Obama for President: Experienced Leader

[WhoWee]

By the way, folks, the phrase is "toe the line". It comes from dart competitions, when the toes of your leading foot aren't allowed to cross the throwing line. The rule is there to keep competitors from inching closer to the dart-board. Off-topic, I know, but sometimes these things grate on my nerves.

As in darts, it's fun some times to watch the participants "stand" on the side of their foot with one leg in the air for balance and their entire upper body leaned forward over the line - just saying. ()

 

[turbo]

BTW, in regard to the Gitmo soccer field's cost, how many soccer-fields has anybody in the US built in a communist country that doesn't want us there? Everything has to be shipped in and done on-site, as noted previously, but when you build a soccer-field in the US, you don't normally have to install air-conditioned guard towers, chain-link fences topped with razor-wire, etc. Unless somebody here has detailed knowledge of what was involved in building this field, I suggest that we drop this red herring now.

I know this thread is for the express purpose of bashing Obama, but it's not reasonable to blame him for the Pentagon's every expenditure on every military base around the world.

 

[WhoWee]

BTW, in regard to the Gitmo soccer field's cost, how many soccer-fields has anybody in the US built in a communist country that doesn't want us there? Everything has to be shipped in and done on-site, as noted previously, but when you build a soccer-field in the US, you don't normally have to install air-conditioned guard towers, chain-link fences topped with razor-wire, etc. Unless somebody here has detailed knowledge of what was involved in building this field, I suggest that we drop this red herring now.

I know this thread is for the express purpose of bashing Obama, but it's not reasonable to blame him for the Pentagon's every expenditure on every military base around the world.

President Obama promised to close this location within one year - in his 3rd year more than $700k was spent re-store soccer games. This isn't a red herring -it's a broken campaign promise with questionable spending.

 

[Gokul43201]

Waste of time? I doubt that. It think trade off is the more likely reasoning. I was aware of the lopsided vote on the defense spending bill when I made that previously post. That vote is far from indicative of a veto override from a Nancy Pelosi House and a Harry Reid Senate in the first ~year of his presidency. No, if Obama was determined to fulfill a campaign pledge, regardless of the political consequences, he likely could have had his way on Gitmo. One consequence might be a loss of the pull needed to get the pending health care bill though. I think it more likely that he saw the large political cost and backed down.

This is all plausible, but to do what you think he should have done, the veto would only have been the first step. He'd still need to get Congress to appropriate the funds to shut down Gitmo and transfer prisoners stateside. And there's no way that's going to happen.

 

[turbo]

This is all plausible, but to do what you think he should have done, the veto would only have been the first step. He'd still need to get Congress to appropriate the funds to shut down Gitmo and transfer prisoners stateside. And there's no way that's going to happen.

100% true. There is fear-mongering on both sides of the aisle regarding bringing the Gitmo prisoners to the US, housing them in our prisons, and trying them in our court-system. Also, there is the little detail that many of them can't be re-patriated, because the countries that they originated in won't take them back.

Obama's campaign statement re: Gitmo was unrealistic, though he probably thought he could drum up support for closing that prison if the public got behind it. He was wrong. There is only so much a sitting president can do. He is not a dictator, and in some cases, he can only be a cheerleader for causes when he needs the cooperation of Congress to achieve goals.

 

[mheslep]

Maybe, or maybe not:

Ben NelsonThat seems like the voting record of someone who doesn't always tow the party line (and whie it might make an interesting exercise to analyze every republican, that's way to much work).

Every Republican? Ever heard of a guy called Ron Paul?

But never mind him, I'm curious where, in general, you get the idea that Republicans "toe the party line" as compared to Democrats.

 

[daveb]

By the way, folks, the phrase is "toe the line". It comes from dart competitions, when the toes of your leading foot aren't allowed to cross the throwing line. The rule is there to keep competitors from inching closer to the dart-board. Off-topic, I know, but sometimes these things grate on my nerves.

I stand corrected!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I was in on the negotiations, so I'm in a good position to tell you exactly what happened. Originally, the bid was a conservative $50,000. As usual, the military did everything in it's power to keep costs down. However, the liberal press put their hands into the process and the price tag went up to $100,000. Then the Israeli lobby had their say and it went to $200,000. Next the Gay-Lesbian alliance spoke up and it went to $400,000. Finally President Obama said it should be $744,000 and that's where we are today.

 

[WhoWee]

I was in on the negotiations, so I'm in a good position to tell you exactly what happened. Originally, the bid was a conservative $50,000. As usual, the military did everything in it's power to keep costs down. However, the liberal press put their hands into the process and the price tag went up to $100,000. Then the Israeli lobby had their say and it went to $200,000. Next the Gay-Lesbian alliance spoke up and it went to $400,000. Finally President Obama said it should be $744,000 and that's where we are today.

Insightful

 

[mheslep]

This is all plausible, but to do what you think he should have done, the veto would only have been the first step. He'd still need to get Congress to appropriate the funds to shut down Gitmo and transfer prisoners stateside. And there's no way that's going to happen.

Back in 2009 with Pelosi Obama only needed a repeat of the previous non-specific funding bill. He declined to push for it in this case, though has done so in other very similar circumstances*. I suspect the flaws in his Gitmo plan - civilian show trials, AQ in the prison population - would have become painfully apparent for years should he have stayed the course.

* Obama[/PLAIN] threatens veto if pipeline decision is added to payroll tax cut

http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/obama-threatens-veto-of-defense-authorization-bill-20111117

 

[turbo]

Huffington Post (AOL) has a timely article on the soccer field.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/01/guantanamo-soccer-field_n_1314836.html

Chain-link fence (check) topped with razor-wire (check) with guard towers (check) and security cameras (I hadn't thought of that, but there appear to be plenty of them in the limited field of view of the photo). Plus everything had to be shipped in and erected on-site in a country that is quite hostile to our presence there. Comparing this soccer-field with a HS soccer-field in one's home-town is way past reasonable. And laying it all at Obama's feet is wrong, since he needs Congress to cooperate before closing the Gitmo prison.

 

[WhoWee]

Huffington Post (AOL) has a timely article on the soccer field.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/01/guantanamo-soccer-field_n_1314836.html

Chain-link fence (check) topped with razor-wire (check) with guard towers (check) and security cameras (I hadn't thought of that, but there appear to be plenty of them in the limited field of view of the photo). Plus everything had to be shipped in and erected on-site in a country that is quite hostile to our presence there. Comparing this soccer-field with a HS soccer-field in one's home-town is way past reasonable. And laying it all at Obama's feet is wrong, since he needs Congress to cooperate before closing the Gitmo prison.

The first link said the prisoners missed their small patch of dirt that had been used to play soccer. Did they really need a 28,000 square foot facility? Is the expense of $744,000 reasonable?

 

[turbo]

The first link said the prisoners missed their small patch of dirt that had been used to play soccer. Did they really need a 28,000 square foot facility? Is the expense of $744,000 reasonable?

Ask the Pentagon, and the intelligence agencies that are handling these prisoners. Apparently, they thought so, and we here on PF are not on the "need to know" list.

 

[Office_Shredder]

The first link said the prisoners missed their small patch of dirt that had been used to play soccer. Did they really need a 28,000 square foot facility? Is the expense of $744,000 reasonable?

You say 28,000 square feet as if they're living in the lap of luxury. Let's take a look at the playing field
http://www.kckrs.com/the-us-government-is-building-a-744000-soccer-field-for-guantanamo-bay-detainees/

28,000 square feet is half the area of a football field. It's not big, it's actually quite small

 

[WhoWee]

You say 28,000 square feet as if they're living in the lap of luxury. Let's take a look at the playing field
http://www.kckrs.com/the-us-government-is-building-a-744000-soccer-field-for-guantanamo-bay-detainees/

28,000 square feet is half the area of a football field. It's not big, it's actually quite small

After viewing the photo - I'd describe it as prison-chic - certainly not the lap of luxury.

Do you honestly think an expense of $744,000 (as a taxpayer) is reasonable or would you have preferred they found another way to let them play ball in an existing area - given the small area required?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Do you honestly think an expense of $744,000 (as a taxpayer) is reasonable or would you have preferred they found another way to let them play ball in an existing area - given the small area required?

Obviously I would have preferred them to have another solution which is equal in every way except it costs less, but that seems like a bit of a strawman. Was there such an available space? Is the cost of the field offset by a decreased need for security/decreased medical costs/increased safety? It's impossible for us to know because we simply don't have enough information

 

[WhoWee]

Obviously I would have preferred them to have another solution which is equal in every way except it costs less, but that seems like a bit of a strawman. Was there such an available space? Is the cost of the field offset by a decreased need for security/decreased medical costs/increased safety? It's impossible for us to know because we simply don't have enough information

The original story discussed a small patch of dirt - I don't know if it's still available or not?

Either way - the longer this issue is discussed - the campaign will be reminded that Gitmo is still open and the prior campaign promise is unfullfilled.

 

[HowardVAgnew]

I can't vote for Obama for two big reasons: His anti-church/state-separation campaign by way of supporting faith-based initiatives where certain religious institutions are funded with tax dollars, and his running mate's support of a federal mandate to ban majority religion-disapproved marriages.

That said ... yeah, the extreme divisiveness and refusal to cooperate especially on the right means it takes an extremely yielding diplomat to get anything accomplished at all. I like Ron Paul especially for his rationality on foreign affairs (but his economic doctrine is a religion whose reality has been disproven many times over), but -- much as I would like to challenge him on his economic doctrine -- if I had a chance to interview him but could only address one topic, it would be how he could expect to enact any of his proposals with such a deadlocked Congress (especially with his own party where they differ so vastly with his ideals).

I think a lot of people over-estimate a president's power to get things done. Even when Democrats had a majority in both the House and Senate, Republicans effectively killed almost all legislative efforts through filibustering ... the president has no power to overcome the willful minority preventing bills from coming up for a vote in Congress. The President can propose legislation, but cannot enact legislation on his (/her if we ever get a female president) own without it passing through the mine field of minority-party filibustering and other dirty obstructive tricks in Congress.

I would certainly love to hold Newt's feet to the fire for a lot of the hypocritical flip-flops, but if I could interview him and somehow force him to answer just one question, it would probably be why he railed so loudly against Democrats for filibustering when he was in Congress and calling it dirty tricks, yet I have not heard one word of complaint from him on his own party when they were voted out of a majority by the American people yet hold the nation hostage by filibustering necessary legislation and budget approvals to keep the country running.

 

[WhoWee]

I can't vote for Obama for two big reasons: His anti-church/state-separation campaign by way of supporting faith-based initiatives where certain religious institutions are funded with tax dollars, and his running mate's support of a federal mandate to ban majority religion-disapproved marriages.

Care to support and clarify a bit?

 

[mheslep]

...Ron Paul especially for his rationality on foreign affairs (but his economic doctrine is a religion whose reality has been disproven many times over), ...

I'd say the idea of borrowing $1.3T a year for out of control entitlement spending is the dis-proven religion.


(Over in the RP thread, perhaps you could briefly mention an aspect of Paul's economic position that has been disproved many times)

 

[Gokul43201]

Do you honestly think an expense of $744,000 (as a taxpayer) is reasonable or would you have preferred they found another way [...]?

I think it's probably not reasonable. I think it would be a lot cheaper if they shut down Gitmo and held these people locally.

<\glib>

 

[BobG]

The original story discussed a small patch of dirt - I don't know if it's still available or not?

Either way - the longer this issue is discussed - the campaign will be reminded that Gitmo is still open and the prior campaign promise is unfullfilled.

The latter is the real problem. 171 detainees, of which 5 have actually been convicted of anything. In fact, about half have been cleared for release, but can't currently be released to their home country and we don't want them released in the US (doesn't matter if they were innocent - just being suspects carries too strong a taint for most people).

Given that we're detaining innocent people (in addition to the 5 guilty people), I don't think it's too much to ask that they at least be detained in humane conditions.

 

[WhoWee]

The latter is the real problem. 171 detainees, of which 5 have actually been convicted of anything. In fact, about half have been cleared for release, but can't currently be released to their home country and we don't want them released in the US (doesn't matter if they were innocent - just being suspects carries too strong a taint for most people).

Given that we're detaining innocent people (in addition to the 5 guilty people), I don't think it's too much to ask that they at least be detained in humane conditions.

I don't think we're trying hard enough to give them back and there's NO logical reason to release them inside the US.

 

[russ_watters]

...and we don't want them released in the US (doesn't matter if they were innocent - just being suspects carries too strong a taint for most people).

Er, well, that and they aren't citizens nor legal immigrants.

Given that we're detaining innocent people (in addition to the 5 guilty people), I don't think it's too much to ask that they at least be detained in humane conditions.

Guilty or innocent of what*? If we're talking about people who were merely foreign fighters that were "innocent" of terrorism or war crimes charges, they are still foreign fighters and shouldn't just be released - much less released into the US.

*It is a logical fallacy to label anyone who is not convicted "innocent" in this context.

 

[HowardVAgnew]

Care to support and clarify a bit?

It should not be news to anyone who has followed Obama and Biden since the campaign days:

Faith Based Initiatives, a carryover from the Bush era, seeks to "theocratize" social services by replacing, say, government-run non-religious homeless shelters with church-run mission shelters funded by taxpayers. It replaces a genuine social safety network with subsidized religious organizations ... I lived in a mission shelter for a few months and while I was grateful for a shower and a bed to sleep on, I was effectively barred from getting work by rules which required attendance of 2-hour religious services three times per day and was required to work in exchange for the room and board, bundling magazines for recycling. While that seems fair, consider the shelter, being religious, pays no taxes, the operators of the shelter had no other source of funds yet were able to maintain expensive clothes and a late-model expensive car from the money they personally pocketted from a combination of donations to the shelter and the recycling operation they ran with essentially free labor. I had been promised that I did not actually need to be Christian myself, but I was very loudly and verbally chastized when I answered a question yelled loudly at me whether I am Christian.

As for Biden: He voted to support the "Defense of Marriage Act" in 1996, and several times throughout the presidential campaign of 2008 said he would support a federal-level ban on gay marriage.

Do you need more clarification?

 

[HowardVAgnew]

I'd say the idea of borrowing $1.3T a year for out of control entitlement spending is the dis-proven religion.


(Over in the RP thread, perhaps you could briefly mention an aspect of Paul's economic position that has been disproved many times)

Spending on social safety network programs is at among its lowest in decades, and the results are devastating. The Lasseiz-faire economic doctrine (the notion that everyone is better off if the market is free of taxes and regulation; by some interpretations by also prohibiting organized labor and not providing any social safety network and nothing owned by 'the public') has been tried many times. Child labor laws, ending company stores, breaking up monopolies like Standard Oil and AT&T, raising and implementing taxes, Roosevelt's New Deal and Kennedy's Medicare and Medicaid all chipped away at the "anything for profit is allowed" lasseiz-faire doctrine pushed by conservatives like Ron Paul. Another popular name for it is "trickle-down" economic theory ... under Reagan and W. Bush, taxes were cut and promised to equate to more jobs and more tax revenue because businesses would have more money to hire people and thus would hire more people and magically create new tax revenue at the same time, but both times (and previous attempts in previous administrations) it failed. Further, despite raising taxes several times, the economy actually improved under Clinton; if the lasseiz-faire/trickle down theory were correct, that should be impossible. The reality of economics is whatever is allowed to generate wealth will be exploited and in the end, the highest profit for the lowest expense will defeat any differing way (such as responsibility in avoiding negative externalities) without some sort of watch dog, and the overall well-being of a society is not so much weather it has a few very wealthy people, but whether the needs of the many are met.

 

[WhoWee]

It should not be news to anyone who has followed Obama and Biden since the campaign days:

Faith Based Initiatives, a carryover from the Bush era, seeks to "theocratize" social services by replacing, say, government-run non-religious homeless shelters with church-run mission shelters funded by taxpayers. It replaces a genuine social safety network with subsidized religious organizations ... I lived in a mission shelter for a few months and while I was grateful for a shower and a bed to sleep on, I was effectively barred from getting work by rules which required attendance of 2-hour religious services three times per day and was required to work in exchange for the room and board, bundling magazines for recycling. While that seems fair, consider the shelter, being religious, pays no taxes, the operators of the shelter had no other source of funds yet were able to maintain expensive clothes and a late-model expensive car from the money they personally pocketted from a combination of donations to the shelter and the recycling operation they ran with essentially free labor. I had been promised that I did not actually need to be Christian myself, but I was very loudly and verbally chastized when I answered a question yelled loudly at me whether I am Christian.

As for Biden: He voted to support the "Defense of Marriage Act" in 1996, and several times throughout the presidential campaign of 2008 said he would support a federal-level ban on gay marriage.

Do you need more clarification?

Your clarification is fine - now - can you support?

 

[WhoWee]

Spending on social safety network programs is at among its lowest in decades, and the results are devastating. The Lasseiz-faire economic doctrine (the notion that everyone is better off if the market is free of taxes and regulation; by some interpretations by also prohibiting organized labor and not providing any social safety network and nothing owned by 'the public') has been tried many times. Child labor laws, ending company stores, breaking up monopolies like Standard Oil and AT&T, raising and implementing taxes, Roosevelt's New Deal and Kennedy's Medicare and Medicaid all chipped away at the "anything for profit is allowed" lasseiz-faire doctrine pushed by conservatives like Ron Paul. Another popular name for it is "trickle-down" economic theory ... under Reagan and W. Bush, taxes were cut and promised to equate to more jobs and more tax revenue because businesses would have more money to hire people and thus would hire more people and magically create new tax revenue at the same time, but both times (and previous attempts in previous administrations) it failed. Further, despite raising taxes several times, the economy actually improved under Clinton; if the lasseiz-faire/trickle down theory were correct, that should be impossible. The reality of economics is whatever is allowed to generate wealth will be exploited and in the end, the highest profit for the lowest expense will defeat any differing way (such as responsibility in avoiding negative externalities) without some sort of watch dog, and the overall well-being of a society is not so much weather it has a few very wealthy people, but whether the needs of the many are met.

Please support - my bold.

 

[DrClapeyron]

I would vote for Obama if it weren't for a coworker's constant political talk. Is it me or do people who claim to be apolitical bring up politics more than anyone else? That and Obama never made the bank executives take a drug test when he gave them their welfare checks.

 

[WhoWee]

I would vote for Obama if it weren't for a coworker's constant political talk. Is it me or do people who claim to be apolitical bring up politics more than anyone else? That and Obama never made the bank executives take a drug test when he gave them their welfare checks.

It seems that every business owner (over the past 2-3 years) I talk with wants to discuss Obamacare and politics in general. Further, my industry is (currently) absolutely obsessed with politics.

 

[Gokul43201]

Spending on social safety network programs is at among its lowest in decades, and the results are devastating. ...

Please support - my bold.

From what I've seen, welfare spending has been roughly flat (say a 5-10 yr moving average) since the Nixon/Ford era, and tracks well with unemployment rate (Fig 2). So spending spikes during recessions and drops during better times. And this has happened through Dem and Rep administrations as well as Dem and Rep Congresses. If Fig 1 is close to correct for 2011 spending (it may not be), welfare spending is near a local maximum, not terribly unusual, given the depth of the recent recession and financial crisis.

Fig 1: Federal welfare spending as a fraction of GDP (numbers beyond 2010 are projections)

Fig 2: US unemployment rate

 

[mheslep]

I think welfare spending in constant dollars, per head (not pct GDP), tells me more of the picture.

Welfare spending per person is at an all time high, at the federal level double what it was back in 2000. I agree spending does tend to spike with recessions ('79-80, '90-91, '01, and '08), though nothing like now, even though unemployment in '80 was just as bad/worse.

State

 

[Gokul43201]

I think welfare spending in constant dollars, per head (not pct GDP), tells me more of the picture.

I guess the difference is because GDP has generally been growing much faster than the population. I think both figures are useful to look at. The spending vs GDP plot tells you something about government frugality (or lack thereof) in the context of welfare spending, while the per capita plot tells you about the benefits to recipients. So it's possible for the government to actually spend less (over time) as a fraction of GDP, and still have more money available for individuals to make the best of bad times. That sounds to me like the way to go, at least for the next few years.

 

[WhoWee]

I have to wonder if someone forgot to brief the President? On March 1, 2012 President Obama assured union supporters:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/01/obama-ill-buy-a-chevy-volt-after-my-presidency-ends/

"Obama: I’ll Buy A Chevy Volt After My Presidency Ends"

But, over the weekend there was a different type of announcement:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/business/gm-suspends-production-of-chevrolet-volt.html?_r=1

"General Motors said on Friday that it planned to halt production of the Chevrolet Volt for five weeks beginning later this month because dealers had more than they needed.

The suspension, which will result in temporary layoffs for 1,300 workers at the Detroit plant that builds the Volt, is another troubling sign for the plug-in hybrid, whose sales fell short of G.M.’s targets in 2011. G.M. officials had already backed away from projections that they could sell 45,000 Volts in the United States this year, instead saying that production would match demand. "

Congressman Darrell Issa said this about the announcement.:
"“Even as gas prices continue to climb, President Obama’s attempt to manipulate the free market and force consumers into purchasing electric vehicles like the G.M. Volt has failed,” Representative Darrell Issa, Republican of California, said in a statement. “Now some 1,300 workers will pay the price for this misguided experiment.”"

IMO - certainly hope the plant is operational in November 2012.

 

[mheslep]

I have to wonder if someone forgot to brief the President? On March 1, 2012 President Obama assured union supporters:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/01/obama-ill-buy-a-chevy-volt-after-my-presidency-ends/

"Obama: I’ll Buy A Chevy Volt After My Presidency Ends"

But, over the weekend there was a different type of announcement:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/business/gm-suspends-production-of-chevrolet-volt.html?_r=1

"General Motors said on Friday that it planned to halt production of the Chevrolet Volt for five weeks beginning later this month because dealers had more than they needed.

The suspension, which will result in temporary layoffs for 1,300 workers at the Detroit plant that builds the Volt, is another troubling sign for the plug-in hybrid, whose sales fell short of G.M.’s targets in 2011. G.M. officials had already backed away from projections that they could sell 45,000 Volts in the United States this year, instead saying that production would match demand. "

Congressman Darrell Issa said this about the announcement.:
"“Even as gas prices continue to climb, President Obama’s attempt to manipulate the free market and force consumers into purchasing electric vehicles like the G.M. Volt has failed,” Representative Darrell Issa, Republican of California, said in a statement. “Now some 1,300 workers will pay the price for this misguided experiment.”"

IMO - certainly hope the plant is operational in November 2012.

Those seem to be extraordinarily dumb comments by both the President and Rep Issa. Obama in one sentence ties all of his political opposition to the Volt. And for Issa he needs to consider that there might well have been no plant jobs at all without that Volt plant, and not just a five week outage.