Pain in the peripheral nervous system

[somasimple]

No. Between causes.

Does that change the result: Pain?

 

[Monique]

Somasimple, I think it should be very clear that the cause of the pain should dictate the type of treatment. It seems to be that you are saying that pain is like a dream that is imagined by the brain and that if you 'wake' someone that the pain will be gone. Pain is something physically real. You don't tell a seeing person to ignore his sight and expect him to go blind.

 

[somasimple]

Somasimple, I think it should be very clear that the cause of the pain should dictate the type of treatment. It seems to be that you are saying that pain is like a dream that is imagined by the brain and that if you 'wake' someone that the pain will be gone. Pain is something physically real. You don't tell a seeing person to ignore his sight and expect him to go blind.

A favorite of mine from this book:
ALL PAIN IS REAL!

It seems that I didn't say something like that.
And you may search something about http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/spr05/inno1.htm" .

Virtual Reality analgesia is not limited to burn patients, however. Immersive VR distraction is being used to treat a growing number of painful procedures:

Reality? Not a bit but brain doesn't care.

 

[Proton Soup]

having been woke up from my sleep recently with sinus pain, it seems awfully real to me, dreaming or not.

and FWIW, pain receptors can cause real physiological symptoms whether you feel the pain in your brain or not. let's say you're a paraplegic, and you want to cheat at wheelchair racing. one thing that might be done is to put tacks in your seat so that when you sit on them, the body responds by increasing your blood pressure and cardiac output. (disclaimer: do not do this. you will get tetanus and be a very unhappy camper.) there may not be nerve conduction through your damaged spine, but there is still a pain response. and i get odd stuff from my sinus pain, too. i can have quite a bit of inflammation, and not really feel it. yet, my heart rate is elevated, my mood is depressed, and thinking is sluggish. you can distract people all you want, but that doesn't mean their bodies aren't responding to what's being done to them.

 

[somasimple]

there may not be nerve conduction through your damaged spine, but there is still a pain response.

No message in nerves and still in pain? Where could it be produced?
You do not understand that pain is a reponse... not an incoming stimulus and there is no pain receptors: Nociception is not pain.
Cramps come spaticity and a spastic muscle creates chemical products. Pain is a complex response that may content endocrines.

A pain experience may involve a composite of sensory, motor, autonomic, endocrine, immune, cognitive, affective and behavioural components. Context and meaning are paramount in determining the eventual output response.

 

[somasimple]

let's say you're a paraplegic, and you want to cheat at wheelchair racing. one thing that might be done is to put tacks in your seat so that when you sit on them, the body responds by increasing your blood pressure and cardiac output.

And your example is rather silly and far from reality.
Many paraplegics have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedsore" and they do not feel any pain.

 

[Monique]

You do not understand that pain is a reponse... not an incoming stimulus and there is no pain receptors: Nociception is not pain.

Would you disagree that there is a highly specialized neuron that only responds to noxious stimuli, who communicates this information accurately to the CNS? And that this stimulus would result in a variety of autonomic responses and may result in the experience of pain?

 

[somasimple]

Would you disagree that there is a highly specialized neuron that only responds to noxious stimuli, who communicates this information accurately to the CNS? And that this stimulus would result in a variety of autonomic responses and may result in the experience of pain?

You do not understand that pain is a reponse... not an incoming stimulus and there is no pain receptors: Nociception is not pain.

And that this stimulus would result in a variety of autonomic responses and may result in the experience of pain?

Did you said "may"? That is not mandatory in that case.

 

[Proton Soup]

No message in nerves and still in pain? Where could it be produced?
You do not understand that pain is a reponse... not an incoming stimulus and there is no pain receptors: Nociception is not pain.
Cramps come spaticity and a spastic muscle creates chemical products. Pain is a complex response that may content endocrines.

well, yes, not an actual pain receptor but, say, a pressure or temperature sensor. and when noxious stimuli send them over some threshold, there are physiological responses beyond the simple perception of "pain" in the brain.

in any case, the effects of stimuli that cause pain go beyond the perception in the brain, and do not require metabolic byproducts of muscle stimulation.

 

[Monique]

And that this stimulus would result in a variety of autonomic responses and may result in the experience of pain?

Did you said "may"? That is not mandatory in that case.

I think it should be very clear that nociceptors send a signal and that the brain respond to that.

 

[zoobyshoe]

A favorite of mine from this book:
ALL PAIN IS REAL!

No one has disputed this.

It seems that I didn't say something like that.
And you may search something about http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/spr05/inno1.htm" .

Psychological treatment of physiological pain has been explored for years, particularly pain control by hypnosis. The results have always been mixed: different patients exhibit differing levels of responsiveness. The fact it can work to some extent does not mean the original physiological pain was psychological!

As far as I can tell we are in complete agreement about everything except the meaning of the word psychological. You seem to be asserting that everything that happens in the brain is psychological.

All psychological experiences arise from physiological processes but no physiological processes are psychological. This is true because of the meaning of the words. I posted the meaning of the word psychological quoting directly from the dictionary, and you rejected that meaning. That's idiosyncratic, to say the least.

 

[somasimple]

well, yes, not an actual pain receptor but, say, a pressure or temperature sensor. and when noxious stimuli send them over some threshold, there are physiological responses beyond the simple perception of "pain" in the brain.

in any case, the effects of stimuli that cause pain go beyond the perception in the brain, and do not require metabolic byproducts of muscle stimulation.

No. Pressure or heat is transmited by nerves => No message => No pressure or heat.

I think it should be very clear that nociceptors send a signal and that the brain respond to that.

No. It will respond if necessary.

The fact it can work to some extent does not mean the original physiological pain was psychological!

I just said the contrary. I said (one more time) that all pain is real and I added that all psychological events are real too (are physical).

 

[somasimple]

I posted the meaning of the word psychological quoting directly from the dictionary, and you rejected that meaning.

I reject its meaning because it is outdated.

 

[Monique]

I don't think there is any reason to continue this discussion, as it is going nowhere.

 

[somasimple]

I don't think there is any reason to continue this discussion, as it is going nowhere.

Really? It is going to the actual knowledge about brain and pain but you may follow your own way if you want. That is tolerance.
I prefer to believe in knowledge taught by the IASP (International Association for the Study of Pain) than an obsolete definition that needs a serious refinement.
Science evolves. It is an unpleasant thing for many...

 

[Proton Soup]

i don't think anyone sees what your point is. it's somewhat interesting that you can use a psychological means to cope with pain. but it doesn't actually fix anything, it's just a coping mechanism.

 

[somasimple]

i don't think anyone sees what your point is.

I'm in the same condition.

 

[turbo]

Really? It is going to the actual knowledge about brain and pain but you may follow your own way if you want. That is tolerance.
I prefer to believe in knowledge taught by the IASP (International Association for the Study of Pain) than an obsolete definition that needs a serious refinement.
Science evolves. It is an unpleasant thing for many...

You seem to be remarkably able to ignore some medical facts and re-interpret them as wanted. It is possible (as I can well-attest, since I live with it) to have real localized brain injuries that result in the perception of pain when no tissue damage is being experienced. In my case, my right foot feels like it is being roasted 24/7 because of a stoke that damaged a small part of my brain-stem.

The pain is a result of physiological damage, and it won't go away, nor can it be lessened by any drugs that my doctors tried. There is no psychological component to the damage (which was very evident in the MRIs) nor is there a psychological component regarding treatment options unless my doctors have been in a coma for the last 15 years or so. Our perception of pain arises not in peripheral tissues, but in the brain, and if the brain is injured, we can be forced to experienced pain, no pain, discomfort, etc, in parts of our bodies that are far removed from that injury.

 

[somasimple]

You seem to be remarkably able to ignore some medical facts and re-interpret them as wanted. It is possible (as I can well-attest, since I live with it) to have real localized brain injuries that result in the perception of pain when no tissue damage is being experienced. In my case, my right foot feels like it is being roasted 24/7 because of a stoke that damaged a small part of my brain-stem.

You seem to be remarkably able to ignore all my posts. I'm just saying the things you're telling us.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2044691&postcount=6

Many people report pain in the absence of tissue damage or any likely pathophysiological cause; usually this happens for psychological reasons. There is usually no way to distinguish their experience from that due to tissue damage if we take the subjective report. If they regard their experience as pain and if they report it in the same ways as pain caused by tissue damage, it should be accepted as pain. This definition avoids tying pain to the stimulus. Activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state, even though we may well appreciate that pain most often has a proximate physical cause.

Did I said either that Medicine is a miracle provider? No. Unfortunately there are many cases where we have no solution, actually.

 

[Monique]

I think what turbo-1 is describing is neuropathic pain (a chronic pain as a result from an injury to the nervous system), which is different from nociceptive pain.

 

[somasimple]

Perhaps: Neuropathic pain is a dysfunction of the nerve (or of another neural component) itself. Neuropathic pain have also many components; peripheral (local) and central.

In my case, my right foot feels like it is being roasted 24/7 because of a stroke that damaged a small part of my brain-stem.

In the described case, it seems a central pain. It is a complex pain and it is very difficult to find a solution. The mirror box may help to normalize the two sides.
A central problem may also creates peripheral problems...