On the issue of kids not pursuing engineering/science/math these days

[sportsstar469]

So, what is the moral of the story? You didn't really make a point that fit the topic.

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

 

[Klockan3]

i was just explaining my background in math. it fit the topic just fine./

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

 

[Sankaku]

well that's my situation, sorry for the long rant.

So, you did well at math when young. You were put in a class that moved quickly but you then had difficulty. You fell behind and then got demotivated - bouncing around in marks depending on whether you got tested on something you knew or not. Now you are finding part of math easy and part hard. You can do well if coached by good teachers but still have holes in your understanding that will take work.

Seems like you prove my point exactly.

 

[sportsstar469]

But the deal is that he weren't talking about you, he were talking about people in general. Anyway, it sounds like your problem is mostly that you don't personally care about maths, not that you can't do it.

werent?
anyway he did mention me in his post. but all that aside i am curious what my deal is. and i thought maybe i could get some more insight on my math abilities by giving some information about myself. although I am sure no one can tell fro mthe internet but its worth a try i guess. also it explains why I am not interested in doing engineering or math teaching as my profession.

i think i might be a combo. i don't care but i also can't do it. it just seems like whenever i go to the tutor or the teachers(good teachers who are nice and explain things i na variety of ways) it just goers right through me and as theyre explaining it I am thinking oh man i didnt get that and they keep trying to make me explain it and I am finally like yeah i got it...and walk out as confused as i came in.

 

[symbolipoint]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

 

[sportsstar469]

sportsstar469 has expressed his particular case why some students do not pursue Engineering/Math/Science. In contrast to so many students who do poorly in Mathematics, sportsstar469 has REPEATED the typical sequence of Math courses, and ASKED for help eventually, when he needed help, and is currently learning the course topics.

sportsstar469 has also indicated some possibly poor counseling & placement problem as he reveals in his enrollments and troubles of beginning Algebra and "Intermediate Algebra" in high school. A student would commonly need to have understood most of Algebra 1 and maintain some knowledge as a requirement to successfully studying Intermediate Algebra; The "Intermediate" course of Algebra is more advanced and an extension from Algebra 1. His being placed into Intermediate Algebra without first passing Algebra 1 was a mistake. Other general problems like this might occur in other schools, although I have only been aware of a few things like this.

i would normally agree with you, that intermediate algebra is a higher level than algebra one since in college that is how it works. but in high school intermediate algebra was algebra 1 at a much slower pace. i never truly passed an algebra classs till i got to high school, so i was pretty pleased when i got an A in my first class, and then i got an A in my 6 week algebra 2/trig course. idk why but I've just not cared much about school this semester.

by the way youll be happy to know chemistry is going fine. those conversions are so easy to me now, it makes me laugh to think they were hard. i mean i went from not being able to do the conversions, to solving limiting reagent problems by using the conversions at the first step! so i have come some ways./ it still takes a minute or to to go from something like a teragram/gigaliters to pounds/gallons or something like that but I am pretty good at it now

 

[Phyisab****]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

 

[comp_math]

While people may say one got to do science for the love of it, wait till you are married and have kids, have a mortgage to pay, etc. Then it will seem like your science job isn't really paying much. Also, you spend all your time doing science, and having not much time with your family or other things.

And by the way, just let your kids do what they are interested in, whether it is business or science, or whatever.

 

[avant-garde]

Hmmm... most of these arguments seem to be focused on science/physics, but how effectively does it describe CS/engineering?

 

[Sankaku]

This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude.

So true. So true. (I liked your rant)

 

[Topher925]

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds.

I would also like to add to this what kids, and by kids I mean me when I was a kid, are taught success to be. When in HS it was drilled into our minds that success was a high class job like a CEO at a big company, a fast car, a big boat, and a trophy wife with boobs the size of Australia. Bottom line, you are nothing unless you have status and money. Therefor, the majority of my classmates went on to pursue degrees in finance, business, law, or medicine in order to make money and be "successful".

I honestly think that society is starting to turn it around though. I'm now seeing a lot more science fairs and things like FIRST robotics that I used to. Plus when you have the president saying that the country needs more scientists and engineers since the financial system is retarded and our manufacturing base is gone, it at least gives you a little bit of hope.

 

[Troponin]

Well this thread has degenerated a little, take your personal story to another thread. But seriously, I don't think the answer to this question is that complicated. In my opinion it is some weighted combination of:

*warning this turned into a pretty angry rant by the end, sorry to be a downer but I guess part of me really feels this way*

1. From a young age, kids are taught by society in general and unfortunately, often their parents and teachers, that math and science are for geeks and nerds. Elementary school science is also taught to the lowest common denominator, which is really damn low when your in elementary school. I knew more about science in elementary school than my teachers, so that wasn't exactly going to capture the interest of anyone who had talent.

2. If for some reason you make it to middle school while maintaining an interest in math/science, you still have 6 years of low quality schooling to wade through. If you decide you really really want to be a scientist, it really doesn't matter. All you can do is keep getting A's in classes that are way too simple and unrewarding. 6 years is a long long time when you are 12.

3. If you manage to graduate high school with good grades because it was really easy or because you actually believed grandpa or someone that it would make your life better someday, you're left with the decision of actually going to college for math/science. This is when you realize math and science are more difficult than the majors of your classmates by orders of magnitude. Then you consider that your roommate is a heavy drinking business major with a cocaine habit who still gets A's in all his classes because it's that easy. This guy is going to make more money than you and have a fun time doing it. While the math/science guy is going to have to dedicate himself in a way those other guys will never understand. Subsequently, you will be rewarded by realizing you can't get a good job with that physics BS that you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to earn. Now you need to take 5 more years to get a Ph. D., with of course all the obstacles that stand in the way of that. Hopefully you really do love math/science for their intrinsic beauty or you may be near suicidal at this point. This is when you look back on your life and all you can say is damn. There really is something to be said for taking the easy way out.

It really chaps my cheeks when I hear "our kids aren't pursuing math and science the sky is falling!" You know who else isn't pursuing math and science? All the poseurs who wrote that stupid story. Why don't you take up your end up the rope a**holes. Why aren't people pursuing math and science? Because its damn hard and it isn't at all obvious that your work will be reasonable rewarded. Now of course someone is going to say as they already have on this thread "of course you aren't entitled to anything just because you worked hard and got a physics degree." I'm not saying you are. But if you're worse off than the average business student, it's really a piss poor incentive for people to go into math and science.

Okay, this is exactly what I 'wanted' to say, only explained much, much better. I agree 100%, and am actually a little jealous that the point is made so much better than mine. lol

 

[sportsstar469]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people, and you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math. I am not buying that my problem is i don't care, or that i can do it with good teachers. i have a good teacher now and i don't know the stuff really. i also do not absorb anything she or the tutors say when igo for extra help. il ladmit this semester i haven't done the homewerks, but i have been to class everyday for extra help, and have gone for tutoring every day so it equals out...

but yeah like isaid some people just can't learn it even when its explained to them over and over a thousand times. and for all you people on here who are good at math and are telling others they don't work hard...shame on you./

although i am not trying as hard as i can i will admit that! i also get no benefit when going for the tutoring sessions./

 

[MissSilvy]

i still feel the notion that everybody can do math is very ignorant. you guys are science/math people

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above. What most people lack is the background and desire to do so. I'm afraid that most people I know are nose-to-the-bark on a particular tree instead of looking at the forest, if you understand my meaning.

The excuses 'I'm not a math person/I wasn't nurtured when I was young/I don't have the neural connections necessary to do math' to be very stupid. You're essentially blaming your shortcomings on something that's a fraction of the entire experience. It's like saying how you twisted your leg that one time during peewee baseball and that's why you never made it to the big leagues. There's far, far more to it than that and the reason most people seek refuge in these inane excuses is that they take the pressure off of you; after all, how could you HELP that your parents didn't make you do calculus before you were 10 or that your brain isn't two times as fast as a normal persons? Your failure at math simply MUST be due to things beyond your control. Or is it?

 

[Sankaku]

you guys don't realize how much people struggle with math.

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

 

[sportsstar469]

No, you don't realize that we (who you think are 'good at math') have to work just as hard, worry that we are not brilliant, and get confused just like everyone else. There are very few people who are genius level in math. All the rest of us just work hard because we desperately WANT to understand. Don't worry about comparing yourself to other people.

If you have some foundational part of math missing from earlier in your schooling, it will make large parts of the subject hard to grasp. Once you have filled in the missing puzzle pieces, everything else will make sense (with normal hard work).

Otherwise, you are just handicapped and should give up now. I will let you make that decision.

sure everyone can do some sort of math, but not everyone can do high level math and that's fact. and no you don't get AS confused as others. I've spoken to people who are in calculus 3 classes which is probably much lower than most people here who are on the road to physics. they say calc 1 was easy, and calc 2 they started struggling. these people got c pluses in calc 2 so they're not really math wizards. my school has remedial classes which start at fractions and whole numbers lol. not everyone has the ability to do math. i still HATE fractions and decimals. I've been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower. id like to switch to psychology but i assume you need a lot of math to get a phd inpsych? i know you need at least stats.

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

 

[Sankaku]

ive been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower.

With your attitude toward learning, I hope you never become a school teacher.

"Sorry little Jimmy, you just suck at math and there is nothing you can do about it!"

You would be all kinds of inspiration. In fact, you would be propagating exactly the kind of unfairness that made you hate math in the first place.

If pointing that out makes me an ***, then so be it.

 

[avant-garde]

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

 

[MissSilvy]

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

While I agree, the statement may have been a bit unnecessarily harsh, sitting here and whining instead of trying to remedy your situation makes you seem a bit silly. And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

 

[Klockan3]

Everyone CAN do math, if you're of normal intelligence or above.

While I agree that sportsstar469 is a bit overly negative I don't agree with this. It is very easy to overestimate what "normal" intelligence is since most of your friends and such comes from the upper tiers since similar attracts.

Think like this, only ~15% of graduating HS students even take the first calculus class so those are certainly not a good representation of normal, you will have to go back to middle school and look at those. And yes, there most do struggle with simple things like fundamental algebra. There are just like 5 rules they need to learn, it can't be that hard right?

The problem is that if you have a bit of talent for maths then you will not see the problem those face. You will just see it like this since you don't notice the difference between doing maths and following a recipe from a cookbook:

Basically, if you can READ any text and comprehend those ideas, then you can do MATH. Math and reading are symbolic in nature.

Edit:

And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

If you read the story you would see that this isn't the case, this is coming after a lot of trying.

Edit edit: And yes, while maths is hard for everyone it starts to get hard at different stages and that is certainly not something that only comes from psychological effects. Also even for the talented it is usually harder than other subjects anyway, the easy way out is always tempting. With this I want to say that there certainly are people who don't do any maths who are really smart, and most who study some kind of maths later do underestimate their place on the intellectual gauss curve. You really do feel like an idiot when you study something you have no clue about. And since you never study something you understand in maths you will feel like an idiot constantly.

 

[clope023]

sure everyone can do some sort of math, but not everyone can do high level math and that's fact. and no you don't get AS confused as others. I've spoken to people who are in calculus 3 classes which is probably much lower than most people here who are on the road to physics. they say calc 1 was easy, and calc 2 they started struggling. these people got c pluses in calc 2 so they're not really math wizards. my school has remedial classes which start at fractions and whole numbers lol. not everyone has the ability to do math. i still HATE fractions and decimals. I've been contemplating switching my degree from premed to elementary education since math requirements are much lower. id like to switch to psychology but i assume you need a lot of math to get a phd inpsych? i know you need at least stats.

but yeah telling me to give up now makes you an ***./

calc 3 sounds hard but it really was the easiest of the calcs, calc 1 was hardest followed by calc 2 for btw I started college in remedial algebra; physics undergrad majors take calc1-3 followed by differential equations, partial differentials and linear algebra and perhaps 1 or 2 more maths not much more than engineering undergrads (physicists know math better though, god forbid an ee in my school is without his TI-89 ugh)

if I had stuck to what I had inate ability with I would've been an art major (and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both); I eventually found math/physics quite beautiful even though I was struggling with it so I stuck with it

so yes genetics has a say in everything that you do but anyone ANYONE can make progress and yes understand math you just have to put in the hours, my friends who are math majors work their assess off for hours in the library everyday for their classes, they sometimes don't go home and sleep over in the math department so they can get up just study more right away for their exams, it takes that kind of dedication in some instances the subject can be that hard but its not impossible

 

[arunma]

Finally this thread got moved to a more appropriate forum.

I haven't read through all the posts, so forgive me if this has already been stated. I noticed in the OP that Friedman points out that the percentage of scientists who are American is what is decreasing. Those of us who are Americans and physics grad students can probably attest to the following fact: we are essentially minorities in our own departments. Maybe I'm flat out wrong, but I wonder if part of the problem regarding the lack of American scientists is that Americans are now finding it difficult to get into our own graduate schools, because we are competing with applicants from overseas. Unlike Americans, students in China and, to a lesser extent, India are trained to do physics problems (which isn't the same thing as studying physics), and prepare much longer for the GRE than we do. That's why most of us have pGRE scores in the 40th to 50th %-ile, whereas our fellow grad students from overseas are scoring in the 90s. Of course I'm all for letting people into grad school on the basis of merit, but something has gone terribly wrong when American taxpayers are footing the bill to educate so many students from other countries while denying that education to our own citizens.

At this point you all probably think I'm some Southern racist guy who wants to close off our borders. I assure you that I take no issue with immigration from other countries. In fact, in principle I don't even have problem with immigration for the purpose of going to grad school here. In fact, both of my parents emigrated here from India so that my dad could go to grad school, so I recognize that there is some value in bringing foreign students to study here. But I think that we're going overboard when 8 students out of a first year physics graduate class of 15 are non-Americans (this is the typical ratio in my department, and I've heard that other departments are the same). It should be no surprise that America isn't producing American scientists; we're too busy producing scientists for other nations! If we want more Americans to go into the physical sciences, then why not require that public schools admit a larger percentage of Americans?

I'd like to consider a toy model here. In your typical physics graduate program, you get around 200 applications a year, and admit something like 30 students. Assuming the citizen to non-citizen ratios of admitted and matriculating students are the same, this means that only 15 of the admitted students are Americans. I have trouble believing that the next 10 or so Americans on the list of applicants are so woefully underqualified as to not merit admission into the graduate program. Instead of admitting 15 foreign students, why not admit an additional 10 to 12 Americans, and only 3-5 non-Americans? This would be an excellent way of producing more American scientists, while using the American tax dollars that go to the department for their intended purpose.

Anyway, there's my take on this, based on my experiences in grad school. Hopefully no one will yell at me.

 

[MissSilvy]

and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both

I hope to god you're not a science major, because that was the most unjustified and smarmy-sounding hypothesis-posed-as-fact that I have EVER seen. Good to know you've cited studies or at least provided some support for your outrageous claim. Oh wait, you declared it to be true despite any dissenting opinion? Bugger.

 

[sportsstar469]

While I agree that sportsstar469 is a bit overly negative I don't agree with this. It is very easy to overestimate what "normal" intelligence is since most of your friends and such comes from the upper tiers since similar attracts.

Think like this, only ~15% of graduating HS students even take the first calculus class so those are certainly not a good representation of normal, you will have to go back to middle school and look at those. And yes, there most do struggle with simple things like fundamental algebra. There are just like 5 rules they need to learn, it can't be that hard right?

The problem is that if you have a bit of talent for maths then you will not see the problem those face. You will just see it like this since you don't notice the difference between doing maths and following a recipe from a cookbook:Edit:

If you read the story you would see that this isn't the case, this is coming after a lot of trying.

Edit edit: And yes, while maths is hard for everyone it starts to get hard at different stages and that is certainly not something that only comes from psychological effects. Also even for the talented it is usually harder than other subjects anyway, the easy way out is always tempting. With this I want to say that there certainly are people who don't do any maths who are really smart, and most who study some kind of maths later do underestimate their place on the intellectual gauss curve. You really do feel like an idiot when you study something you have no clue about. And since you never study something you understand in maths you will feel like an idiot constantly.

EXACTLY! math gets hard for people at different stages. like i said my friend was able to do calc 1 and with ease, then struggled in calc 2 and got a c. now he sin calc 3 and says he's confused but calc 2 and 3 are hard but not super hard just that he's struggling. to compare a guy like me who isn't strong in algebra to someone like that, and to say that i could do that is just stupid. everyone here neds to get off their high horse.
i know having a negative attitude is bad but klockan is right missy you need to read my story. i actually feel bad for some people in my school. i think i have the ability if i put more work into this course to MAYBE get an a in it, and then get a b in precalc MAYBE. however there's a math major in my class who got a 40 on his first quiz and a 40 on his second quiz, and i see him study way more than i do. my quiz averages so far are a 100 on the first quiz, and a 73 on this quiz we just had. i think if i prepared more i might have gotten a 90 but i might not have. what matters is that i ace my test on Monday and get at least an 80 on Wednesdays quiz. although I am not really trying my hardest./ it just gets frustrating when i do try and the tutors don't make sense to me.

calc 3 sounds hard but it really was the easiest of the calcs, calc 1 was hardest followed by calc 2 for btw I started college in remedial algebra; physics undergrad majors take calc1-3 followed by differential equations, partial differentials and linear algebra and perhaps 1 or 2 more maths not much more than engineering undergrads (physicists know math better though, god forbid an ee in my school is without his TI-89 ugh)

if I had stuck to what I had inate ability with I would've been an art major (and yes inate ability does exist, normally the people who say it doesn't actually have it but are somehow offended at the fact that they're being told that its their talent and not their hard that is the reason for their success, its a little bit of both); I eventually found math/physics quite beautiful even though I was struggling with it so I stuck with it

so yes genetics has a say in everything that you do but anyone ANYONE can make progress and yes understand math you just have to put in the hours, my friends who are math majors work their assess off for hours in the library everyday for their classes, they sometimes don't go home and sleep over in the math department so they can get up just study more right away for their exams, it takes that kind of dedication in some instances the subject can be that hard but its not impossible

well the person i talked to said calc 3 is harder for him because its totally different than calc 1 and 2, and because its multivariable and he doesn't know how to solve for areas and stuff..idk. but yeah that's pretty cool you started college in remedial algebra and got up as high as you did! are you sure you're not naturally good at math but just didn't have proper high school teachers? I am sure there's some aptitude there to get up to the maths./

 

[avant-garde]

And when all you do is moan about how no matter what you do, you'll never succeed, what sort of response were you expecting, exactly?

Wait... didn't you make a thread about this in some other subforum?
I think it was "'Major in what you passionate in!' and other useless platitudes..."

 

[MissSilvy]

Wait... didn't you make a thread about this in some other subforum?
I think it was "'Major in what you passionate in!' and other useless platitudes..."

My thread was referencing the trite and useless statements that people often utter to those deciding on majors. I didn't say "Waaah, math is hard so it's not my fault I suck at it!". Difference, see? :)

 

[clope023]

EXACTLY! math gets hard for people at different stages. like i said my friend was able to do calc 1 and with ease, then struggled in calc 2 and got a c. now he sin calc 3 and says he's confused but calc 2 and 3 are hard but not super hard just that he's struggling. to compare a guy like me who isn't strong in algebra to someone like that, and to say that i could do that is just stupid. everyone here neds to get off their high horse.
i know having a negative attitude is bad but klockan is right missy you need to read my story. i actually feel bad for some people in my school. i think i have the ability if i put more work into this course to MAYBE get an a in it, and then get a b in precalc MAYBE. however there's a math major in my class who got a 40 on his first quiz and a 40 on his second quiz, and i see him study way more than i do. my quiz averages so far are a 100 on the first quiz, and a 73 on this quiz we just had. i think if i prepared more i might have gotten a 90 but i might not have. what matters is that i ace my test on Monday and get at least an 80 on Wednesdays quiz. although I am not really trying my hardest./ it just gets frustrating when i do try and the tutors don't make sense to me.

well the person i talked to said calc 3 is harder for him because its totally different than calc 1 and 2, and because its multivariable and he doesn't know how to solve for areas and stuff..idk. but yeah that's pretty cool you started college in remedial algebra and got up as high as you did! are you sure you're not naturally good at math but just didn't have proper high school teachers? I am sure there's some aptitude there to get up to the maths./

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college; calc 3 isn't even that high of a math, yeah for non-science/engineering majors that sounds hard but really in engineering and physics that stuff is just standard material everyone has to know so I guess for me it doesn't seem that hard anymore, you have to actually like if you're going to grind through it though, plenty of engineers in my school end up business or management types cause they get fed up with having to do all the hard calculations, I actually like it when my teachers bust out some pure math now, lol; maybe your tutors just suck, not everyone who understands math has the ability to put it into plain english

 

[sportsstar469]

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college; calc 3 isn't even that high of a math, yeah for non-science/engineering majors that sounds hard but really in engineering and physics that stuff is just standard material everyone has to know so I guess for me it doesn't seem that hard anymore, you have to actually like if you're going to grind through it though, plenty of engineers in my school end up business or management types cause they get fed up with having to do all the hard calculations, I actually like it when my teachers bust out some pure math now, lol; maybe your tutors just suck, not everyone who understands math has the ability to put it into plain english

well yeah i know that calc 3 isn't too high for physics, but physics and math majors are geniuses...
i still consider even calculus to be a pretty high level of math.

but anyway back to the question of if you are really good at math or not. i notice you said yooure not good at math, however you said the reason was you were lazy in high school and early colleger. i think you might be good at math but are just confusing being lazy and being bad at math. 2was remedieal algebra and beyond, really easy ONCE you applied yourself?

i mean I am not doing the worst in the class, thers a amth major in my class who got a 40 on the first and the second quiz. actually, i usually am in the top percentile of my classes. although i don't care anymore. i am just lazy too. like i have a math quiz tomorrow and a math test on monday and i haven't even studied once.

i mean i don't understand if I am bad at math or not. i got a 100 on my first quiz without studying too hard, and a 73 on my second quiz with like 10 minutes of studying(so could ahve maybe been a 90 if i worked hard), and i was palced i nall the high math classes from 6yh-7th ggrade...although i failed them lol.

so those are pros. however the cons are that when a tutor or teacher explains something THAT I DONT KNOW i don't comprehend it.

and nah, the math tutors at m yschool are pretty good, its just me. i go to the same gu yall the time, because i found him the ''easiest'' to understand. i also go to my teacher, but they both don't make much sense to me. my adjunct in the summer class was great though!

btw i don't know who on this forum said that calc 3 was the easiest calc, but i told my friend in bio what you said, and he's like yeah right HAHA. he thinks he failed or got a D on his test today.

 

[Klockan3]

hell no I'm not naturally good at math, again I do believe there are people out there that are but I'm not one of them; my high school teachers were fine I was just lazy with regards to math and school in general up to high school and early college;

If you were lazy and still managed to get through high school and early college maths then you are better off than ~80-90% of the population depending on which courses you are talking about and how you define lazy.

btw i don't know who on this forum said that calc 3 was the easiest calc, but i told my friend in bio what you said, and he's like yeah right HAHA. he thinks he failed or got a D on his test today.

It is the easiest calc if you have good intuition of 3d spaces.

 

[DukeofDuke]

well yeah i know that calc 3 isn't too high for physics, but physics and math majors are geniuses...
i still consider even calculus to be a pretty high level of math.

Nah man, Calculus is mainly just new forms of computation. That's hardly math. If your textbook doesn't have more than a total of 10 proofs, its certainly not mathematics (and calculus books mainly have definitions that you merely execute).

Don't get me wrong, computation courses can be hard. But I think one major reason why so many people shy away from "math" is because they've been taught computation their whole lives, so they don't know how interesting mathematics can actually be.

And a smart kid once told me that people usually throw around the term "genius" so they don't have to admit the other person is just normal- that the other person is actually in our league, and they had to work for their knowledge. We say they are a "genius" so we never have to compete with them, so we can acknowledge and dismiss their success without engaging our sense of competition, so we can avoid having to compare to them. But its not because they are actually geniuses. I am a physics math double major at a pretty rigorous school, and I am not sure if I know a single genius.

 

[Klockan3]

People in my classes calls me a genius. But you are probably right, it is most likely because they don't want to compete. But on the other hand, when I can take twice the course load without studying at all outside of classes and still get better grades than most of them it wouldn't be fair for them having to compete with me.

It isn't about genius or not, it is about small differences stacking up. If it takes them twice as long to understand things than it takes for you, it means that the scheduled classes are just half as effective for them at best, worthless at worst since it might go so fast that they don't have time to comprehend anything. Since lectures are extremely valuable in learning subjects like this it will lose them a ton of time outside of class, after a while it will get impossible to keep up.

Just because you still have to work a lot do not mean that you aren't smart. That one is important to not forget. I constantly have moments when I feel like an idiot, when some things just seems intangible and the second time everything seems obvious so it feels like I was stupid for not realizing it sooner. It is hard to not feel stupid when studying maths/physics.

Maths is not promiscuous.

Edit: Also about computational vs theoretical maths, have you ever seen what happens if you try to incorporate real maths into a standard computational class? Chaos, people understands less when they walk away from the lecture than when they went there since it is not made to be understood easily by intuition like casaul maths. So all that happens is that everyone stops going to the lectures and your course fails. It isn't that pure maths is hidden from them, it is that to most pure maths is their biggest nightmare so it is more to protect their minds than anything else.

Of course when you have gotten a firm grasp of the basics of computational then the real thing can be quite a sight, but until then it is just a chaotic mess of horrible intangible theorems which are seemingly worthless for everything.

 

[DukeofDuke]

People in my classes calls me a genius. But you are probably right, it is most likely because they don't want to compete. But on the other hand, when I can take twice the course load without studying at all outside of classes and still get better grades than most of them it wouldn't be fair for them having to compete with me.

It isn't about genius or not, it is about small differences stacking up. If it takes them twice as long to understand things than it takes for you, it means that the scheduled classes are just half as effective for them at best, worthless at worst since it might go so fast that they don't have time to comprehend anything. Since lectures are extremely valuable in learning subjects like this it will lose them a ton of time outside of class, after a while it will get impossible to keep up.

Just because you still have to work a lot do not mean that you aren't smart. That one is important to not forget. I constantly have moments when I feel like an idiot, when some things just seems intangible and the second time everything seems obvious so it feels like I was stupid for not realizing it sooner. It is hard to not feel stupid when studying maths/physics.

Maths is not promiscuous.

Agreed, outside of the physics building people are shocked at my schedule, and it commands respect even within. But that's a property of intelligence and hard work, not of genius. While you can't put a sociology major next to me and expect him to compete, its also not fair to call me a genius because of my higher ability relative to the other guy. A genius would break the scale. You can't really even compare, because genius thinks differently (as opposed to being relatively good at thinking normally like I am).

 

[Klockan3]

Understand that when sportsstar used the word "genius" he probably meant something like the best few percents, not a world changing genius like the ones you learn about when studying.

 

[DukeofDuke]

Understand that when sportsstar used the word "genius" he probably meant something like the best few percents, not a world changing genius like the ones you learn about when studying.

Yeah, at root we're having an argument over semantics. Nonetheless, in an age when every other child is "gifted" and everyone a standard deviation ahead of the population mean is called a "genius", we need to be precise about our terms. Otherwise we risk creating a generation of over-satisfied "geniuses" who are really not that far off from mediocre (I know more than one kid with genius syndrome, and a lot of them take some severe hits to their egos when they come here the first time).

 

[sportsstar469]

i did not mean geniuses like world changing. i meant that you guys are to smart to see how it feels for an average student. believe it or not people struggle before calc...some people never pass precalc..hell i haven't taken precalc ever/.//

anyway, you know what's funny. i worked really hard for my A in that summer course i took, however this semester I am not working hard at all in my chem class, bio class, or this class. i go to the teachers for some extra help, and ask the tutors some questions etc, but i do NO homework, and take 10 minutes to study for the tests and quizzes. i did the review sheet halfway, and then didnt try to figure out why some problems were wrong...but i think on todays quiz for math i got an A, it seems like when i don't ''give a ****'' about keeping my 4.0 gpa, i actually do close to as well because I am not as stressed out about getting an A. like i literally don't care anymore and i think that's kind of a help to me if that makes sense to you guys. ijust thought that was interesting hahas. i mean half of my chem class got a 70 or below on the test (which was pretty damn tricky, all free response and critical thinking problerms) but only 5 people got over a 90 and i got a 95, and i studied maybe 10 minutes at 3 am because i was procrastinating it...HAHA. however i actually am studying for biology, and i have like a high b or a low a which is bad for me since biology is supposed to be my strong point.