Pain in the peripheral nervous system

[zoobyshoe]

See Ramachanfran and phantom limb pain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

I've read about Ramachandran's work in phantom limbs a couple times before. It is a phenomenon of the brain, just as you say, but not a psychological one. I think we're both in agreement about what is happening, it's the term psychological I object to. It could be that in French this word has a different connotation.

"psy·chol·o·gy

1: the science of mind and behavior2 a: the mental or behavioral characteristics of an individual or group b: the study of mind and behavior in relation to a particular field of knowledge or activity3: a theory or system of psychology <Freudian psychology> <the psychology of Jung>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psychology

Psychology is about the programming and programs, so to speak, and not the hardware. It's about what is called "mind"; about the way people think and behave. If a person were hypnotized to experience physical pain at the sight of a book, then that is a psychological event: it's purely the result of programming.

That is a consideration distinct from the physical mechanisms whereby the brain creates sensory experiences from stimuli. Phantom limb pain is the result of the mechanism, the hardware being forced to operate in the absence of normal stimuli. When the neurons have no direct input from the limbs they start accepting and processing input from the surrounding neurons and processing it as if it were from the limbs. That's a neurological event. A psychological explanation, on the other hand, would be, for example, to assert that the person is grief stricken over having lost a limb and reacts by becoming psychotic enough to convince themselves that the limb is still there.

That's the reason I object to his use of the word "psychological". If we define neurological events as psychological then people with Multiple Sclerosis and even Traumatic Brain Injuries, should be sent to psychologists and psychiatrists, and we can do away with neurologists.

 

[turbo]

I've read about Ramachandran's work in phantom limbs a couple times before. It is a phenomenon of the brain, just as you say, but not a psychological one. I think we're both in agreement about what is happening, it's the term psychological I object to.

True. My constant pain (burning right foot) is not some psychological problem. It is entirely physiological, as pointed out to me by my neurologist (a lovely German woman). She showed me the small region in my brain-stem that was damaged by the stroke, using MRI images. That region handles bi-lateral neural paths, so while I lost temperature sensation in the right leg from the hip down (and got this relentless roasting sensation in my right foot) I also lost a lot of joint-position feedback from the left leg. I learned to walk again in a few days, but uneven ground still gives me fits, especially if I am not perfectly upright. Nothing psychological about any of it, or I'd have had my brain shrunk long ago.

 

[zoobyshoe]

True. My constant pain (burning right foot) is not some psychological problem. It is entirely physiological, as pointed out to me by my neurologist (a lovely German woman). She showed me the small region in my brain-stem that was damaged by the stroke, using MRI images. That region handles bi-lateral neural paths, so while I lost temperature sensation in the right leg from the hip down (and got this relentless roasting sensation in my right foot) I also lost a lot of joint-position feedback from the left leg. I learned to walk again in a few days, but uneven ground still gives me fits, especially if I am not perfectly upright. Nothing psychological about any of it, or I'd have had my brain shrunk long ago.

Exactly. "Psychological" connotes "psychosomatic", which very erroneously characterizes the sufferer's problem as one of mental illness.

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I hope you don't mind my saying so, but your symptoms are very interesting. It just underscores how complex the architecture is.

 

[turbo]

Exactly. "Psychological" connotes "psychosomatic", which very erroneously characterizes the sufferer's problem as one of mental illness.

----------

I hope you don't mind my saying so, but your symptoms are very interesting. It just underscores how complex the architecture is.

I don't mind. I would like people to consider that our soldiers coming back from wars with wounds can be afflicted with many of these same symptoms. Phantom pain in amputated limbs (perhaps debilitating pain) loss of many types of sensation, etc, can result from the traumatic injuries these people suffered in their service. I had a tiny clot migrate to my brain-stem and kill some cells. Some of these people have suffered severe physical injuries, and the hardest ones to diagnose after the fact may be hidden brain injuries.

 

[turbo]

To follow up, our returning soldiers can be outwardly "whole" while suffering from pain that is very real, and that cannot be treated with pain-killers because it originates in their brains. They can never escape it, and well-meaning but inadequately-trained VA doctors can set them on treatment paths that result in addiction, frustration, self-destructive behaviors, and worse.

 

[somasimple]

I've read about Ramachandran's work in phantom limbs a couple times before. It is a phenomenon of the brain, just as you say, but not a psychological one. I think we're both in agreement about what is happening, it's the term psychological I object to. It could be that in French this word has a different connotation.

"psy·chol·o·gy

1: the science of mind and behavior2 a: the mental or behavioral characteristics of an individual or group b: the study of mind and behavior in relation to a particular field of knowledge or activity3: a theory or system of psychology <Freudian psychology> <the psychology of Jung>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psychology

Psychology is about the programming and programs, so to speak, and not the hardware. It's about what is called "mind"; about the way people think and behave. If a person were hypnotized to experience physical pain at the sight of a book, then that is a psychological event: it's purely the result of programming.

Where lives the mind? Where is created behaviors?
You may contest that it is situated elsewhere than the brain. It is not my concern but as the scientific mind you may bring some proof that it is not the result of neurons network activation. A neurons network is purely physical and their activation create programs: something that is purely material and hardwired by physical synapses.

The connotation of psychosomatic and psychological that you brought is not scientific at all. Freund and all are not sciences and actually criticized by neuro-scientists. See Damasio...

She showed me the small region in my brain-stem that was damaged by the stroke, using MRI images.

Did I said brain?

I agree there is a problem of term but all illness have a psychological component because brain reacts every time the body is threatened. I fell sick or It hurts are already the result of brain activation.

Read this excellent book:https://www.amazon.com/dp/097509100X/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[somasimple]

Exactly. "Psychological" connotes "psychosomatic", which very erroneously characterizes the sufferer's problem as one of mental illness.

A mental illness? Do you mean a brain disorder? or a physical problem that occurs between some neurons located in brain?

 

[somasimple]

A favorite of mine from this book:
ALL PAIN IS REAL!

 

[Math Is Hard]

Where lives the mind? Where is created behaviors?
You may contest that it is situated elsewhere than the brain. It is not my concern but as the scientific mind you may bring some proof that it is not the result of neurons network activation. A neurons network is purely physical and their activation create programs: something that is purely material and hardwired by physical synapses.

The connotation of psychosomatic and psychological that you brought is not scientific at all. Freund and all are not sciences and actually criticized by neuro-scientists. See Damasio...


Did I said brain?

I agree there is a problem of term but all illness have a psychological component because brain reacts every time the body is threatened. I fell sick or It hurts are already the result of brain activation.

Read this excellent book:https://www.amazon.com/dp/097509100X/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Do you consider yourself a Behaviorist, somasimple?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviourism

I'm not clear on your stance.

 

[Mashes]

I'm interested in the actual signal that travels, like it's waveform, amplitude, phase etc? So that brains know that this is serious pain, output a mighty roar from mouth.



I was looking for a bit (100%) cheaper article.

I took anatomy and physiology I last semester and aced it. I think what you may be asking is the signal from sensory to brain and back to the motor unit that determines what's going on. You have sensory receptors in the skin, pacinian corpuscle, which adapts to the environment if it's light pressure or minor change in temperature. That's why when you have cloths on you tend to forget it's there. When you put your hand on the stove, an action potential arises from the sensory nerve that then travels to the spine, were an ascending tract, that has a name but I totally forgot it, shoots it up to the brain. Then the nerve comes in contact with its terminal were a chemical reaction takes place that transfers the action potential from the sensory nerve to an integrative nerve in the brain (Could explain this in more detail, just ask, i'll crack open the textbooks). The integrative nerve is the choice maker in this scenario. The integrative
nerve decides a course of action and the same chemical reaction that occurred at the sensory/integrative synapses happens here. The chemical reaction creates an action potential for the motor neuron to move your hand from the stove and let out that mighty roar, or in my case that mighty whimper.

So here's the summery- If you think of it a highway it becomes stupid easy.
1) Hand on stove, sensory nerve creates action potential
2) Action potential continues through the PNS until it reaches the CNS ( spine and brain )
3) Ascending tract launches sensory impulse to brain.
4) Sensory impulse transfers from sensory to integrative
5) Integrative to motor neuron
6) Epic scream and removal of hand from stove..hopefully.

If anyone notices something I missed, or said incorrectly, do correct me. I did this from memory and I'm on winter break so I'm rusty and this is great practice.

 

[somasimple]

Do you consider yourself a Behaviorist, somasimple?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviourism

I'm not clear on your stance.

I do not think so.
I'm just a physical therapist (PT) and my level of expertise is pain and behaviors carried by pain.
http://www.somasimple.com/forums/

 

[somasimple]

So here's the summery- If you think of it a highway it becomes stupid easy.
1) Hand on stove, sensory nerve creates action potential
2) Action potential continues through the PNS until it reaches the CNS ( spine and brain )
3) Ascending tract launches sensory impulse to brain.
4) Sensory impulse transfers from sensory to integrative
5) Integrative to motor neuron
6) Epic scream and removal of hand from stove..hopefully.

If anyone notices something I missed, or said incorrectly, do correct me. I did this from memory and I'm on winter break so I'm rusty and this is great practice.

I can't describe this sequence for an amputee who has this right missing foot that is itching like hell. You're missing something.

 

[Mashes]

Oh and to the posters of the post prior to mine, I read this book called My Stroke Of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor, Neuroanatomist. She had a stroke and while having the stroke she studied her behavior and physical state. Really gripping book with a lot to offer. Anyways, the end of the book is filled with brain and CNS facts about behavior and psychology. There was one page I wish I could quote but I lent my communications professor my copy of the book and the dude never returned it. It was about how physiological reactions to anger only last 90 seconds and after that it's our choice on how we want to feel. Heres a video about her book and her experiences.

 

[Mashes]

I can't describe this sequence for an amputee who has this right missing foot that is itching like hell. You're missing something.

The post was intended for misgool and was basic API. I hit all the points he wanted to know. As for what you're looking for, I have no idea why this would happen. Part of psychological grieving? People remember certain sensations, perhaps stronger then others? Couldn't tell you really

 

[Math Is Hard]

I can't describe this sequence for an amputee who has this right missing foot that is itching like hell. You're missing something.

Do you have any effective therapies for that? A long time ago I read about a remedy of letting the person scratch the opposite (intact) foot in front of a mirror and that seemed to help. I can't remember how they rigged it to create a precise illusion that the itching foot was being scratched.

 

[somasimple]

The post was intended for misgool and was basic API. I hit all the points he wanted to know. As for what you're looking for, I have no idea why this would happen. Part of psychological grieving? People remember certain sensations, perhaps stronger then others? Couldn't tell you really

Part of psychological grieving? no.
People remember certain sensations, perhaps stronger then others? probably.

Mirror therapy gives good results:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/21/2206
http://www.mirrorboxtherapy.com/

 

[Mashes]

Part of psychological grieving? no.
People remember certain sensations, perhaps stronger then others? probably.

Mirror therapy gives good results:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/21/2206

You don't think it has anything to do with psychology? Drug addictions start as a psychological phenomena which in turn becomes a physiological phenomena. Withdrawal for instances can kill a patient, and it was something the patient developed habitually.

Also part of the grieving process is denial, could having pains in a part of your body that aren't even there anymore be considered a physiological form of denial?

 

[somasimple]

You don't think it has anything to do with psychology? Drug addictions start as a psychological phenomena which in turn becomes a physiological phenomena. Withdrawal for instances can kill a patient, and it was something the patient developed habitually.

Also part of the grieving process is denial, could having pains in a part of your body that aren't even there anymore be considered a physiological form of denial?

You do not read what I'm writing: I'm not interested by psychology. Mirror box therapy acts on brain and brain is an assembly of neurons. Brain is a physical organ.
Brain is complex and it is sure that Medicine says it is psychosomatic when the treatment fails. But Medicine says this because it doesn't understand the patient's complaint and has nothing to offer.

 

[somasimple]

Drug addictions start as a psychological phenomena

No. Addiction is purely physical: neurons want something (a chemical product) in urge. This urge creates behaviors that looks abnormal for others.

 

[Mashes]

You do not read what I'm writing: I'm not interested by psychology. Mirror box therapy acts on brain and brain is an assembly of neurons. Brain is a physical organ.
Brain is complex and it is sure that Medicine says it is psychosomatic when the treatment fails. But Medicine says this because it doesn't understand the patient's complaint and has nothing to offer.

Well if you know what you're talking about, then WHAT exactly are you interested in? You seem to have you stuff all together and you seem to understand, besides, my original post was intended for Misgool

Any who, I hope what I said made sense to you Misgool. You should take AP I and II. They really put things in perspective and unravel the mysteries of human anatomy.

 

[Mashes]

No. Addiction is purely physical: neurons want something (a chemical product) in urge. This urge creates behaviors that looks abnormal for others.

Do neurons want the chemical product? or does the motor unit? Also, some people overcome addictions with will power, which is psycological.

 

[somasimple]

Well if you know what you're talking about, then WHAT exactly are you interested in? You seem to have you stuff all together and you seem to understand, besides, my original post was intended for Misgool

Any who, I hope what I said made sense to you Misgool. You should take AP I and II. They really put things in perspective and unravel the mysteries of human anatomy.

My posts have the same intention: Replying to a question. The answer is more complex than expected and pain can't be cured by systems that act on peripheral nervous system. It had been tested and used since decades; It is called TENS: Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation.

 

[somasimple]

Do neurons want the chemical product? or does the motor unit? Also, some people overcome addictions with will power, which is psycological.

What is a motor unit? a neuron connected to a myofibrill!
Power, emotions, thoughts are physical because wa are able to see the neural activation with PetSCAN and fMRI and Magneto Encephalography.

 

[Mashes]

My posts have the same intention: Replying to a question. The answer is more complex than expected and pain can't be cured by systems that act on peripheral nervous system. It had been tested and used since decades; It is called TENS: Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation.

What about systems operating on the vagus nerve? Is the vagus nerve CNS or PNS?

 

[somasimple]

Vagus nerve belongs to CNS but CNS contains ANS that is Autonomic Nervous System. The ANS is the real subconscious nervous system. It may act against your will (and it does).
Vagus nerve has little to do with pain.
Vagus nerve is also designated as the X cranial nerve.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Mirror therapy gives good results:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/21/2206
http://www.mirrorboxtherapy.com/

Thanks, soma. That's what I was thinking of.

 

[Mashes]

Vagus nerve belongs to CNS but CNS contain ANS that is Autonomic Nervous System. The ANS is the real subconscious nervous system. It may act against your will (and it does).
Vagus nerve has little to do with pain.

In what cases does the Vagus nerve have to do with pain, besides parasympathetic nausea and stomach cramp reactions?

 

[somasimple]

In what cases does the Vagus nerve have to do with pain, besides parasympathetic nausea and stomach cramp reactions?

None, IMHO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

 

[zoobyshoe]

The connotation of psychosomatic and psychological that you brought is not scientific at all. Freund and all are not sciences and actually criticized by neuro-scientists. See Damasio...

This is pretty much my point. You can't separate psychology from "Freud and all". I am not the one giving that word that connotation. The definition I offered is from a well respected dictionary.

I am sure that there is a better term to replace "psychological" that comes from Neuro-Science. It might be "experiential" .

Hence: "All experiential pain is real pain." Meaning: When a person has the experience of pain it should be considered real pain.

The "psychological" interpretation of pain draws the opposite conclusion: "It's all in your mind. It's not real. It will go away if you talk to a therapist or simply stop thinking about it."

 

[zoobyshoe]

Also part of the grieving process is denial, could having pains in a part of your body that aren't even there anymore be considered a physiological form of denial?

As Ramachandran and his colleages demonstrated it is the result of the neurons which would usually receive stimuli from the limbs receiving it from the surrounding neurons instead. For example, the thumb and parts of the face are located right next to each other on the sensory homunculus. Touching the cheek of a person with no hand will give them the sensation the missing thumb is being touched. Authentic stimuli is bleeding over to the adjacent location, as it were. That adjacent location, it is reasoned, is vulnerable to this because it is starved of the stimuli it would normally be receiving.

There must certainly be a purely psychological component: it must take a long time to overcome the expectation of having a limb where it has always been. However, as in the case of Turbo, these phantom sensations can occur exclusively from insult to the brain with all limbs intact and undamaged.

 

[somasimple]

This is pretty much my point. You can't separate psychology from "Freud and all". I am not the one giving that word that connotation. The definition I offered is from a well respected dictionary.

I am sure that there is a better term to replace "psychological" that comes from Neuro-Science. It might be "experiential" .

Hence: "All experiential pain is real pain." Meaning: When a person has the experience of pain it should be considered real pain.

The "psychological" interpretation of pain draws the opposite conclusion: "It's all in your mind. It's not real. It will go away if you talk to a therapist or simply stop thinking about it."

In our daily practice we see patients who experience pain without anybody damage: My low back hurts since I lost my job! Is he a liar? Not at all! His body hurts.
Comments?
http://www.somasimple.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4944

As Ramachandran and his colleages demonstrated it is the result of the neurons which would usually receive stimuli from the limbs receiving it from the surrounding neurons instead. For example, the thumb and parts of the face are located right next to each other on the sensory homunculus. Touching the cheek of a person with no hand will give them the sensation the missing thumb is being touched. Authentic stimuli is bleeding over to the adjacent location, as it were. That adjacent location, it is reasoned, is vulnerable to this because it is starved of the stimuli it would normally be receiving. There must certainly be a purely psychological component: it must take a long time to overcome the expectation of having a limb where it has always been. However, as in the case of Turbo, these phantom sensations can occur exclusively from insult to the brain with all limbs intact and undamaged.

Many babies were born without limbs and unfortunately their missing limbs hurt.
There must certainly be a purely psychological component? In utero?

 

[zoobyshoe]

In our daily practice we see patients who experience pain without anybody damage: My low back hurts since I lost my job! Is he a liar? Not at all! His body hurts.
Comments?

Are you stipulating that it's psychosomatic?

Many babies were born without limbs and unfortunately their missing limbs hurt.
There must certainly be a purely psychological component? In utero?

Despite being born without limbs they were born with places on their sensory strip to process stimuli from limbs. All the same neurological causes of phantom pains in amputees exist in this case.

However, since they never had limbs they don't experience the purely psychological upset of missing something they used to have. I don't miss my Mercedes, because I never had a Mercedes.

 

[somasimple]

Are you stipulating that it's psychosomatic?

Did I? You're making distinctions between pains. I do not.
This man experiences pain. His pain is real. His pain is located in the lower back.
I may consider only his pain and I'll fail to help him.
I'm considering a man who lost his job and he is suffering from that.
I will communicate with him (brain) or with his body (brain) and perhaps it will help.

Any event may have painful consequences.

 

[turbo]

Remember the "neural induction" device used by the witch in Dune to test the duke's son? It induced a feeling of burning in his hand so real that he should have withdrawn his hand from the box in self-preservation. His refusal to do so was "proof" that he was a superior being.

I fear that sadists in the medical field will find ways to induce pain this way, and sell it to governments so they can torture people with no detectable tissue damage. Far-fetched? Don't think so.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You're making distinctions between pains.

No. Between causes.