- #106
Khashishi
Science Advisor
- 2,813
- 492
Maybe the timeline is simply an open set: (0,infinity) and not a closed set [0,infinity). The limit point of the expansion simply isn't part of the model.
Khashishi said:The limit point of the expansion simply isn't part of the model.
The BB is NOT about the observable universe, that's just, by definition, the part that we can see. There are things that are currently just outside the OU that will move INTO the OU at some point in the future and there are things in the OU that were not in the OU 10billion years ago.dragoneyes001 said:another question then: if the big bang is about the "observable" Universe which seems the case from the previous explanation. is the unobservable void which is being called infinite changing in relation to the observable?
I *THINK* that I'm quoting Marcus on this. I'll PM him and see if we can get him to chime in. I may be misrepresenting what he has said but I don't think so.Chronos said:Phinds, I disagree. We already 'see' the CMB. What do you expect to enter our observable horizon from beyond that?
More CMB.Chronos said:Phinds, I disagree. We already 'see' the CMB. What do you expect to enter our observable horizon from beyond that?
That's not what I'm referring to. Marcus has shown (unless I'm badly remembering his posts) that objects (e.g. galaxies) just slightly outside the observable universe will move into the OU over time.bapowell said:More CMB.
Sure, except for those currently outside the cosmological event horizon. Recall that the particle horizon is currently inside the event horizon, so there are galaxies -- those that are in between the two horizons -- that are not currently observable but one day will be.phinds said:That's not what I'm referring to. Marcus has shown (unless I'm badly remembering his posts) that objects (e.g. galaxies) just slightly outside the observable universe will move into the OU over time.
Hi dragoneyes, partly you are asking about the technical meaning of the words. In cosmology-speak, the observable universe contains all the matter from which we could have already, in principle, received some signal. So it is a constantly growing region of the universe. Not only is it expanding by ordinary distance growth but it is also enlarging as news from more and more distant matter comes in. We don't have any evidence of a "void" outside.dragoneyes001 said:another question then: if the big bang is about the "observable" Universe which seems the case from the previous explanation. is the unobservable void which is being called infinite changing in relation to the observable?
That sums it up really really well. We are simply getting straight on what cosmologists MEAN when they say "observable universe".phinds said:The BB is NOT about the observable universe, that's just, by definition, the part that we can see. There are things that are currently just outside the OU that will move INTO the OU at some point in the future and there are things in the OU that were not in the OU 10billion years ago.
...
marcus said:it is a constantly growing region of the universe. Not only is it expanding by ordinary distance growth but it is also enlarging as news from more and more distant matter comes in.
bapowell said:Sure, except for those currently outside the cosmological event horizon. Recall that the particle horizon is currently inside the event horizon, so there are galaxies -- those that are in between the two horizons -- that are not currently observable but one day will be.
The above question is one that I have been comtemplating as well, and dragon eyes phrased it exctly as I would have.dragoneyes001 said:I think this is where things get either misinterpreted or muddled. because as I'm understanding it the universe was smaller and then expanded but as has been said that would create a center from which everything is expanding away from which if I'm not mistaken is not the case right?
Hi Peter, the third panel of Lineweaver's figure 1 is potentially so helpful here I will try to copy it into a post. I can't think of any reason that the OU should "shrink" in terms of the amount of matter it contains. the matter could get rearranged in ways that would change the count of "how many objects". But I don't think that is what you mean. I think you mean the matter it contains, in whatever form.PeterDonis said:At some point, though, if the expansion of the universe continues to accelerate, the latter effect will reverse, won't it? That is, as the expansion accelerates, eventually objects that are now inside our observable universe will move outside it, because they will pass beyond the cosmological event horizon. So the OU will continue to grow in terms of distance, but it will eventually start to "shrink" in terms of how many objects are in it.
Your last statement is correct. It is not the case. Expansion does not necessarily "create a center"dragoneyes001 said:...the universe was smaller and then expanded but as has been said that would create a center from which everything is expanding away from which if I'm not mistaken is not the case right?
You could look at some of the Cosmology FAQs or at the "balloon model" sticky thread. Or Phinds has a balloon model webpage, the link is in his signature.CaptDude said:The above question is one that I have been comtemplating as well, and dragon eyes phrased it exctly as I would have.
dragoneyes001 said:I think this is where things get either misinterpreted or muddled. because as I'm understanding it the universe was smaller and then expanded but as has been said that would create a center from which everything is expanding away from which if I'm not mistaken is not the case right?
CaptDude said:The above question is one that I have been comtemplating as well, and dragon eyes phrased it exctly as I would have.
CaptDude said:The above question is one that I have been comtemplating as well, and dragon eyes phrased it exctly as I would have.
I also have another question which is as follows. (and like a lot of my questions, I know this one is not correct. But the answers will help me get to where I am trying to go): The big bang created time, space and energy/matter.
Space/time was expanded through the process of inflation to a size (either finite or infinite) far larger (hence the unobservable universe) than signal emitting sources of matter. (the observable universe)
Stephen Weinberg would seriously disagree w/ you since you have just called his entire book "The First Three Minutes" nothing but guesswork.Drakkith said:What may have happened in the universe prior to this is unknown
phinds said:Stephen Weinberg would seriously disagree w/ you since you have just called his entire book "The First Three Minutes" nothing but guesswork.
Alternate theories of modified gravity (Google "MOND") are old hat. Some folks like them but they do not do a good job of explaining the universe. Google "the bullet cluster", for example.Monsterboy said:I read that dark matter is that which is holding galaxies together , is it possible that dark matter doesn't really exist and that our understanding of gravity is incomplete ?
Chronos said:Of course it is possible that neither dark matter or dark energy truly exists. The problem is they remain the best explanation for the many different observations we have accumulated over the history of science. Until better explanations emerge, they will remain so.
CaptDude said:Its good to hear someone with your pedigree make this statement. I for one, have had a long standing problem with dark matter.
CaptDude said:Obviously, I can understand the literal meaning of the phrase "the big bang happened everywhere at once" But I have never read a satisfactory explanation that eloquently helped me understand this concept...
phinds said:No edge means just that. No edge. An edge implies a center and a center implies a preferred frame of reference and we know empirically that such does not exist.
Your statement about the ruler seems to imply that a MEASURE of distance changes over distance and/or time but that is false. The distance between things in the early universe was less than it is now, but the MEASURE of distance has not changed.