 busy working. The other thing that I did that helped was to think deeply about my situation. What happens with a lot of people is that the demand that you do something right now means no time to think about abstract things, but in order to keep sane, I ended up thinking about economics and physics, and reading a lot of math.

I'm somewhat lucky that I have something that I can do the next few months to keep alive while I look more. I can't imagine having to work in retail again... but I guess you got to do what you got to do.

Dark humor also helped. One thing that I did was to imagine myself being Gordon Gekko stuck the play Glen Garry Glen Ross. The weird part was that I really *was* stuck in the play Glen Garry Glen Ross.One other bit of drama that helped was the Star Trek: TOS episode "The Enemy Within." It was my inner "evil Kirk" that got me through that period.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII'M CAPTAIN KIIIIIIIIIIIRK

One thing that helped me was to "be numb." If I got optimistic about something then it was depressing when nothing happened. So I just got emotion-less when I send out the resumes. Viewing sending out resumes as something like taking out the trash, helps a lot.

Most rejections I just giggle at this point. It's the ones that I thought I had the best chance at that are frustrating.

Also if you get immediate rejections, that means that the companies are likely under hiring freeze so there are no jobs to be had. Something to be aware of is that right now the US economy is at the edge of a cliff, and if the US doesn't come up with a budget deal before 8/2, then we are looking at a disaster of Biblical proportions...

I'd be interested to know what the perception of this is on Wall Street. Because really, the people I know on Wall Street seem to have a much better bead on what's really going on in these types of debates.

That likely means that there are no jobs at all, so even if you could walk on water, it doesn't matter.

But if there's no jobs, why advertise positions on the website? Isn't that just a waste of everyone's time?

Something else that I tried to avoid doing was to think "well if I did this other thing then things would be fine." The reason for not thinking that was that first it's not likely to be true. I'm pretty sure that bachelors with engineering degrees are getting rejection letters faster than you are. The second thing is that even if it is true, it doesn't matter. The important thing is to keep swinging at the ball, and anything that keeps you from doing that is useful.

Understood. One thing I tend to forget when I think that I should have gone into engineering is that engineers are a dime a dozen. Physics PhDs are not.

 

[nobelium102]

omg you are scarrrrring me,,,,,,,,,,,
I wanted to do physics and math major :(

can't you try teaching high school? (my high school teacher has phd)
Dude, i thought if you had phD you are like a professor or something

 

[twofish-quant]

I am of the concerted opinion (I could be wrong, but likely not) that much of what is happening related to the debt-ceiling is just pure political theatre, and that by August 2 (or probably the day before) a deal will be reached between the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress.

Oh. I think that too, but the problem with threatening to jump off a cliff is that even if you don't mean to do it, you might slip.

The other thing is that there are some pretty interesting game theory elements as to what is going on. You have your finger on the button of a bomb that will blow everyone up. Now no rational person would press that button, but if you know that the other person is rational, you can bargain pretty hard knowing that they won't press that button. So part of convincing someone to do what you want is to make people think that you are nuts.

Also even if they do come up with a budget deal, no one has any clue what it looks like which means that even in the best case scenario, no one that depends on government funding is hiring right now, because even in the absence of a default, no one knows who is going to get cut.

 

[twofish-quant]

omg you are scarrrrring me,,,,,,,,,,,
I wanted to do physics and math major :(

The world is a scary place.

Also, I don't want to dissuade you from doing a physics and math major. Part of the situation is that we have a lousy economy, but a lousy economy hits pretty much everyone, so even though you might be in a bad situation if you major in physics and math, what else are you going to do? Every other major is bad or worse.

 

[twofish-quant]

In the end though, it just is just maddening to think that after spending 10 years with (pretty much) no life, I *still* don't have what is needed for most positions that are interesting. I know people with humanities degrees who have gotten engineering jobs more easily.

One thing that I figured out when I went out into the "real world" is that getting a job involves learning a lot of skills that aren't obviously taught in the Ph.D. program. One of which is how not to go insane with a ton of rejections.

As I've said, I know I got to keep optimistic, not always easy though!

Personally, I find that optimism doesn't work that well.

Cynicism and a taste for the absurd works better for me. Also, I found that looking for work left me profoundly angry, and a lot of the "how not to go too crazy" was to deal with the anger. It turns out that for me, anger was useful. The thing that I had to worry about most was getting so depressed that I couldn't get out of bed, but the nice thing about getting angry was that getting angry gets you out of bed.

I'd be interested to know what the perception of this is on Wall Street. Because really, the people I know on Wall Street seem to have a much better bead on what's really going on in these types of debates.

I don't think there is a consensus. Also there is an element of self-interest here. I'm a little worried that the economy is becoming too finance focus, but on the other hand, I'm obviously not going to advocate "shoot the bankers" policies.

But if there's no jobs, why advertise positions on the website? Isn't that just a waste of everyone's time?

Because it takes time to clean up the website, and sometimes the truth (i.e. not only are we not hiring, but we are just laid off a thousand people and moving operations to India) looks bad on a website. It's an obvious waste of the time of job seekers, but then that doesn't matter to anyone in the company. Also, when a company is undergoing massive layoffs, the last thing anyone cares about is to keep the website up to date.

This is where networking comes in useful. If you know someone that works at company X, they can tell you whether company X is really hiring or if everyone there is working on their resumes and about to jump ship.

I've had bad experiences with corporate websites to the point that I don't even bother looking at them for any sort of job search. In the markets I've been in, if a company has a real job opening, they are going to be going through headhunters and the standard job search sites.

 

[twofish-quant]

One other thing about geography is that there is something that causes Ph.D. jobs to cluster in a few cities. My guess is that part of it is the "space alien syndrome." If you give your resume to a company that has never seen a physics Ph.D., then they have no clue what to do with you. Whereas, it helps a lot if you are talking to another Ph.D.

I spent about two years trying not to end up in NYC before I gave up and drank the kool-aid. I ended up loving the culture of NYC, although I can see how some people might hate it.

One of the things I like about NYC is that people in NYC think big, and they don't mind other people thinking big. In my last job search, I was talking to a company in DFW and I was telling them how I wanted to transform the entire world of finance, and they were looking at me like "well we just need someone to manage the computers."

 

[Astro_Dude]

One other thing about geography is that there is something that causes Ph.D. jobs to cluster in a few cities. My guess is that part of it is the "space alien syndrome." If you give your resume to a company that has never seen a physics Ph.D., then they have no clue what to do with you. Whereas, it helps a lot if you are talking to another Ph.D.

I spent about two years trying not to end up in NYC before I gave up and drank the kool-aid. I ended up loving the culture of NYC, although I can see how some people might hate it.

One of the things I like about NYC is that people in NYC think big, and they don't mind other people thinking big. In my last job search, I was talking to a company in DFW and I was telling them how I wanted to transform the entire world of finance, and they were looking at me like "well we just need someone to manage the computers."

That's a surprising attitude for a DFW company to have since half the damned area runs on high tech. I can think of about 2 dozen companies that have big operations there... and that's not including the gov't operations in the area.

 

[Astro_Dude]

A lot of my professors have been coming to me and telling me that even they had months of waiting after graduation. It actually amazed me at which of them are telling me that they were out of school with no options, because a lot of them are staggeringly brilliant, and much better than I am at this! :)

It's vaguely calming to hear that this is apparently normal to be in this position.

 

[twofish-quant]

That's a surprising attitude for a DFW company to have since half the damned area runs on high tech.

The curious thing about high technology companies is how with some few exceptions, they tend not to be run by technical people. Many technology companies have a glass ceiling above which geeks aren't allowed to tread. In most companies, you will find a huge amount of your time taking orders from salesman and MBA's that are totally clueless about what the company makes.

 

[hawaiifiver]

isn't that headwrecking!

 

[TMFKAN64]

Not really. The sad thing that you eventually realize is that in the big scheme of things, engineering really isn't that important to the fate of a company. Sure, you need some engineers, and they need to make *something* that can be sold... but how good it is doesn't really matter that much.

The fate of a company usually turns on sales and marketing, not technology.

 

[twofish-quant]

The fate of a company usually turns on sales and marketing, not technology.

Also sales and marketing involves convincing people to give you money and power, and it's not too surprising that people that are good at convincing other people to give them money and power end up having large amounts of money and power within a company.

 

[GODISMYSHADOW]

I'm really at the end of my rope.

For months I've applied to jobs in industry, gov't, and even academia with little to nothing in the way of responses. I've gotten on the order of 1-3 responses back, and almost all three said that they'd "might have" hired me if they didn't get unexpected cuts.

For background, I have a M.S. in physics, B.S. in Physics & Mathematics, and will soon get my Ph.D. in physics this summer. Sounds like I totally have a great resume right? Well, it turns out that I made a horrific decision in wanting to do my thesis in observational astronomy. So while my degree says Physics, much of my research experience isn't very transferable outside of academia... which I have grown to despise. I don't want to be in this environment anymore. I don't want to move 3 more times in the next six years before even having a hope of a permanent job. I want to be able to start my life... I'd love a job in industry (particularly in defense)... but I can find very little in the way of openings I even vaguely qualify for.

I don't have the vigorous theoretical background to do high-end finance, even if that would be of interest to me. I have some computational skills, but virtually everything I find computer based in jobs requires much more skills than I have (e.g. specific databases, language or engineering programs). What I do have is the PhD to prove I'm a good problem solver, and a smart driven person. I have authored many papers, can (and have) taught others how to use astro tools, and I am above average in scientific statistics. I have scripted a few basic monte carlos in Python, but that's really the extent of my coding skills.

Still, everything I find wants ridiculous requirements, and generally the response I hear back for jobs I do qualify for is "...but you don't have an engineering degree". I'm losing my mind in that I can't find very many jobs that I qualify for, and those that I do stick their nose in the air because my degree says Physics and not Engineering.

My best luck in matching my skills has come from looking at Systems & Research engineering, but I generally never hear back from those positions. I suppose mostly because they are either entry level or require knowing every engineering program the company uses. While I'm on the subject, I've never really figured out whether I should sell myself as an entry level person with a lot of skills or a qualified person with no experience?

I guess I'm just posting to figure out what the heck I'm doing wrong. I just am so darn frustrated... I feel like I've wasted my time, and I should have just gone straight into the workforce out of my B.S...

EDIT: I also try to sell my very limited experience with radios and Jackson E&M as being relevant for signal analysis and such...

You've picked a field where brilliant men are commonplace. A roommate at IIT was a physics major, but his grades weren't so good. When they returned the exams in physics class he had a "D" on his. However, this guy was well informed about everything and later landed a job designing aircraft instruments.

 

[GODISMYSHADOW]

Still, everything I find wants ridiculous requirements, and generally the response I hear back for jobs I do qualify for is "...but you don't have an engineering degree". I'm losing my mind in that I can't find very many jobs that I qualify for, and those that I do stick their nose in the air because my degree says Physics and not Engineering.

Another thought, maybe you can try civil engineering. Civil engineering is one of those jobs they sometimes let mathematicians do. They don't always ask for an engineering degree. It's a very old profession. Civil engineering has been around for thousands of years.

 

[minesweeper]

Another thought, maybe you can try civil engineering. Civil engineering is one of those jobs they sometimes let mathematicians do. They don't always ask for an engineering degree. It's a very old profession. Civil engineering has been around for thousands of years.

I find this post very odd. Civil engineering is one of the most tightly regulated fields.

 

[GODISMYSHADOW]

I find this post very odd. Civil engineering is one of the most tightly regulated fields.

Check out the requirements for posted civil engineering job openings. Some of them do accept a mathematician.

 

[joesmith]

,,,,,,and if it aint been mentioned there is always the Oil field,,
you'll do just great I am sure,
enjoy life,,
a joe in Texas

 

[Astro_Dude]

GODISMYSHADOW, from what I've seen, you need to be a PE to be a civil engineer. Most everything I've seen on PE exams is you can't even sit for them without a BE.

,,,,,,and if it aint been mentioned there is always the Oil field,,
you'll do just great I am sure,
enjoy life,,
a joe in Texas

I really should have learned more fluid dynamics...