No Topology Subforum? Discussing on General Maths

[cristo]

I don't really have any real input to this discussion, since I feel that the grouping should be done by the "real" mathematicians. However, I do agree with the point that "Graphs" should be dropped from the suggestion given by Chris for the forum titles. The main reason for this is the point that Moonbear mentions: if high school students see a forum with "graphs" in the title, they may not understand what the other words mean, or how they relate to maths, and post their questions about plotting functions in here. In fact, to some extent, this happens in the "differential geometry" forum from time to time: high school students post their geometry questions. I don't think that losing the "graphs" part of the title will be detrimental to the forum, since most people would, as matt says, group this with combinatorics.

Other than that, I think the suggestions are good. Thanks to Chris and Matt for taking the time to think about this!

 

[Chris Hillman]

I do agree with the point that "Graphs" should be dropped from the suggestion given by Chris for the forum titles. The main reason for this is the point that Moonbear mentions: if high school students see a forum with "graphs" in the title, they may not understand what the other words mean, or how they relate to maths, and post their questions about plotting functions in here.

Good point, I think I have to agree also.

I think I agree with everything Moonbear said, so we are still seeking more input and carefully considering our options, which include doing nothing if we can't reach a consensus.

Kummer, I agree that from the viewpoint of higher math, it makes good sense to put elementary number theory with algebra (e.g. since integers modulo p are important topics/examples in both subjects), but my decision to keep NT allied with Combinatorics is based upon a consideration of weight: bearing in mind what kinds of posts PF has received over the past year, we want to wind up with comparable traffic in each of the new forums. See also what Moonbear wrote for some more remarks on how we are formulating our criteria for what would make a good reorganization.

Here's my slightly revised "preproposal":

• Calculus and Miscellaneous
• Combinatorics and Number Theory
• Differential Equations and Dynamical Systems
• Linear and Modern Algebra
• Logic, Sets, and Categories
• Manifolds and Geometry
• Probability, Information Theory, and Statistics
• Topology and Analysis

The full proposal would include deciding how to write blurbs or a sticky giving examples of topics (with links to dictionary definitions at Springer on-line dictionary, mathworld but NOT WP since WP is unstable and unreliable) which belong in each forum. For example, "Graph Theory" with a link to a clear on-line definition at a stable website (Mathworld?) would be a possible topic listed under "Combinatorics and Number Theory". It might also be a good idea to end the sticky with a link to this thread labeled "how did we ever come up with this list?", to forestall protests from newbies who happen to be trained mathematicians! My vision is that if we get this right, typical newbies will delurk in "Calculus and Miscellaneous" and someone will point them at the sticky. Hopefully after a few initial goofs they'll get the point that they have a useful guideline for placing posts on a given topic.

BTW, like others here I have noticed that a large fraction of posts are currently rather obviously misplaced, e.g. zillions of questions about books not in the Book Recommendation forum. I think the key is not so much getting newbies to read a sticky before they delurk but having a really easy-to-use guide we can point them towards, something carefully written to be helpful to genuinely clueless newbies. I tend to think that writing this sticky (I tentatively suggest writing one sticky describing all the forums at PF, listing them the same way they appear on the main page, with appropriate indentations, i.e. a list of lists) is the most important part of this reorganization.

Question for mentors: is it awkward to move an entire thread containing several posts? If so, any technical innovations making this task easier would probably be very helpful. As we all agree, no matter how well-thought out our sticky and reorganization might be, there will always be those posters who just don't get it, so we want to minimize the trouble for mentors in dealing with their goofs.

 

[Moonbear]

The full proposal would include deciding how to write blurbs or a sticky giving examples of topics (with links to dictionary definitions at Springer on-line dictionary, mathworld but NOT WP since WP is unstable and unreliable) which belong in each forum. For example, "Graph Theory" with a link to a clear on-line definition at a stable website (Mathworld?) would be a possible topic listed under "Combinatorics and Number Theory".

Ooh, I like that idea. That would be really nice for the non-mathematicians just browsing around to get a better idea of what these strange words mean. And might inspire sufficient curiosity to pursue it further.

BTW, like others here I have noticed that a large fraction of posts are currently rather obviously misplaced, e.g. zillions of questions about books not in the Book Recommendation forum. I think the key is not so much getting newbies to read a sticky before they delurk but having a really easy-to-use guide we can point them towards, something carefully written to be helpful to genuinely clueless newbies.

I think a lot of that actually is the result of people landing here through Google, or similar, searches. They land in one of the subforums and sign up and start posting before realizing there's much, much, much more here (that happened when I first showed up...I was just lurking reading physics discussions having no idea what anyone was arguing over, and it wasn't until some time later I discovered there was an "other sciences" section with biology, chemistry and social sciences threads, which were what got me to "de-lurk" as you put it).

Question for mentors: is it awkward to move an entire thread containing several posts? If so, any technical innovations making this task easier would probably be very helpful. As we all agree, no matter how well-thought out our sticky and reorganization might be, there will always be those posters who just don't get it, so we want to minimize the trouble for mentors in dealing with their goofs.

Nope, it's pretty easy to move threads. With the current version of the forum software, it's even pretty easy to split up discussions and move only some of the posts in a thread to a new place...much easier than the old version we had. It's also pretty easy for us to send a "warning" that links to a particular post so we can inform someone their thread has been moved, where to, and give them a pointer to the guidelines (that's why I have the link to the guidelines in my signature...I don't have to keep typing it out when I send someone new a PM about where their thread moved).

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

One requirement a new proposal would need to meet is that it must not add forums to the main page.

 

[Hurkyl]

I do like the 8 forum titles Chris suggested.


Probability & statistics doesn't really fit well with logic, sets, & categories, so that split is a very good one... and I'm not sure if either of those two can be wedged in well with the other 6 forums.

Maybe topology & analysis can be reasonably merged with manifolds & geometry?


Greg, is it okay to add subfora? Maybe we could take Chris's list, rename "combinatorics and number theory" to "discrete math and number theory" and move logic, sets, and categories a subforum of that?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Greg, is it okay to add subfora? Maybe we could take Chris's list, rename "combinatorics and number theory" to "discrete math and number theory" and move logic, sets, and categories a subforum of that?

Yeah subfora is ok

 

[Chris Hillman]

I guess I could live with this

I do like the 8 forum titles Chris suggested.

Me too which is why this makes me wince:

Maybe topology & analysis can be reasonably merged with manifolds & geometry?...Maybe we could take Chris's list, rename "combinatorics and number theory" to "discrete math and number theory" and move logic, sets, and categories a subforum of that?

I think I prefer this:

• Calculus and Miscellaneous
• Some Advanced Topics
  • Combinatorics and Number Theory
  • Differential Equations and Dynamical Systems
  • Linear and Modern Algebra
  • Logic, Sets, and Categories
  • Manifolds and Geometry
  • Probability, Information Theory, and Statistics
  • Topology and Analysis

This would have the advantage of subtly encouraging unadventurous newbies to put their post right where--- most likely--- we want it, in "Calculus and Miscellaneous". As a side benefit, we might even be able to restore "Combinatorics, Graph Theory, and Number Theory".

Greg, does VB put a hard limit of seven subfora at each level? Is there really no possibility of eight math fora?

 

[Coin]

I don't mean to make things worse, but that might be even more confusing than the old system...

1. I would like to request that either "graphs" or "discrete math", one of these two phrases, show up SOMEWHERE. (Graphs can be assumed to be part of discrete math). Otherwise it is too confusing to me at least whether that subject goes under "combinatorics" or "sets".

2. Under the "some advanced topics..." system, would that mean that ALL of the math subfora would be demoted from full forums visible from the front page, to the little subscript thingies like sci.physics.strings is?

3. I was actually just now looking at the current math listings and trying to figure out whether posts about lie groups should go under "differential geometry" or "abstract algebra". Under the new system, I'm even more confused: would they go under "manifolds", "modern algebra" or "topology"? Manifolds I guess?

 

[Chris Hillman]

These are all issues which would be clarified in the suggested sticky listing topics which would be considered at PF to fall under each subforum.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Greg, does VB put a hard limit of seven subfora at each level? Is there really no possibility of eight math fora?

No, but we try to limit the front page size, I don't want it any longer. We can have some subfora but I'd like to keep the # of math main forums the same.

 

[Astronuc]

My only constructive comment right now is that we should not label the subforums according to the American university undergraduate's expectation of mathematics as a subsidiary subject to engineering.

Certainly not. I fret about the disconnect between mathematics and sciences and engineering. I'm certainly not up on the formalities of math (e.g. how various topics/categories relate to one another) as much as I wish to be, but therein lies the value of PF for me.

If you were to force me to make a pie in the sky suggestion right away (and I should be something positive, I suppose), then here's a whacky idea, based upon a 'bigger picture' of mathematics:

1. Introductory mathematics (What currently passes for "analysis")
2. Algebraic Topology and Geometry
3. Differential Equations and Dynamical Systems
4. Measure Theory and Probability
5. Foundations of Mathematics (Logic, sets, categories)
6. Number Theory (if we must - this seems to be the least used forum, and the one with the highest crackpot hit rate).

In HW, there are two categories: Precalculus Mathematics (All math courses prior to calculus) and Calculus & Beyond (All math courses from calculus onwards). Those two categories are certainly directed toward students, both HS and university. I think the forums are more formal and perhaps the categories should reflect the formal taxonomy of mathematics. Non-mathematicians really should learn this material.

Re: Item 6 - Number Theory - I think some people equate that with numerology, just as some equate astrology with astronomy.

And possibly a thread called "How do I do this integral, differentiate this, or find the limit as (x,y) tends to (0,0)", which take up a disproportionate amount of space.

These would be homework problems, which are appropriate for HW sections. Should general math be precalculus . . . . ? The non-homework forums have stickies about where to post HW problems, but I think some people don't pay attention.

 

[Chris Hillman]

My only constructive comment right now is that we should not label the subforums according to the American university undergraduate's expectation of mathematics as a subsidiary subject to engineering.

The American undergraduate believes that his university is a wholly owned subsidiary of the college football team

 

[JasonRox]

Linear Algebra and Calculus
Abstract Algebra
Differential Equations and Dynamical Systems
Analysis and Topology
Probability and Statistics
Combinatorics, Number Theory and Foundations

There we only need 6 forums.

 

[Chris Hillman]

Jason, I feel that your scheme would only add to the existing traffic imbalance, since linear algebra and calculus are already two of the most busiest topical areas at PF! Ameliorating this was one of the criteria we established earlier.

I still prefer the scheme I suggested in my Post #38, together with the proposed sticky listing examples of suitable topics in each subforum. I seek input from experience PF users, but please do read the three relevant threads and note prior discussion of criteria and the conflicting desiderata which we have previously agreed to try to balance!