Obama for President: Experienced Leader

[Jimmy Snyder]

... the employees of faith-based companies can often get free riders to provide contraceptives even if the companies refuse to pay for the service.

Then why do we need a law to enforce what would happen on its own anyway?

 

[russ_watters]

Anyway, this a thread about Obama's candidacy. The point is that his statements are consistent with Obama's image as progressive and a large body of the US wants progressive.

That leads well into another point I was wanting to bring up:

First off, I'd like to see your evidence that the "US wants progressive". I think the mid-term elections are evidence it doesn't. And (citation later), it has been true for a long time that the US self-identifies itself as more conservative than liberal.

In addition - and more relevant than today - even though the republican candidates are actively campaigning to their conservative base, more Americans still say Obama is too liberal than say Santorum or Romney are to conservative:

Americans' perceptions of Obama's ideology have changed significantly since he was elected. Four years ago, when Gallup first asked this question about Obama while he was competing for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, a plurality, 47%, thought his views were about right. At that time, 37% said his views were too liberal, compared with today's 51%.

The perceptions that Obama is too extreme to the left of the ideological spectrum than his competitors are to the right are likely due to three factors. First, Americans are more familiar with Obama than with either of his challengers, as evidenced by the smaller percentage without an opinion of Obama's political views (4%) compared with Romney's (9%) or Santorum's (13%).

Second, for many years Americans have been roughly twice as likely to self-identify as conservative rather than liberal. Thus, the odds are probably greater that a Democratic politician would be perceived as too liberal than that a Republican candidate would be perceived as too conservative.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152954/H...com&utm_campaign=sharing#.T0ebqHvZQBQ.twitter

In other words, many people who voted for Obama thought he was more moderate than he really is. Now after seeing him in office, they realize just how liberal he is.

Now for the last part, there may be an issue of biased self-reporting at work and it is something that I've perceived a lot at PF: liberals, even ones that are pretty far to the left, often self-label as "moderates" (a few even as conservative!) even though they aren't. But 40% to 20% is still a big gap.

On the other hand, the poll also reports that Obama has roughly the same split of people agreeing vs disagreeing with him on the issues as those other two candidates. However, this may result from Obama's actions not following his beliefs due to being beaten toward the center by the Republicans. For example, he was pushing for a second stimulus, which he never got, at about the same time as he was signing debt control legislation. This can make his "policies" vs his beliefs hard to reconcile.

 

[Evo]

Each candidate has their own thread. Please keep all discussions specifically about the canidate.

 

[WhoWee]

Your twisting the meaning; the point of healthcare reform is that everyone gets access to healthcare financially and this should be regardless of what beliefs their employers hold.

I think one of the problems the President has with the healthcare reform is that it hasn't been fully implemented yet and details continue to seep out that some embrace and others reject - this is a good example. Personally, when I see a contraceptive mandate - I have to wonder how close these plans will ultimately come to being the "Cadillac Plans" the President originally intended to punish?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-02-22-health-care-revision_N.htm

"A proposed 40% tax on high-priced or "Cadillac" health care plans would begin in 2018 instead of 2013, as originally proposed by the Senate. And the definition of a high-end policy would increase to $27,500 for a family, instead of $23,000.

The Senate's version of the tax, which was projected to raise $150 billion over 10 years, was opposed by labor unions. House Democrats, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi, had raised reservations about its impact. A typical family policy costs more than $13,000 in 2009, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, indicated that there would be support from labor leaders for Obama's new proposal. "Working families deserve health insurance that covers more and costs less," he said."

Please note the annual cost of these plans - premiums of over $2,000 per month before the elimination of the lifetime cap and other mandates.

 

[Pythagorean]

First off, I'd like to see your evidence that the "US wants progressive".

You've skewed my words here with selective quoting... go back and read the sentence again and compare to what you've written. Once you've done that, look at the link below.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/barack-obama-presidential-job-approval.aspx

On the particular issue we are discussing, you can see there's still a large body of the US supporting his decision (about half).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152963/Contraception-Debate-Divides-Americans-Including-Women.aspx

It's going to come down to swing votes in the end, which means those of us that are looking for the lesser evil. When it comes to a choice between Santorum and Obama, it will be Obama for me. Romney and Obama... I might not even bother voting. I would say they're about equally the lesser evil; Obama is just smoother on stage. Then again, maybe a smooth talker is better for foreign affairs.

And of course, remember that approval ratings don't tell you who people think is the lesser evil. I may not approve of a lot of what Obama does, but that doesn't mean I want Santorum as president if that was the alternative.

 

[Hobin]

Then again, maybe a smooth talker is better for foreign affairs.

It definitely is.

 

[ThomasT]

It's going to come down to swing votes in the end, which means those of us that are looking for the lesser evil. When it comes to a choice between Santorum and Obama, it will be Obama for me. Romney and Obama... I might not even bother voting. I would say they're about equally the lesser evil; Obama is just smoother on stage. Then again, maybe a smooth talker is better for foreign affairs.

I think Obama's personality is better for an American figurehead ... given that other things are equal, which I don't think they are. That is, of the three you mentioned, Obama is clearly the best choice, imho.

 

[Pythagorean]

What about the employee's beliefs?

Employees aren't forced to take contraceptive... nobody is... or what are you implying?

And I didn't twist the meaning in the slightest, the paradigm is slanted from the start. Being against a mandate does not mean that one wants the total opposite mandated instead. ie: just because I think that a contraception mandate is entirely unneccessary that does not mean that I am against the use/purchase/etc of contraception.

Nobody said you were...

I think that the mandate is being unfairly posed as a matter of 'women's health' when it is nothing more than another purposely divisive policy that strips individuals of their freedom of choice.

How?

If an individual (woman in this case) is employed in a job that has health benefits and they are unable to afford birth control out of pocket, then they probably have larger problems

So what?

(I paid for my college GF's pills out of pocket: we got it from a corner pharmacy, unsubsidized, from a 'normal' doctor (not planned parenthood) for ~$15/mo).

So what?

Making birth control 'free' to women does NOT change the fact that many people still are not responsible for themselves and make bad decisions anyhow.

So what? This policy reduces the chance that their irresponsibility will result in another mouth for the US to feed. It saves money by removing that burden.

This policy is purely idealogical and has very narrow real impact compared to the constriction of freedom imposed.

You still have yet to demonstrate freedoms taken away from individual employee.

To put this in different terms: where is the problem inherent in the system that requires such a change that it is necessary to step on individual's conscience and personal freedoms?

No individual's rights are being stepped on. Insurance companies and religious institutions are not individuals. Birth control is simply not being discriminated against as a medical issue. It's religious institution that wanted to be the exception, not many other employers even recognized this as some special case of health.

 

[Hobin]

I think Obama's personality is better for an American figurehead ... given that other things are equal, which I don't think they are. That is, of the three you mentioned, Obama is clearly the best choice, imho.

Well, if it were clear, it's strange that so many people talk about the presidential campaign and who's going to win, isn't it? (I agree with you, though.)

 

[WhoWee]

I don't know what's best for the whole, and I don't like it when people pretend they do. I also don't trust people that claim to; I'm cynical like that.

That's how our law system is built, free-market and all, Hobbes, Lock, etc...

If someone is labeled a "smooth talker" - don't they run the risk that people will not trust them?

 

[Hobin]

I think you misunderstood the question and the problem. Moreover, you're projecting local Dutch custom on the US. AFAIK, he made a good point.

Wait, what? I'm from the Netherlands, and I agree with something that's widely agreed on in the Netherlands (among other countries), therefore I am 'projecting' local Dutch custom on the US? That's not an argument at all.

 

[Pythagorean]

I think one of the problems the President has with the healthcare reform is that it hasn't been fully implemented yet and details continue to seep out that some embrace and others reject - this is a good example. Personally, when I see a contraceptive mandate - I have to wonder how close these plans will ultimately come to being the "Cadillac Plans" the President originally intended to punish?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-02-22-health-care-revision_N.htm

"A proposed 40% tax on high-priced or "Cadillac" health care plans would begin in 2018 instead of 2013, as originally proposed by the Senate. And the definition of a high-end policy would increase to $27,500 for a family, instead of $23,000.

The Senate's version of the tax, which was projected to raise $150 billion over 10 years, was opposed by labor unions. House Democrats, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi, had raised reservations about its impact. A typical family policy costs more than $13,000 in 2009, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, indicated that there would be support from labor leaders for Obama's new proposal. "Working families deserve health insurance that covers more and costs less," he said."

Please note the annual cost of these plans - premiums of over $2,000 per month before the elimination of the lifetime cap and other mandates.

Thanks for the informative post. I can't argue with your concerns. I certainly don't think Obama is the white knight, here. All I can say is that this issue (cadillac plans) is somewhat obscure and probably won't impact his candidacy much.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It's going to come down to swing votes in the end, which means those of us that are looking for the lesser evil.

I'm tired of always voting for the lesser evil. I'm changing tactics this year.

 

[Pythagorean]

If someone is labeled a "smooth talker" - don't they run the risk that people will not trust them?

The people (me) labeling them smooth talker already don't trust them as much as they (Obama) would like. Still, the point is that most Obama supporters don't see it the way I do. They take Obama as 100% genuine. The fact that he's a good smooth talker will only help him with the majority of his votes.

Also, it's not like those of us that think that think the other candidates are squeaky clean. For us, it's a choice between good liars and bad liars, but they're all liars.

 

[Pythagorean]

I'm tired of always voting for the lesser evil. I'm changing tactics this year.

I've considered not voting before as a "tactic" (the tactic would be to give up on caring, thus lowering my stress levels).

What did you have in mind?

 

[MarcoD]

Wait, what? I'm from the Netherlands, and I agree with something that's widely agreed on in the Netherlands (among other countries), therefore I am 'projecting' local Dutch custom on the US? That's not an argument at all.

God man. He asked what's wrong with the system, and you responded with what I consider basically a platitude, you didn't even bother to answer the question. If you want to say anything, then bring arguments to the table. And, in case you forgot, I am Dutch too.

 

[ThomasT]

If someone is labeled a "smooth talker" - don't they run the risk that people will not trust them?

Sure. I don't particularly trust Obama any more than the others. I just don't think he's screwed anything up yet, and I don't think he will. He'll do, I'm guessing, basically what's expected of him by the status quo. Even though I'd like to see some changes in that status quo, it's gotten us to the America of today which is a pretty good place to live for most of us.

In terms of what they can be expected to do, maybe it would turn out to be a coin toss between Obama and Romney. But, assuming that other things are essentially equal, I think that Obama projects a better image for an American president at this time.

 

[Hobin]

God man. He asked what's wrong with the system, and you responded with what I consider basically a platitude, you didn't even bother to answer the question. If you want to say anything, then bring arguments to the table. And, in case you forgot, I am Dutch too.

*rereads* My apologies, I seem to have misread the question. (Yes, I did not forget you were Dutch.) It was the 'projecting local Dutch custom' that tends to get on my nerves.

 

[MarcoD]

*rereads* My apologies, I seem to have misread the question. (Yes, I did not forget you were Dutch.) It was the 'projecting local Dutch custom' that tends to get on my nerves.

Well, I am sorry, but you do that. The US is a continent with 300M people and has different problems than the Netherlands, which is, in respect to that, a village filled with Hobbits.

As an example, I've read your remark on the right to bear arms. Well, if you would move with family from the Netherlands to somewhere in the outback of the US where it takes police about an hour to arrive at your doorstep, you wouldn't know how fast you would end up buying a gun to defend your family just in case. So please take into respect that it is just a different country.

 

[Hobin]

As an example, I've read your remark on the right to bear arms. Well, if you would move with family from the Netherlands to somewhere in the outback of the US where it takes police about an hour to arrive at your doorstep, you wouldn't know how fast you would end up buying a gun to defend your family just in case. So please take into respect that it is just a different country.

I don't disagree with that. I simply think it's a relatively unimportant issue when it comes to electing a presidential candidate.

 

[BobG]

Every female already had access to birth control, his policy just makes sure that someone else is paying for it.

He basically constructed a straw man and beat it down with his 'contraception mandate'. What deficiency was he honestly correcting? This 'separation philosophy' is coming at the expense of everyone's choice. What is the harm in allowing someone (or a religious orgnization...) a choice in what medical coverage they buy? Freedom is constricted via the President's policies (with this being the latest in a long line), I don't see how there is any other way to look at it.

I'm far from being a religious person, but President Obama (and his cohort) are waging a war on freedoms, starting with Religion. If (reasonable) Religious freedom can be thrown to the wayside by the government so easilly, what other freedoms should I be prepared to give up? Women (and men) already had the freedom to buy contraception, but now they lack the freedom to NOT buy contraception (via paying for insurance).

I'm divided on this issue.

I don't think the government should be able to require employers to offer health insurance at all and, aside from preventing sham policies or fraud, shouldn't be dictating what services have to be provided by health insurance policies purchased and/or operated by employers.

Whether an employer offers health insurance and the cost of that health insurance is just part of the overall compensation package an employee should consider before deciding to accept the job. Not providing health insurance will put an employer at a competitive disadvantage in attracting employees, but it shouldn't be illegal.

But, if the government can require employers to provide health insurance and dictate what those policies have to cover, then I don't see any justification for exempting a business that just happens to be owned by a religious group. The mandate covers university employees and hospital employees. Running a university and/or hospital is extending beyond strictly religious functions and the university/hospitals should be subject to the same laws as universities/hospitals owned by non-religious entities.

Women (and men) already had the freedom to buy contraception, but now they lack the freedom to NOT buy contraception (via paying for insurance).

Don't employees of a private business also lack the same freedom? Do Catholic employees get a discount on their health insurance just because they don't plan to use the free contraceptives their employer's plan provides? And what happens when the company I work for donates to a super-PAC for a pro-abortion candidate? Should employees that oppose that candidate get a special refund from their employer to free them up from supporting a candidate with moral views incompatible with theirs?

In other words, I don't think this works on an individual employee basis.

 

[Alfi]

http://www.google.ca/search?q=‘Afri...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

playing a race card?

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.google.ca/search?q=‘Afri...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

playing a race card?

I don't see it that way. I think a candidate should be able to communicate directly with special interest groups. At the same time, they should expect content to leak and can run the risk of being considered too biased with that group (whatever group that might be - trial lawyers for instance).

 

[mheslep]

whatever group that might be

Whatever group? You would defend 'Whites for Newt'? 'White Men for Santorum'?

 

[WhoWee]

Whatever group? You would defend 'Whites for Newt'? 'White Men for Santorum'?

If they want to run the risk of such a collaboration - it's not a problem for me - although it would probably be a big problem for them.

 

[WhoWee]

The President recently apologized for the burning of religious materials and has vowed to investigate.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-27/obama-apologizes-for-koran-burning-as-afghan-riots-continue.html

I don't think it's fair to attack the President for his apology - he was put in a difficult position by news reports - IMO.

However, I'm a bit confused about the original source of these reports? Who broke this story?

 

[Alfi]

How about a balance? We will burn 1000 bibles in competence.

Book for book ... let's burn them all. And get on with life.

 

[WhoWee]

How about a balance? We will burn 1000 bibles in competence.

Book for book ... let's burn them all. And get on with life.

Our President was blind sided and our soldiers were shot - I think the source of the leak is important and may impact the re-election campaign.

 

[Alfi]

Our President was blind sided and our soldiers were shot - I think the source of the leak is important and may impact the re-election campaign.

I can agree that sources are important. Re-election ? not so much. There is no competition.

 

[MarcoD]

We will burn 1000 bibles in competence.

Yeah well, your book isn't their book. Right?

 

[WhoWee]

My point is this - if this account is accurate:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/ap-7-afghans-killed-in-afghan-protests-over-koran-burning-022212/

"Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said after the books had been mistakenly given to troops to be burned at a garbage pit without realizing it.

“It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials,” Allen said Tuesday, one day after Afghan workers at the garbage pit found the books. “It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it we immediately stopped and we intervened.”"

How did this apparent mistake turn into an international incident requiring President Obama and generals to apoligize?

 

[SHISHKABOB]

My point is this - if this account is accurate:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/ap-7-afghans-killed-in-afghan-protests-over-koran-burning-022212/

"Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said after the books had been mistakenly given to troops to be burned at a garbage pit without realizing it.

“It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials,” Allen said Tuesday, one day after Afghan workers at the garbage pit found the books. “It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it we immediately stopped and we intervened.”"

How did this apparent mistake turn into an international incident requiring President Obama and generals to apoligize?

because there are a few people out there who react violently to the burning of Korans?

 

[MarcoD]

Desecrating a copy of the Quran is punishable by imprisonment in some countries (life imprisonment in Pakistan, according to Article 295-B of the Penal Code) and has been punishable by death in Afghanistan, Somalia and Pakistan.

From Wikipedia, Quran desecration. I am guesstimating that to a number of them, western troops are now free game, effective immediately. Like I said, somewhere in between a major clusterfluff and dung happens.

 

[SHISHKABOB]

If the burning was nothing more than a mistake - how did anyone know what was being burned?

in your own post the quote mentions how Afghan workers found the burnt remains. One of them probably either got upset about it and told people, or just plain told people and then they got upset.

 

[WhoWee]

I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear my support is behind any Republican candidate that runs against President Obama. However, I think this issue should be off limits in the campaign.