Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

[russ_watters]

@Tom.G that sounds like a weird effect. I think such rare effects would be hard to trace back to either vaccine or anything else for that matter. But I'm not saying it can't be.

Yeah, have you consulted a doctor about any of those? Are they listed as known side effects anywhere?

 

[Grasshopper]

I mean, honestly these are so uncommon I don’t see how simple coincidence isn’t as good an explanation.

 

[Laroxe]

I wonder if people have considered that during the vaccination program its usually 3-4 weeks after the second dose that people get the highest levels of protection. It might, possibly, be longer as the immune response continues to mature for some time. However, there are no guarantees that people cannot become infected, people look at the decreased risk at various points in the process, and It's worth remembering that getting vaccinated itself involves human contacts and can carry a risk of infection.
For the more severe adverse events it might be worth considering whether the person has actually caught Covid, which is running a modified course due to the partial immunity.

Myocarditis has been recognised as a potential adverse event and can cause chest pain and palpitations though this is a rare side effect, its rarer still for it to cause significant problems, if significant demands on the heart are avoided. The nails bit did confuse me, I hadn't come across this before, but apparently it is being seen following Covid 19 infection, I found this which might be interesting. There are lots of comments on google about this, but I haven't seen any studies. It seems associated with actual infection rather than the vaccination.

Its strange to still see claims that the vaccine is experimental, the description used by regulators is authorisation for emergency use to describe its place in the validation process. There is no great urgency among regulators or the producers because the data is coming thick and fast, during the phase IV data is collected about the vaccine being used in real world settings. The fact that this data continues to be collected should be reassuring, some 4.93 billion doses have been administered, with a further 34 million added each day, no vaccine in history has had these sorts of numbers available for the continuing studies and safety monitoring
https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-nails-picture

 

[Tom.G]

Reply to the points raised by @artis, @Grasshopper, @Astronuc, @russ_watters

I agree it is weird, and unexpected! But then again, in comparison to other people my immune system seemed to go into overdrive from the vaccine. See the first few lines in the OP.

I posted following the requirements of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at
https://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/VAERSForm_Mar2021.pdf which states:
"Adverse events are possible reactions or problems that occur during or after vaccination."

I deduced the possible connection between the vaccine and the finger nails because the timing from the vaccine matched the nail growth rate of 3.5mm per month and nail length around 15mm, and that the nail condition was a one-time event.

Though it still could be a coincidence.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Astronuc]

A local personality apparently received a third vaccine (booster). Afterward, the person had a headache, high fever and lethargy. I confirmed it was Moderna, so I'm not surprised. Apparently the person has an immune system issue; I don't know the details.

My doctor informed me the other day, the he and some staff received the Pfizer vaccine, and other staff had Moderna. None of those who received Pfizer had strong reaction to the second shot. In contrast, in the group which received Moderna, several felt ill, and two were sent home because they could barely function (as if they had a bad cold).

 

[artis]

I can confirm that from those that I know Moderna on average seems to cause much nastier side effects, at least much more noticeable, than Pfizer. Not sure why , whether the vaccines really differ in anything but a fried of mine a young dude in his 20's with good health had some 2 weeks written off from life he was feeling like "dying" , nothing extreme ofcourse but overall very tired and exhausted , headache, fever here and there etc.
I'd say that for those that are unlucky the vaccine side effects feel somewhat like Covid , I had Covid and many whom I know had side effects from vaccines and surely effects are similar only difference is Covid ones are more dangerous , like pneumonia , although on rare occasions vaccine side effects are also dangerous like myocarditis or blood clots.
I think truth be told there is no golden neutral path here, each path has it's own risks and benefits.
Most of the folks I know had Covid in a light way and after a week or so continued on with their daily smoking/drinking/working/sporting whatever, some like me had pneumonia. If I could exchange my case with theirs I would be happy but truth be told our body is so complex and there are so many variables that one can never know before hand. One thing is for sure, lots of fresh air , good sleep and no stress + sporting goes along way.I think one of the main reasons why Covid can attain the death levels it can (which are not that high but could be lower yet) is because we may have a large civilization of around 8 billion but many of those 8 billion are either old or sick or have underlying health conditions and are able to live simply due to the luxuries and ease of modern life (cars, healthcare, drugs, assistance etc)
Even for the bad cases if the body has been in good shape before , a timely and correct treatment in hospital typically gets folks out in 2-4 weeks.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

The Moderna vaccine uses a higher dose (100µg) than the Pfizer vaccine (30µg), which is probably one reason why there may be more severe side effects from the Moderna vaccine. Pfizer compared 10, 30, and 100µg doses in their Phase 1/2 trials and saw more side effects from the 100µg dose than the 30µg dose (e.g. here's reports of side effects within 7 days of receiving dose 1 in the phase 1/2 trial):

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2639-4

 

[Grasshopper]

I can confirm that from those that I know Moderna on average seems to cause much nastier side effects, at least much more noticeable, than Pfizer. Not sure why , whether the vaccines really differ in anything but a fried of mine a young dude in his 20's with good health had some 2 weeks written off from life he was feeling like "dying" , nothing extreme ofcourse but overall very tired and exhausted , headache, fever here and there etc.
I'd say that for those that are unlucky the vaccine side effects feel somewhat like Covid , I had Covid and many whom I know had side effects from vaccines and surely effects are similar only difference is Covid ones are more dangerous , like pneumonia , although on rare occasions vaccine side effects are also dangerous like myocarditis or blood clots.
I think truth be told there is no golden neutral path here, each path has it's own risks and benefits.
Most of the folks I know had Covid in a light way and after a week or so continued on with their daily smoking/drinking/working/sporting whatever, some like me had pneumonia. If I could exchange my case with theirs I would be happy but truth be told our body is so complex and there are so many variables that one can never know before hand. One thing is for sure, lots of fresh air , good sleep and no stress + sporting goes along way.I think one of the main reasons why Covid can attain the death levels it can (which are not that high but could be lower yet) is because we may have a large civilization of around 8 billion but many of those 8 billion are either old or sick or have underlying health conditions and are able to live simply due to the luxuries and ease of modern life (cars, healthcare, drugs, assistance etc)
Even for the bad cases if the body has been in good shape before , a timely and correct treatment in hospital typically gets folks out in 2-4 weeks.

I feel like the golden path can be found by comparing death rates, which overwhelmingly favor getting vaccinated.

 

[phinds]

I feel like the golden path can be found by comparing death rates, which overwhelmingly favor getting vaccinated.

Sure, but do you think that matters to the tens of millions of Americans who are not vaccinated and are not going to get vaccinated?

 

[Grasshopper]

Sure, but do you think that matters to the tens of millions of Americans who are not vaccinated and are not going to get vaccinated?

(What follows disregards those with health issues that, according to the medical mainstream, makes them unsuitable for vaccines)Probably not. At the risk of getting banned, there doesn’t seem to be much that can be done to convince the under 100 IQ portion of the population, or those who filter out mainstream science for some illogical contrarian disposition that compels them to always look for the “alternative” answer.

I honestly have no idea. Especially the ones suffering from the Duning-Kruger effect.

Perhaps the best solution is to simply let them choose between exclusion or vaccination. For Americans, we’ll have to depend on the hope that the Supreme Court will not choose “muh freedoms” over peer reviewed science. For other nations, I couldn’t say. Some nations are better than others at rejecting ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Hopefully enough high profile anti-science people die, like Phil Valentine (RIP). I’ve seen anecdotal evidence that his death convinced at least some to temporarily disregard Newsmax, Facebook, Infowars and the other idiot factory media sources that reject mainstream science long enough to get vaccinated.

In conclusion, as polite, rational discourse has not appeared to work, perhaps it’s time to try constant ridicule and bullying? I don’t know. I admit to being a frustrated fool. But clearly being nice isn’t working.

 

[artis]

As someone who has had Covid myself I am in no way an anti vax activist , I feel I have to say this just in case due to the high tension climate we now live in.
I want to report on what seems like a rare side effect from the Covid Pfizer Vaccine, possibly other vaccine makers as well we don't know for now.
Today I got a video from a friend and the video shows a local woman in a local hospital telling about the fact that she got vaccinated and now is administered to the hospital and is diagnosed with as she said "brain meningitis" .
At first I thought this is one of those never ending anti vaxx stunts as I have never heard of such a form of meningitis.
Me being me I decided to check it out , and indeed there can be such a medical condition.
And I found a paper from Japan where another woman was hospitalized with "aseptic meningitis" .
Here is the paper.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-021-05543-1

 

[Borg]

Purely anecdotal story - my wife has a friend who swears that after the vaccine, she developed an eye twitch that wouldn't go away for weeks. As a professional photographer, I'm guessing that was pretty bothesome for her.

 

[Grasshopper]

Meanwhile a serious side effect of COVID 19 is death, and it’s way more common than these serious vaccine side effects.

 

[symbolipoint]

Meanwhile a serious side effect of COVID 19 is death, and it’s way more common than these serious vaccine side effects.

This can be like, "Do you want to be vaccinated and risk getting sick, or do you want to go unvaccinated and risk getting badly sick and dying?

 

[phinds]

Are they listed as known side effects anywhere?

Speaking of Covid vaccination side effects ...

Old guy has basically locked himself in his house for a year and is just now getting his second vaccination shot. Over the moon w/ joy he thinks, OK 15 minutes here to check for no side effects, then two more weeks at home just to be extra careful and then I'm DONE w/ this crap! I'm going to live my life again.

Waits 15 minutes, no side effects, gets in his car grinning ear to ear and then on the way home he realizes that his vision has gotten blurry. AH JEEZ, he thinks. NOW WHAT ?

So he gets home in a funk, calls back to the pharmacist and explains the situation and says doc, I never even heard of blurred vision because of this vaccine. Should I call my regular doctor or my eye doctor?

Pharmacist says you don't need to call ANY doctor, just get back over here and get your glasses off our counter.

 

[phinds]

This can be like, "Do you want to be vaccinated and risk getting sick, or do you want to go unvaccinated and risk getting badly sick and dying?

I think it's more like "Do you want to run a trivial risk of feeling mildly bad for a day or a mild risk of feeling quite bad for a couple of weeks or a serious risk of ... "

 

[StevieTNZ]

My social worker got nausea after his first dose of Pfzier. That frightened me enough, though all I had was a sore arm the next day. My second dose is due to be administered 12 Sept.

 

[Laroxe]

As someone who has had Covid myself I am in no way an anti vax activist , I feel I have to say this just in case due to the high tension climate we now live in.
I want to report on what seems like a rare side effect from the Covid Pfizer Vaccine, possibly other vaccine makers as well we don't know for now.
Today I got a video from a friend and the video shows a local woman in a local hospital telling about the fact that she got vaccinated and now is administered to the hospital and is diagnosed with as she said "brain meningitis" .
At first I thought this is one of those never ending anti vaxx stunts as I have never heard of such a form of meningitis.
Me being me I decided to check it out , and indeed there can be such a medical condition.
And I found a paper from Japan where another woman was hospitalized with "aseptic meningitis" .
Here is the paper.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-021-05543-1

It's certainly interesting, but the case report from Japan left me rather confused, I wonder why they attributed this to the vaccination. A recognized, though rare, cause of this condition is the use of anti-inflammatory drugs, and there are case reports, which seems to present a similar clinical picture, associated with Loxoprofen.

It is seen following MMR vaccination & rarely with some others, with the MMR symptoms tend to occur 20 to 30 days after vaccination.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03009740310003767

 

[Evo]

I went to the local CVS pharmacy in the Target store 2 miles away, had my pick of appointments, chose Pfizer, went in, sat down got my injection, felt nothing, got a $5 coupon to shop with and entered in a $5,000 contest. Scheduled my next shot for 3 weeks later.

Had a bit of soreness at the injection site, was gone when I woke up the next day.

Went in for my 2nd vaccine, no waiting again, sat down got the shot, didn't feel it, got another $5 coupon.

Later that day my upper arm was a bit more sore, oddly I couldn't raise my arm above shoulder level. no other symptoms, Woke up the next day and was fine. Evo child said she had the same thing, we are clones.

Don't be afraid to get the Pfizer vaccine.

So funny, Evo Child has REFUSED to get a flu shot every year, she has some anti-vax people in her social network and they scared her, she wouldn't believe me that the shots weren't a live virus, only the nasal spray is, and they are weakened, so as not to cause infection. She said she's never had the flu, so she doubted she would catch it, I sure hope she gets her flu shot this year. When Covid hit, as soon as she was eligible to get vaccinated she was the first in line! Now her doctor has authorized her for the booster.

 

[fresh_42]

I went to the local CVS pharmacy in the Target store 2 miles away, had my pick of appointments, chose Pfizer, went in, sat down got my injection, felt nothing, got a $5 coupon to shop with and entered in a $5,000 contest. Scheduled my next shot for 3 weeks later.

Had a bit of soreness at the injection site, was gone when I woke up the next day.

Went in for my 2nd vaccine, no waiting again, sat down got the shot, didn't feel it, got another $5 coupon.

Later that day my upper arm was a bit more sore, oddly I couldn't raise my arm above shoulder level. no other symptoms, Woke up the next day and was fine. Evo child said she had the same thing, we are clones.

Don't be afraid to get the Pfizer vaccine.

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

 

[Grasshopper]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

 

[phinds]

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

Exactly. For hospitalizations, it's even more dramatic. Different locale's reports range from 20 to 1 to 50 to 1. I even saw one that claimed 99 to 1 but that was an outlier.

 

[nsaspook]

3rd shot of Pfizer last month because of medical reasons. Reaction? Nothing, just like the first two.

 

[atyy]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

We are currently facing wave #4. I wonder where all those infections come from. They cannot all be breakthrough infections. I look up the daily numbers like a weather report. We are above 200 infections per week per 100,000 citizens. I do not understand it.

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%, if asymptomatic infections are included; and about 60% to 90% if only symptomatic infections are included. The important thing is that protection against hospitalization, severe disease and death remains high around 90% (UK: 91-98% (Table 3, p8), Israel: 82-99% (Table S4, p20), Bahrain: 97% (Pfizer), Sinopharm (85%) (rough conversion by me from odds ratios in Table 4, p11).

 

[bhobba]

Pretty much the same here. I could copy and paste your report. That Pfizer thingy (BionTech here) is really no problem.

Same here with AZ.

Thanks
Bill

 

[artis]

Well vaccination before infection reduces hospital admission and death that we now know, but it doesn't necessarily decrease the infected count that much because if my country is of any measure we have a population of about 2 million, currently there are almost 40% of fully vaccinated people, the average everyday infection rate roughly goes like 25-30% amongst the fully vaccinated vs 70% for unvaccinated.

 

[Grasshopper]

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%, if asymptomatic infections are included; and about 60% to 90% if only symptomatic infections are included. The important thing is that protection against hospitalization, severe disease and death remains high around 90% (UK: 91-98% (Table 3, p8), Israel: 82-99% (Table S4, p20), Bahrain: 97% (Pfizer), Sinopharm (85%) (rough conversion by me from odds ratios in Table 4, p11).

All of those studies I clicked on said vaccination reduces chances of infection, some by a very large amount. I don’t understand the hold up here.

Also one criticism I have of some studies on the topic is that some rely on patients reporting if they’re vaccinated or not, and I guarantee at least some bumpkins with COVID who realize they were dead wrong about it will lie and say they were vaccinated to not look stupid.

Of course I suppose asking is easier than getting permission for medical records, but that certainly is going to slightly skew the results. Maybe very little, but it will still affect it.

 

[atyy]

All of those studies I clicked on said vaccination reduces chances of infection, some by a very large amount. I don’t understand the hold up here.

Well, it depends on whether one considers 50% large or small.

Also one criticism I have of some studies on the topic is that some rely on patients reporting if they’re vaccinated or not, and I guarantee at least some bumpkins with COVID who realize they were dead wrong about it will lie and say they were vaccinated to not look stupid.

That's the first time I've heard that. It's more commonly said that there could be sampling problems in some (not all), for example, vaccinated people and unvaccinated people might not be going for tests at the same rate.

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination. So not accounting for that might decrease the apparent effectiveness of vaccination compared to being unvaccinated and not having recovered from an infection.

 

[symbolipoint]

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination.

Inclusive or exclusive of "delta variant"?

 

[atyy]

Inclusive or exclusive of "delta variant"?

Inclusive of Delta. Not sure which is more protective (different results from different studies), but both are protective.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1
Impact of Delta on viral burden and vaccine effectiveness against new SARS-CoV-2 infections
in the UK
"There was no evidence that the effectiveness of two ChAdOx1 vaccinations ≥14 days previously in preventing new PCR-positives differed from the protection afforded by previous natural infection without vaccination (heterogeneity p=0.33), whereas two BNT162b2 vaccinations afforded greater protection (p=0.04)."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections
"This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

 

[Grasshopper]

Well, it depends on whether one considers 50% large or small.

That's the first time I've heard that. It's more commonly said that there could be sampling problems in some (not all), for example, vaccinated people and unvaccinated people might not be going for tests at the same rate.

Also, many of the unvaccinated might have been infected, and that would also give them protection similar to vaccination. So not accounting for that might decrease the apparent effectiveness of vaccination compared to being unvaccinated and not having recovered from an infection.

That’s true. Quick general question to the biologists here:

If R is reproduction number and E is vaccine effectiveness, does this formula tell the percentage we need to vaccinate to get herd immunity?

$\frac{1 - \frac{1}{R}}{E}$

I can’t remember where I’ve seen that but it looks familiar.

 

[atyy]

That’s true.Quick general question to the biologists here:

If R is reproduction number and E is vaccine effectiveness, does this formula tell the percentage we need to vaccinate to get herd immunity?

$\frac{1 - \frac{1}{R}}{E}$

I can’t remember where I’ve seen that but it looks familiar.

That's in the simplest models, so it's a good rule of thumb:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077
“Herd Immunity”: A Rough Guide
Paul Fine, Ken Eames, David L. Heymann

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.20.2100428
The potential for vaccination-induced herd immunity against the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant
David Hodgson, Stefan Flasche, Mark Jit, Adam J Kucharski, CMMID COVID-19 Working Group

But one can have more complex models (in which it is hard to intuit the results), eg:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.26.21262579v1
Population impact of SARS-CoV-2 variants with enhanced transmissibility and/or partial immune escape
Mary Bushman, Rebecca Kahn, Bradford P. Taylor, Marc Lipsitch, William P. Hanage

 

[bhobba]

3rd shot of Pfizer last month because of medical reasons. Reaction? Nothing, just like the first two.

Third dose way to go for everyone. They are studying now the optimum time for the third dose. We know after 6 months from the second, it is 95% effective against Delta. I am very positive about this development.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

That's in the simplest models, so it's a good rule of thumb:

If V is the fraction vaccinated and E the fraction of vaccinated people the vaccine prevents getting infected, then the effective fraction that can be infected is (1 - E*V). If the reproduction number is R0, the effective reproduction number R is R = R0*(1- E*V). To die out R < 1. It will grow if R > 1. Set R = 1 to get the critical vaccination number. For Delta, the reproduction number R0 is about 7. Two doses Pfizer starts at 88% efficiency against Delta, so 1 = 7*(1 - .88*V) or V = (1 - 1/7)/.88 = .975, i.e. virtually everyone needs to be vaccinated. But against Delta, its effectiveness reduces by 22% every 30 days. So you can't vaccinate your way out of Delta with 2 doses of Phizer. Now a third dose after six months raises it to 95% efficiency. I will let you do the math. The result is over about 90%; you can vaccinate your way out of trouble. But how long does that 95% last; who knows? However, if we get high enough 3rd dose vaccination rates, we will have a good shot at controlling Delta. Isreal is doing just that, so we will soon know.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dlgoff]

Just waiting for the Moderna third shot. I think I heard it wouldn't be available until sometime in October. Hope there's no reaction.