Outrageous Injustice: Saudi Woman Sentenced to Jail, Lashes

[Mallignamius]

Really? How can that be true and it be subjective at the same time?

"I judge this to be true."

Isn't that how a court system is designed?

 

[Mallignamius]

Reread your post. You said we will do the "judging" and other cultures will do the "being judged".

Yeah, so? What I don't understand is what you're getting at by this.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, I noticed you conveniently bypassed my post.

It wasn't convenient, I just didn't have anything to say becasue I'm not sure what your point is.

If I were to guess, I'd interpolate that what you object to is not that she was punished but how she was punished.

 

[DaveC426913]

"I judge this to be true."

Isn't that how a court system is designed?

No.

Closer: we, as a people believe that, in our best interest, it is true.

 

[Evo]

It wasn't convenient, I just didn't have anything to say becasue I'm not sure what your point is.

If I were to guess, I'd interpolate that what you object to is not that she was punished but how she was punished.

No, it's obvious from my post that I object to both.

Please stop trying to derail this thread with meaningless references to atrocities of hundreds of years ago. We're talking about now.

We're talking about atrocities happening NOW under the guise of religion. If you want to tell us why it's ok that women have no rights in some countries, let's hear why you would defend that women are less than human.

 

[Mallignamius]

No.

Closer: we, as a people believe that, in our best interest, it is true.

And that's not subjective?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yeah, so? What I don't understand is what you're getting at by this.

: blinks audibly :
: pauses :
: blinks audibly again :

Are you telling me that you don't see anything wrong with one culture setting themselves up as the judge of other cultures?

 

[DaveC426913]

And that's not subjective?

It means that those who are affected by the laws (as a people) are those who make the laws (as a people).

This is how a society keeps checks and balances on itself.

 

[Mallignamius]

: blinks audibly :
: pauses :
: blinks audibly again :

Are you telling me that you don't see anything wrong with one culture setting themselves up as the judge of other cultures?

No, I don't. Now, I'm not suggesting an active intervention. But what's wrong with looking at another culture and saying, "that's just wrong"? Do we not need to examine how other peoples conduct themselves and compare results? It seems to me that judging another legal system is a reasonable means of assessing where we are and how we could improve. Otherwise, it feels like being a bit more in the dark.

 

[Mallignamius]

It means that those who are affected by the laws (as a people) are those who make the laws (as a people).

This is how a society keeps checks and balances on itself.

But they're still judging things, interpreting results, gauging successes. I mean, he's called a "judge." And he's determining in his best judgment whether something is true.

I don't see a difference.

 

[DaveC426913]

No, it's obvious from my post that I object to both.

The trouble is, it's not so obvious. I'm trying to tease out of broad statements exactly what the objections are.

There has been virtually no discussion in this entire thread (and I don't mean just me) about the meoth of punishment, evidence that it was not an issue on most poster's minds.

Please stop trying to derail this thread with meaningless references to atrocities of hundreds of years ago. We're talking about now.

Whoa Whoa. Me? I'm not. I didn't raise the witch hunt thing. I refuted it.

If you want to tell us why it's ok that women have no rights in some countries, let's hear why you would defend that women are less than human.

Show, using the evidence in the article being discussed, that women "have no rights" and are "less than human". If you step outside the article for your points, I will cry "straw man".


And again, I don't disagree that a terrible thing is happening here, I just don't believe that kneejerk reactions and broad judgement do anything but weaken the issue.

 

[DaveC426913]

No, I don't. Now, I'm not suggesting an active intervention. But what's wrong with looking at another culture and saying, "that's just wrong"? Do we not need to examine how other peoples conduct themselves and compare results? It seems to me that judging another legal system is a reasonable means of assessing where we are and how we could improve. Otherwise, it feels like being a bit more in the dark.

Sure. Does it work both ways? Is it OK for other cultures to look West and say "that's just wrong!"

Cuz, that's what they've been screaming for decades...

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, I've got to go home. Doing this at work gets me fired too much. It'll take me a half hour or an hour.

DON'T ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING INTERESTING!

 

[Mallignamius]

Sure. Does it work both ways? Is it OK for other cultures to look West and say "that's just wrong!"

Cuz, that's what they've been screaming for decades...

I certainly hope they do. And they do. But how would improvement eventually come forth if we (and they) just ignored what they see as atrocities? To not even look at each other and not examine how the other does things can't lead to much progress.

OK, I've got to go home. Doing this at work gets me fired too much. It'll take me a half hour or an hour.

DON'T ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING INTERESTING!

sorry, just saw this after posting my reply. I'll shut up now.

 

[Evo]

The trouble is, it's not so obvious. I'm trying to tease out of broad statements exactly what the objections are.

From this you can't find anything obvious?

People arent sentenced to flogging in the US.

Women aren't treated like cattle (or worse) in the US.

Objection 1) FLOGGING

Objection 2) Women aren't treated as equal human beings, they have virtually no rights.

Show, using the evidence in the article being discussed, that women "have no rights" and are "less than human". If you step outside the article for your points, I will cry "straw man".

That a woman is not allowed to be alone with a man that is not a relative, no matter how innocent. It's not just frowned upon, it's a crime punishable by flogging and prison! A man with a woman that is not a relative, will not be punished. And that's just in this article. Want to start a discussion on the lack of women's right in Islamic countries?

 

[Mk]

This is wrong, just because it's part of their religion, doesn't make it right.

I believe the morality in question can be seen by them as literally equal to religion, and is therefore morally right.

You know what I say? I say Israeli commandos, at 3 am, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HALO" parachute jump into the prison, rescue her and radio for stealth helicopter, and bring her to Israel. See if her opinion on things changes just a bit.

 

[DaveC426913]

I certainly hope they do. And they do. But how would improvement eventually come forth if we (and they) just ignored what they see as atrocities?

What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."

 

[out of whack]

Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian regime. Without democracy, events like this one will continue to be sanctioned by the state. The deepest outrage is to deny an entire population (especially females) the right to enact their own laws.

 

[DaveC426913]

Objection 1) FLOGGING

Agreed.That is barbaric.

Objection 2) Women aren't treated as equal human beings, they have virtually no rights.

Agreed. That is barbaric.

That a woman is not allowed to be alone with a man that is not a relative, no matter how innocent. It's not just frowned upon, it's a crime punishable by flogging and prison! A man with a woman that is not a relative, will not be punished.

Agreed. That is hypocritical, if true. I did not see in the article where it said that there was NOT a comparable law for men.

And that's just in this article. Want to start a discussion on the lack of women's right in Islamic countries?

Nope. Just wanted the cards on the table. That is a much more discussable list than we had at the start.

 

[Moonbear]

All I am saying is that: the article is NOT ABOUT the men - I will presume that their case is being dealt with.

Their sentence was doubled too.

The article is about this woman who committed a crime. Does everyone believe that Saudi Arabia has no right to impose a law upon its people that forbids the mixing of women with men that they do not know?

The punishment is extreme for such a crime, and that only the woman is punished in such a situation, not the man, makes it even more of an unreasonable law. If it is illegal for men and women to mix, then BOTH are guilty of that crime (she was not raped by the man she was with, she was raped by other men). To punish a crime that creates no physical harm with something that does cause physical harm should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.

 

[Mallignamius]

What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."

Their example isn't exactly the best one to learn from. But this is merely an example you've given. You're not really arguing against my point:

It's beneficial to judge another culture.

 

[Mk]

should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.

Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.

 

[Evo]

Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.

Are you saying that basic human rights should not be universal?

 

[Mk]

"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.

 

[Evo]

"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.

Yes, and that is why we should be pro-active in expecting human rights everywhere. Change sometimes has to be forced. It is not right that these women should be abused, and it is not right that we should stand by, aware of these atrocities, and say nothing.

 

[siddharth]

What's with all the moral relativism in this thread? Remember, just because you think that we shouldn't claim the modern system of law is "better" than sharia laws, it doesn't mean that it's true for everyone.

Whatever system of law is imposed by any government, I think that such a decision is unbelievably barbaric, irrespective of cultural norms. It shows that some societies are still living in the stone age.

 

[JasonRox]

And this thread isn't locked because...?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, and that is why we should be pro-active in expecting human rights everywhere. Change sometimes has to be forced. It is not right that these women should be abused, and it is not right that we should stand by, aware of these atrocities, and say nothing.

Agreed. Though it's a dicey issue. It has to be balanced with the right for others to govern their own culture. Those who don't respect that are no better than thugs.

 

[DaveC426913]

And this thread isn't locked because...?

Why would it be locked? It is certainly fertile ground for spirited discussion, but I don't see it getting outside of forum policy.

 

[Plastic Photon]

We should go to war with them.

 

[Mk]

We should go to war with them.

Why?

 

[Evo]

Agreed. Though it's a dicey issue. It has to be balanced with the right for others to govern their own culture. Those who don't respect that are no better than thugs.

You've never heard of human rights?

 

[Moonbear]

"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.

It happens, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD happen, or should continue to be PERMITTED to happen. That's why there are international human rights laws, because there are still human rights violations that need to be curtailed. Beating someone for the company she keeps certainly qualifies as a human rights violation.

 

[Integral]

Are you saying that basic human rights should not be universal?

What should be, and what is, are two different things.

Perhaps the best we can hope for is that the "world is watching" climate created by the Internet can begin to change some of these restrictive cultures. Meanwhile I do not see any point in pushing anger and hate in response to events in a foreign culture that we have no control over..

 

[Art]

It happens, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD happen, or should continue to be PERMITTED to happen. That's why there are international human rights laws, because there are still human rights violations that need to be curtailed. Beating someone for the company she keeps certainly qualifies as a human rights violation.

Agreed and the UN is the place to enact universal common standards. Countries who refuse to sign up to the UN charter for human rights should be shunned by the other UN members until such time as they come into compliance.

Unfortunately the 57 Muslim nations who are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference refuse to sign up as they believe it is a christian judeo document that does not take into account Islamic Shari’ah laws.

This leaves the West and other more enlightened countries with a decision to make, whether to subject the non-signatories to sanctions or whether to ignore the gulf in standards re the status of women. The reality is the muslim states tend to have most of the world's oil and so their behaviour is glossed over by western gov'ts.

It is worth noting however that there are many women in these Islamic countries who are fiercely supportive of Shari’ah law who also resent the West's attempts to 'free them from oppression' and so what we view as unacceptable and barbaric behaviour does not seem to be seen in the same light by the 'victims'. It's hard to help people who don't believe they need helping.