Physicists and physics majors, was it worth it?

[Vanadium 50]

Other sciences don't seem to have this problem. You can work as a chemist directly with the knowledge you leant in core chemistry classes

Funny you should use that example. Take a look at chemistry boards. A lot of wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth about how hard it is to get a good job and how other sciences like physics have it so easy.

 

[pi-r8]

Funny you should use that example. Take a look at chemistry boards. A lot of wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth about how hard it is to get a good job and how other sciences like physics have it so easy.

Oh, I know. I'm not saying it's easy- even in CS, arguably *the* hot major these days, lots of students have trouble getting their first job. I've also heard that from recent law school grads. But those programs all have a direct school->job path available, where there's an obvious job that directly uses what they learned in class, that I don't see in physics.

 

[Dr Transport]

Oh, I know. I'm not saying it's easy- even in CS, arguably *the* hot major these days, lots of students have trouble getting their first job. I've also heard that from recent law school grads. But those programs all have a direct school->job path available, where there's an obvious job that directly uses what they learned in class, that I don't see in physics.

I agree, any new hire I have with a physics degree takes more training. My boss insists that we look at physics majors and we do, but in my niche area of computational electromagnetics a knowledge of Jackson or Griffiths isn't going to cut it. Sure, you have the basics and can learn it, but all of the people who work for me have to have a working knowledge of Ballanis and Harington and there are things in those texts which a physicist never learns in school.

Frankly, after all the years I have been in physics, whether in industry or government, a BS in physics probably won't get you in the door working for me. Can I say a physics degree isn't worth it, no, that is a question everyone needs to answer for themselves. I know I had to learn a h*** of a lot of engineering after my physics PhD to stay employed, not to mention multiple coding languages and operating systems.

 

[Crass_Oscillator]

I switched to electrical engineering for grad school and am loving it. I'm doing applied physics. You can do the same with an aerospace degree; best of both worlds, and better pay!

The only thing special about being an academic physicist is the chance to work in rarefied environments on bourgeois, vanity problems, or do applied physics while being paid less.

 

[pi-r8]

I switched to electrical engineering for grad school and am loving it. I'm doing applied physics. You can do the same with an aerospace degree; best of both worlds, and better pay!

The only thing special about being an academic physicist is the chance to work in rarefied environments on bourgeois, vanity problems, or do applied physics while being paid less.

How did you manage the transition into EE grad school? Doesn't the program assume that you've already taken all the bachelor's level EE classes?

 

[Crass_Oscillator]

I just dove into some grad level circuits classes and killed them. The bureaucrats were satisfied, although I had to work 80+ hours a week.

 

[sophiecentaur]

This thread demonstrates that there is a difference between Education and Training, which is a distinction that is often not acknowledged. Physics education will probably put a graduate in a better position to take training in almost any field. Engineering education may not, because it is already more specialised. But how relevant is that for someone who just wants to rely on having a well paid job in their late twenties? A half competent Engineering or Physics graduate who is able to present themselves well is more likely to be earning reasonable money than the equivalent Arts or Humanities graduate. And there is a lot of satisfaction when they connect up their circuits and the lamp actually turns on.

 

[Rika]

I don't see any physics equivalent of those jobs is, at least not without a phd in a specific niche. Instead you have to be "flexible" and "entrepreneurial" and "learn to code" just like they tell the liberal arts students. So to me it fits better as a liberal arts degree than as a STEM degree.

That's it. That's exactly it. I think everyone need to accept fact that there will be low enrollment in physics because it's not very marketable by nature. If it will be then it's not physics anymore. In my country there is "computational physics" degree which is more or less double major in physics and computer science. It's marketable because of computer science part not because of physics. But engineering physics is not working as a degree because you need more advanced knowledge for engineering positions.

A half competent Engineering or Physics graduate who is able to present themselves well is more likely to be earning reasonable money than the equivalent Arts or Humanities graduate. And there is a lot of satisfaction when they connect up their circuits and the lamp actually turns on.

Do not look down on arts/humanities degrees. Lots of those can prepare you for jobs in marketing, hr, project management or translations. To be honest they can be much more marketable than physics - big companies love if you have a degree in chinese or scandinavian studies + soft skills and you are done. But for technical positions you need specific "hard" skillset. That being said when you decide to study art history or archaeology you know you won't get a job afterwards. But it's different with physics. And you need to learn to code from scratch. Be it humanities or physics.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Langauge qualifications are essential Training - as far as employers are concerned. It’s Vocational in most cases. It can be very desirable to have several languages - but native English speakers tend to be very lazy about that.
Non Science grads who I know have mostly not gone into modestly paid jobs. Physics and Engineering grads tend to end up with comfortable but not flashy paid jobs.

 

[Locrian]

That's exactly it. I think everyone need to accept fact that there will be low enrollment in physics because it's not very marketable by nature.

Disagree - the general public has a very high view of those capable of getting the degree. It's just hard to actually employ them because they are missing critical skills necessary for operating in the 21st century.

Admittedly, it's hard to tell. Most Physics BS programs are stuck in the 1960's (at best). My contention is that if they updated their curriculum we would see a different outcome, but since most of them seem to take an unusual pride in how backwards the education there is, it's tough to know.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Do not look down on arts/humanities degrees.

I am not "looking down" on them. I just see so many of those graduates having to take low status and initially boring jobs and needing to pull themselves up through the hierarchy, not using any of what they learned during their degree course - except possibly being able to write competently. That's something that can be missing with Engineering and Science graduates.
This contrasts even with many 'holiday jobs' in Science and Engineering establishments where even school students get to experience real life Science. I had a job delivering Cornish Cream Products at a little dairy when I was about eighteen. I got to do actual fat content tests on actual cream samples to determine if they were in spec to be sold. I felt like a real Scientist. Better than counting paper clips in an ordinary office job.
I just thought. No one seems to have brought up the idea of Teaching as a career. ?

 

[pi-r8]

Disagree - the general public has a very high view of those capable of getting the degree. It's just hard to actually employ them because they are missing critical skills necessary for operating in the 21st century.

Admittedly, it's hard to tell. Most Physics BS programs are stuck in the 1960's (at best). My contention is that if they updated their curriculum we would see a different outcome, but since most of them seem to take an unusual pride in how backwards the education there is, it's tough to know.

How would you modernize it? I don't see a lot of cases where a company has a job position for a "physicist" and they can't fill it because "these young people just don't know enough modern physics!" They'll have jobs for programmers or statisticians, and I'm sure you could help the physics students get those jobs by teaching them more programming or statistics. But the students who really want to do real physics research as a career wouldn't like it, and the rest would wonder why they're not simply majoring in CS/statistics/Data Science.

 

[pi-r8]

I am not "looking down" on them. I just see so many of those graduates having to take low status and initially boring jobs and needing to pull themselves up through the hierarchy, not using any of what they learned during their degree course - except possibly being able to write competently. That's something that can be missing with Engineering and Science graduates.
This contrasts even with many 'holiday jobs' in Science and Engineering establishments where even school students get to experience real life Science. I had a job delivering Cornish Cream Products at a little dairy when I was about eighteen. I got to do actual fat content tests on actual cream samples to determine if they were in spec to be sold. I felt like a real Scientist. Better than counting paper clips in an ordinary office job.
I just thought. No one seems to have brought up the idea of Teaching as a career. ?

I'm glad you were able to get a "real" science job at 18. Seems like most jobs like that in physics would be either automated or done by professional engineers these days though.

Teaching is a fine career, and I agree that's something that's pretty in-demand and could require a physics degree. But I still wouldn't call it being a physicist. I think most physics students imagine themselves *doing* physics, specifically some sort of cutting-edge research. Teaching basic physics to teenagers is just a completely different job, and not one that most of us would be any good at. And it often requires some sort of education degree too.

 

[Rika]

I am not "looking down" on them. I just see so many of those graduates having to take low status and initially boring jobs and needing to pull themselves up through the hierarchy, not using any of what they learned during their degree course - except possibly being able to write competently. That's something that can be missing with Engineering and Science graduates.
This contrasts even with many 'holiday jobs' in Science and Engineering establishments where even school students get to experience real life Science. I had a job delivering Cornish Cream Products at a little dairy when I was about eighteen. I got to do actual fat content tests on actual cream samples to determine if they were in spec to be sold. I felt like a real Scientist. Better than counting paper clips in an ordinary office job.
I just thought. No one seems to have brought up the idea of Teaching as a career. ?

Good for you but most physics majors won't use physics knowledge in their jobs too. Most programming or "city" jobs don't need physics knowledge at all. You use physics when you work as engineer but it's hard to become one without degree. And if you work in social media marketing it's not boring at all so it's not like there are only "office jobs" after humanities. The point is it's hard to use physics in your career after physics major.

 

[Crass_Oscillator]

A BS in physics isn't going to render you competent enough to do almost anything involving actual physics in industry. Any serious engineering company has applied physicists on staff with degrees from various departments, but almost all of them have PhD's.

If you want a job doing physics, get a PhD doing device physics, materials physics, fluid mechanics etc.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Good for you but most physics majors won't use physics knowledge in their jobs too.

Of course not. But the thing about Physics is that it promotes an attitude to problem solving that makes well educated Physicists flexible enough to deal with any problem. If yours is the sort of mind that can cope with QM, most other 'complicated' problems are very manageable.

I'm glad you were able to get a "real" science job at 18. Seems like most jobs like that in physics would be either automated or done by professional engineers these days though.

The Engineering Research Department I worked in for 24 years provided work experience posts for students from A level to University and I can tell you that every one of the students I knew were given real tasks that challenged their individual abilities. There was no shortage of interesting problems to deal with.

Most Physics BS programs are stuck in the 1960's (at best). My contention is that if they updated their curriculum we would see a different outcome,

It's hard to find the optimum path through this one. The fact is that Physics is an ever widening field and a basic Physics course cannot cover more than a fraction. School Physics has tried to include 'interesting' topics to such an extent that the basics have already been glossed over. No one accepts deferred gratification so sophisticated topics are taught without giving students the tools to deal with them. Pictorial explanations and simulations are expected to be enough. Consequently, the first year at University has to be a 'Foundation' year. So, in something like four ten week terms (or equivalent) they have to deliver all the basics of a very hard subject. You can't afford to deliver the body of recent Physics if you want students to be in a position to cope with what they're being told about.
How can it be that a brief course about say, quantum entanglement can do anything really useful for a student who is still having problems with the Copenhagen Interpretation.
In my opinion, a Physics Course from the 60's could in fact almost provide a modern job seeker with the skills needed for many modern jobs - if you add knowledge of some of the more modern Maths Tools and include some knowledge the fundamental particles that have since emerged.

 

[jfmcghee]

I'll chime in here for the high school teacher perspective.

Was the physics degree worth it for me? Absolutely. Would I have chosen it under different circumstances? Possibly, but I think that I may have been disappointed with the result because while it was relatively easy to find a teaching position (with no teaching degree or experience), there were considerably fewer private opportunities.

I knew from childhood that I would end up teaching, coming from a family of teachers, but I knew that I would pursue it as a second career. When I joined the military I knew I had found my first career. When I got the chance to become an officer, I knew that I could pick whatever degree I wanted because no matter what I was going to be shipped back to the fleet. So I chose physics because it is what I loved since before high school physics, I wouldn't have to worry about finding a civilian job with it, and it would give me an edge getting into flight school (which immediately made the degree worth it.)

When my flying career came to an end, the physics degree became incredibly useful in that I didn't even have to leave the last town I was stationed near. The local high school was looking for a physics teacher and that's what I wanted to do. There were loads of physics positions open all over the area, so it wasn't just good fortune. Of course I'm not a practicing physicist, but I get to talk with students all day about the subject I love. For my situation I can't imagine a more worthwhile degree.

 

[CH WILSON]

If physics is what you are interested in it isn't a waste of time. That said it might be a waste of money here in the US but somehow I doubt it.

I joke however that if I had it to do over again rather than put my daughter through college I would buy her a road grader or some similar piece of heavy equipment figuring this would be a job that couldn't be outsourced. But it could be automated...

 

[Charles Link]

I'm currently retired, but I am very happy I took the route of physics that I did. Other professions perhaps have better pay, but I simply could not have done it any other way. Doing calculations is what I wanted to do.

 

[CrysPhys]

I joke however that if I had it to do over again rather than put my daughter through college I would buy her a road grader or some similar piece of heavy equipment figuring this would be a job that couldn't be outsourced. But it could be automated...

Actually, not so far away. I once drafted an extensive patent application portfolio for a company specializing in control systems for construction equipment, including power shovels, bulldozers ... and motorgraders. Skilled operators are hard to come by, so the goal is to automate operations as much as possible.

 

[Zap]

If you study physics, unless you are the best of the best, you are going to make your life a living nightmare.

 

[sophiecentaur]

If you study physics, unless you are the best of the best, you are going to make your life a living nightmare.

Things may have changed a bit since I was a lad but when I started with Physics (a modest 2.2 BSc), in an Engineering establishment, it was as useful as the Engineering degrees that other trainees had.
I think your view must be the result of a disappointing experience.

 

[Zap]

Yes. I am having a bit of trouble. I think it's a lot harder these days to cross over into engineering with a physics degree. Physics degrees aren't ABET accredited. I don't see any reason why an employer would choose a physicist over an engineer. I think that a physics degree is probably just as useful as engineering in that it prepares you for job training in a technical field, but it seems like employers don't share the same perspective.

At my school's career fair, I tried speaking with two companies who rejected me right away just for not having an engineering degree. Because my degree is in chemistry and physics, I tried speaking with ExxonMobile, and they immediately told me they were not interested upon hearing that I did not have an engineering degree. They didn't want to hear anything else I had to say about it. The other company was a nuclear power plant. They told me they are hiring mechanical and electrical engineers. If you do not have that degree, we cannot help you.

I've probably applied to around 100 jobs, and I haven't received a single interview. The only job offer I got was for 12 dollars an hour at some THC extraction lab as a technician. It didn't require an interview. I couldn't take it, because I have no money to relocate and at 12 an hour what would be the point? I applied to the military, but there is an incident on my medical record, and they basically told me to find another career. I'm basically pulling my hair out right now.

Maybe the issue is with me and not my degree. I don't know. At this point, I have about 4 years of laboratory research experience at my school. It's not the best experience, but it's something. I wasn't able to publish anything, because most of what we do is related to commercial instruments or government projects. I graduated with a 3.66. It's not the best, but it's descent. It should be enough for an entry level job. I'm not sure if pursuing more education is a wise idea, either. I'm turning 30 next year, and I don't have any money. It seems like I dug myself into a hole. I'm still trying, but I couldn't have imagined it would be this difficult.

 

[Locrian]

Maybe the issue is with me and not my degree.

What's the difference at this point, really? It's not like the degree chose you, or that it happened by accident. Don't get me wrong, you were probably lied to along the way - despite hand waving in this forum about the degree being not a "vocational" one, almost every physics degree website contains glowing remarks about the employment prospects, and you probably had vague assurances from people you trusted that everything would be okay. (And they're probably right, just not in the way you thought).

But still, we've been having the same stories being told in this forum about how awful the degree is for over a decade. More importantly, we've had people proudly expressing how much the degree isn't meant to make you employable for over a decade - and that should be a pretty clear signal. All the info you needed to avoid this problem was available, and this is still where you're at. Don't let that bother you too much, you're in good company here - or at least some kind of company ;)

So starting now, decide to do something different. On the downside, you are probably light in skills considered useful in the modern economy. On the upside, a physics degree is difficult to get, generally well regarded, and the mathematical background can serve as a platform for many other successful careers. Time to start networking, identifying new routes, and testing new paths. Ask around this forum for where people went after a BS in physics and see if any of them work for you. Most won't, but you only need one that will. You're not going to get a single viable solution, but you may get a solution pool from which you can find an avenue towards success.

You've probably considered some alternate routes, but how well did you explore them? Did you know how people get employed in those careers? I think it's great you've sent 100 resumes - next is to make sure you sent the right 100 resumes for the right 100 positions.

Message me if you have any questions I can help with, and I wish you the very best in your journey.

 

[Zap]

I was studying chemistry and about to graduate. I felt miserable about being a chemical technician, and I wasn't interested enough in the subject to pursue graduate school, so I switched to physics thinking it would be different. I thought posts like this were coming from people who got terrible grades or did zero research or extracurricular stuff during their degree. I didn't think it would happen to me, but here I am.

In my search, I've come across some amazing opportunities for people with a Bachelor of Science in chemistry and physics, but so far no one has shown any interest. They are probably super competitive. I know I should have been looking for a job way sooner. I should have been looking before I went to school, but you know how it is. Everyone is pushing you to go, for whatever reason. If I didn't go, I'd probably still be working at Walmart. So, whatever, the alternative wasn't very lucrative, either.

I'm currently in an MS physics program. I just went because I asked the department head where I can find a job, and he told me he would hire me as a TA if I applied to the grad school. I'm not sure if that was a good idea. I've pretty much hated the entire time I've been in the program. I can barely make ends meet, but I'm finished by May 2019. I had been applying to jobs hoping I could drop out and start working, but no one took me. Do you think an MS in EE is a good idea, considering my age? The university of louisville has the only ABET accredited MS program in EE in existence, and it doesn't seem like a hard school to get into. If I really can't find a good job with a physics degree, that may be a path to getting there.

Your advice is good. I am searching every day for something.

 

[Choppy]

If you study physics, unless you are the best of the best, you are going to make your life a living nightmare.

If you're looking for advice on a job-hunt after having completed a physics degree, maybe it would be better not to start out with such confrontational statements.

Yes, getting a job with a physics degree can be a challenge, particularly when you're comparing your experience against other professionally-oriented programs like engineering. But it's not impossible. Here are a couple tips:

Present yourself professionally at all times... even when you are seemingly anonymous online. The first reaction I have when I see a statement such as that above is to either ignore it, or argue against it, not to figure out if I can help the person on the other end get a job. I am someone who is sometimes on hiring committees that hire BSc-level physics graduates. Others on this forum may be in similar situations. I'm not saying we can all get you jobs. But you never know when you're cutting off potential leads.

100 applications is a lot not to hear back from any of them. If the shotgun approach isn't working, maybe you need to try something different. If there's a particular field you're trying to get into, maybe you can try to attend a conference in your area. Or perhaps you could try to land a job shadow. Talk as much as you can with people that are working in that field. They might not be in positions to hire, but may no others who are. And which jobs to avoid. And which hoops you need to jump through.

 

[Zap]

I'm going to try to talk to one of my professors next week. I have been trying the networking route. It's still tough, though.

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate your response.

I think perhaps my qualifications aren't stellar or I'm not presenting myself appropriately. I can email my resume, if anyone is interested. I work in an instrument development lab, but my main role has been analyzing data. That kind of happened randomly and it forced me to acquire some skills in it. I really like creating programs that can analyze large and multiple sets of data. I like the problem solving and spatial thinking required to create a program to do what you want. I would love to get into an analyst type position equally as much as an R&D type position. My chemistry background also allows me to apply to some jobs in manufacturing, which I also think sounds interesting. I like the idea of process optimization.

I also still like chemistry and physics. I applied to a job in molecular spectroscopy which sounded amazing. There was also a job involving diamond anvil cell measurements that only required a master's degree which also sounded amazing. I also have a minor in biochemistry and worked in a molecular biology lab for one summer.

I've found a good amount of careers that I would feel elated getting started in, but so far I've not had any luck getting my foot in the door.

 

[Umaxo]

So much bad experiences in here:(...
Just to balance, i add my:

I don't know about some random physics degree from noname village university, but at least one physics degree from one particular university in my country i studied at has very high worth (and the university is for free, anyone can apply and will be automaticly accepted and all the proffesors do the best they can to help their students pass). It seems to me, it depends more on the university than the "physics" adjective.

Just one example from my experience:
I recently graduated from theoretical physics (actually it was 2 months ago), which took me (together with some break when i was - so to say - "looking for myself") 8 years against usual 5. My only noticeable work experience was research in numerical quantum chemistry, i was not very good programmer and all together my applicable skills were almost null.

However, i sent my c.v. to few companies and 2 days later i got invited to my first interview for acturial mathematician job. I succesfully managed to demonstrate i don't know anything, when my future boss gave me very simple task in excel. I was not able to do it at all, i just starred at the sheet for few minutes and that was it. And they took me. And for - what i consider - very, very good pay.

After that i got invited to few more interviews, at every one of them they looked impressed simply by my degree and all of them knew i don't have any actuall skill. The interviews felt like they were trying to sell their company to me instead of me trying to sell myself to them.

So i have very very good experiences with my physics degree and so does everyone i know from the same faculty.

 

[Zap]

You are very lucky or very smart. I have blamed my university countless of times, but at the end of the day, I chose to go there and I have to deal with my current situation and find a way to move forward. Felt like they fed me to the wolves once I graduated, so to speak. Congratulations on starting your career.

 

[Zap]

I may have an opportunity to work for a start up. The salary is not fantastic, but the work they are doing is interesting. It seemed like they were ready to hire anyone.

 

[ZapperZ]

I will go back to the very beginning and answer the question in the topic:

Physicists and physics majors, was it worth it?

My answer: Absolutely, Definitely, 100% YES!

Zz.

 

[Zap]

#170's advice is okay. <Mentor note: the post that was #170 is now deleted, due to its violation of forum rules> When searching for a job, you need to step outside of academia and start thinking more like a business person. It really is all about networking and charisma. You need to leave your stupid little textbooks behind, get out of the house and start meeting important people. Unless you graduate from an IV league school, if all you do is write a resume with your physics degree, high GPA and some irrelevant research experience on it, you ain't going to go anywhere.

This start up company I mentioned has zero jobs posted online. If I didn't skip my class, get off my ass and start talking to people, I would have never had a chance to apply.

It's also a good idea to go to the gym. I know half of you physics majors look like women.

 

[symbolipoint]

Zap, maybe I misunderstood the intended message from post #170. One should study hard, make good choices among any advice given, and learn things which would be useful or important to employers, in case just the minimum Physics degree does not provide it. When one looks for employment one will need to talk to and interact with people.

 

[Zap]

What does a physics major learn that is useful to employers, besides the very basics like some mathematical and problem solving ability? I think I have more to offer employers based on the person I am rather than this dumb degree.

 

[ZapperZ]

What does a physics major learn that is useful to employers, besides the very basics like some mathematical and problem solving ability? I think I have more to offer employers based on the person I am rather than this dumb degree.

And what have your sparkling personality gotten you so far?

Zz.