Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

[symbolipoint]

Just waiting for the Moderna third shot. I think I heard it wouldn't be available until sometime in October. Hope there's no reaction.

Guessing, the same reaction if any as dose #1 and dose #2 (which were, none for me)

 

[bhobba]

Gee you guys are getting third doses rather soon. Remember it is thought you need about 6 months after the second dose to be really effective. It is being rolled out in Isreal because they were vaccinated early. Good thing too because Phizer, by reducing 22% per 30 days, overall it was only about 40% effective in Isreal.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dlgoff]

Gee you guys are getting third doses rather soon. Remember it is thought you need about 6 months after the second dose to be really effective. It is being rolled out in Isreal because they were vaccinated early. Good thing too because Phizer, by reducing 22% per 30 days, overall it was only about 40% effective in Isreal.

Thanks
Bill

My second dose was in March; 6 months ago.

 

[bhobba]

My second dose was in March; 6 months ago.

I figured that was the case. People on this site would have embraced vaccines ASAP. Australia was the late kid off the block. Still, it would be getting close to 6 months for some early adopters even here. Mine will be due in February sometime. We are getting high vaccine uptake rates in NSW - heading towards 80% first dose - 40% second dose. Hopefully, well over 80% double doses in mid-November. Just saw a news segment about a town of a few thousand in Victoria with over 99% one dose - 75% two doses. If Aus, after a slow start, can get 90% two doses (80% hoped for by mid-November - we are really accelerating), then the same for 3 doses, we will be looking good. Fingers crossed.

Thanks
Bill

 

[hutchphd]

Breakthrough infections are pretty rare compared to unvaccinated infections based on all the publications I have read.

Breakthrough infections may not be that rare. Estimates of protection against breakthrough infections range from about 50% to 80%,

My personal experience would indicate the second (@atyy) is the truth about Delta. My own close pod of 15 folks (all mRNA vaccinated) had a single influx that spread to 8 people (tested) with a median incubation of 4 days. Nothing worse than moderate flu symptoms.

 

[fresh_42]

Here are some interesting statistical numbers (currently in my local news ticker).

There are 292 cases (per week per 100,000 people) among unvaccinated (or unknown status or only one dose), and 13.7 among fully (= twice) vaccinated (1:21).

 

[Grasshopper]

My personal experience would indicate the second (@atyy) is the truth about Delta. My own close pod of 15 folks (all mRNA vaccinated) had a single influx that spread to 8 people (tested) with a median incubation of 4 days. Nothing worse than moderate flu symptoms.

My guess is that would have been 14-15 had everyone been unvaccinated.

 

[hutchphd]

The salient point for me is that probably all of those who were symptomatic were shedding virus for a few days even though vaccinated. We weren't at some big party...each visited a few others once casually mostly out of doors. Also it is clear there was only one "patient zero" in the group.
I'm not sure the infection rate would be that much different...but the outcomes would have been!
GET VACCINATED.

 

[Stephenk53]

My vaccine was months ago, I got the Johnson and Johnson (only one I could get at the time unless I wanted to drive for two hours). I had to work that day and the following day, the first day I also had to bring in a large delivery to my small convenience store on my own since it is a small store (I was a cashier). I was extremely sore and tired, and I felt very hot. I did have trouble working due to soreness and being tired leading to me having to cut some corners while working but nothing crazy. My arm also hurt a lot.

 

[Grasshopper]

The salient point for me is that probably all of those who were symptomatic were shedding virus for a few days even though vaccinated. We weren't at some big party...each visited a few others once casually mostly out of doors. Also it is clear there was only one "patient zero" in the group.
I'm not sure the infection rate would be that much different...but the outcomes would have been!
GET VACCINATED.

There’s no way I can remember the study, but I read one that said that while peak viral load was the same for breakthrough cases as it was for unvaccinated, the viral load in vaccinated patients decreased much faster — which indicates they would spread it less over similar time windows.

 

[hutchphd]

That would be consistent with what I experienced. All of the transmission within my group was (in retrospect) from individuals in the two days before they were symptomatic...everybody went to hard quarantine when they became symptomatic so it is hard to tell.

 

[Laroxe]

There’s no way I can remember the study, but I read one that said that while peak viral load was the same for breakthrough cases as it was for unvaccinated, the viral load in vaccinated patients decreased much faster — which indicates they would spread it less over similar time windows.

The problem with the studies suggesting that vaccinated and unvaccinated shed virus at the same rate is in the use of PCR as the measure. PCR measures viral DNA rather than virions capable of causing infection, they may in fact simply be measuring DNA from virus's that have already been inactivated by antibodies.

Really its difficult to know how important this is, early in the pandemic, it was realized that this virus did not spread in a simple person to person way, individual differences in people infected seem to play a much bigger role. Rather than seeing the disease sweep across countries in waves, what we see are clusters of infections occurring across a wide area, these clusters often being associated with events that cause people to gather together. In these situations, it seems that the majority of infections can be traced back to one or a very few individuals. The majority of those infected, don't infect anyone, it seems that 80% of all infections are caused by 10 - 20% of infected individuals. This pattern of spread is called overdispersion, but I don't know if It's still the pattern with the delta variant. Most of the real world studies on transmission have occurred over a period in which vaccination was introduced, usually to specific high risks groups first, these are in fact the very groups that are experiencing significant falls in their antibody levels, but this again isn't really representative.

I think its fairly clear that vaccination does affect the likelihood of infection, but this will be a time critical effect, in Israel they found that people vaccinated in January had a 2.26 times greater risk for a breakthrough infection in July compared to those vaccinated in April. In mid-August over 500 people had been hospitalised with severe disease, of these 59% were fully vaccinated, this sounds worrying until you consider that around 80% of the population is vaccinated. Close to 90% of the vaccinated in hospital were over 60 years of age, while the age range of the unvaccinated was much more widely spread.

There is good evidence that vaccination does reduce the risk of infection and the risk of early infection becoming symptomatic, but this is strongly dependent on the time since vaccination and the effect is short-lived. However, the reduced risk of serious disease and death remains significant over a prolonged period of time.

My own view is that for the people at highest risk a booster dose of vaccine might provide a useful immediate risk reduction, there are indications that this should be offered after at least 6 months after the 2nd dose as this causes the greatest antibody response. It's also suggested that there may be advantages in using a vaccine produced using a different technology, which might broaden the range of antibodies. As vaccination does significantly reduce the severity of an infection, the advantages of a booster dose for most people is debatable. Even at a self-serving level, the advantages of improving global control may ultimately be greater than using the available vaccine for booster doses in which the effects will be minimal and short-lived.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I had my 2nd dose of Pfizer yesterday. Immediately after the injection I felt nauseous, but I've put that down to psychologically induced than anything else. I felt better 20 mins later. Right now all I have is a sore arm where the site is, but the nurse warned me of fever, body chills and headache after receiving a 2nd dose and that Panadol would help. Luckily I have some para+codeine prescribed so I can use that if anything pops up.

 

[Grasshopper]

I had my 2nd dose of Pfizer yesterday. Immediately after the injection I felt nauseous, but I've put that down to psychologically induced than anything else. I felt better 20 mins later. Right now all I have is a sore arm where the site is, but the nurse warned me of fever, body chills and headache after receiving a 2nd dose and that Panadol would help. Luckily I have some para+codeine prescribed so I can use that if anything pops up.

I was told by the nurse if you’re going to have a dangerous reaction, it’s most likely after. Maybe stay vigilant.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed temporarily for Moderation...

 

[berkeman]

After some cleanup of misinformation and the replies, the thread is reopened.

 

[artis]

@Grasshopper The way I understand it is that if one will have an allergic reaction like an anaphylactic shock then that will happen no later than 30 mins after injection with all of the cases I have read about happening within 10-20 minutes after injection. As for me I had a real infection of Covid this spring, a rather serious one, double sided viral pneumonia. Easily the hardest health problem I have ever had, I am normally healthy and don't ever get sick much.
Possibly lack of sleep and stress recently before the infection contributed to my state.
So now about 6 months after I got my first and only Pfizer shot, accoridng to latest laws and medical research 1 shot is enough on average for someone like me with high antibody levels and existing immunity.
So even though I knew I'm fine immunity wise I went and got the shot. This is about the evening of the 2nd day after the shot. I feel a little tired, higher heart rate while doing physical activity. Head is a little dull and harder to concentrate. No fever no chills.
Appetite almost as usual , no differences. Sore arm but is already fading away.
Pretty much the same for another person that I know that got the shot few days before me (also Pfizer) and almost the same for yet another man my age who also got the Pfizer shot few days before.What is interesting and what I want to note here which might get some answers if not now then later is that some of the specific feelings that I have now after the vaccine are literally the same as the ones I got while infected with the real virus. Sure with the real virus came tons of other stuff like cough etc but I'm thinking more specifically the central nervous system effects.
The clarity of thoughts and heart rate and overall vegetative feeling is very similar, I wonder could the spike protein itself be responsible for some of the Covid symptoms and how it interacts with our body?I have had some other vaccines before like tick encephalitis one , and I was tired but that felt differently, this feels like it's a CNS state more than a physical one.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I received my second dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine back in the end of June (received my first dose back at the end of April). I had no reaction whatsoever to my first dose (apart from a slight soreness in my arm, which lasted only for a day).

After my 2nd dose, I developed a mild headache a few hours after vaccination, which cleared up again after about an hour, and had a slightly sore arm (similar to when I get the flu vaccine and when I work out my arms intensely at the gym), which lasted for 2 days. No other reactions.

My parents received their 2nd dose around the same time I did, and they had no reaction. My sister received her 2nd dose shortly after I did, and she had similar reactions to mine.

 

[hutchphd]

Looks like myocarditis may be due to inadvertent IV injection (perhaps we should aspirate before plunging) :
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

 

[Grasshopper]

Looks like myocarditis may be due to inadvertent IV injection (perhaps we should aspirate before plunging) :
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

Kind of makes you wonder why this isn’t being done already given it’s supposed to be intramuscular. Is it particularly time consuming? I wouldn’t know.

EDIT — upon reading more, it seems the concern isn’t enough to make it a widely practiced part of IM injection.

 

[artis]

I hope someone more knowledgeable will comment on this research but going through it I felt a bit uneasy.

It also seems that even without Intravenous injection some of the mRNA does get into the bloodstream in normal Intramuscular injection. Probably more or less depending on the individual.
It says in the research

At 7 dpi, the heart of mice in the IV group showed persistent changes of myopericarditis (https://www.physicsforums.com/javascript%3A;), whereas the IM group only showed vascular congestion, myocardial edema, and occasional foci of cardiomyocyte degeneration

I suppose this means even the mice injected IM had some minor effects on the heart.

 

[artis]

Now as I am writing this I understand I will probably not gather much sympathy but I want to be honest so I will put it down.
I have long known that I have a very sensitive CNS, I don't usually react badly to most drugs but I am sensitive to certain substances that interact strongly with CNS, even a strong morning coffee can make me extra jumpy, my heart rate goes up and my blood pressure increases. Back when I was smoking I could never smoke together with even a light coffee , sometimes my heart just started to run like crazy.
Now long story short after Covid I had almost 2 months of very slow recovery, after the physical weakness was past ina few weeks, a much longer mental weakness and sensitivity stayed. I thought it's an effect of the double sided viral pneumonia I had but now I am almost certain the neurological effects are mostly due to the spike protein. This ofcourse is not a scientific admission but now it's day 6 after my 1st and only Pfizer shot. In total I got the shot 6 months after Covid.
I have almost the exact same neurological symptoms as when I had Covid without the fever and cough and physical damage of course.
In short, a dizzy head that sometimes borders on straight out drunk, feelings of strain in body parts from time to time, sudden onset of heat and sometimes cold, increased heart rate at idle or before sleep, insomnia, etc.
I had the same effects after Covid only then they were larger.

I also read very similar stories from others affected in the same way.
I also know this is not just a random reaction from vaccines in general as I have had them before and the reactions were different.
A woman that I know well also had the exact same neurological effects as me. She also had Covid at the same time I did.

Not sure whether there are any studies on how the spike protein affects certain body organs and systems but from what I know now I am pretty certain it can make a rather nasty CNS reaction in individuals that have a sensitive CNS or some background problems in that area.
In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

I know personally local people (mostly older) who have paid very rare visits to a doctor if any and have had some minor or unknown preexisting conditions then they just went for the shot like it's a shot of vodka. Some of them got serious problems afterwards , one lady ended up in hospital.
For anyone reading this I just want to emphasize that a vaccine is a serious deal and should be taken seriously and it can have side effects not all of them written down.
I will write down how the effects have gone after some time in case anyone is interested

 

[hutchphd]

Now as I am writing this I understand I will probably not gather much sympathy but I want to be honest so I will put it down.

"Ya pays your money and you takes your chances"
I had Guillian-Barre five years ago...couldn't walk or see straight. Not fun. Nevertheless I got the first available Moderna last February. Had modest reaction. Haven't got COVID. Feel pretty damned good for a 69 year old.
I think your assessment of relevant risks is very much off the mark (and pointedly lacking any consideration of societal obligations).

 

[fresh_42]

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

I know personally local people (mostly older) who have paid very rare visits to a doctor if any and have had some minor or unknown preexisting conditions then they just went for the shot like it's a shot of vodka. Some of them got serious problems afterwards , one lady ended up in hospital.
For anyone reading this I just want to emphasize that a vaccine is a serious deal and should be taken seriously and it can have side effects not all of them written down.

This is pure nonsense: the comparison is ridiculous, the hidden assumptions are offensive, and the hidden conclusion is dangerous.

The only valid part of it is, that we shortened the usual 10 years of excessive studies because we are in a state of emergency. And you didn't mention even that. The vaccines weren't produced in some countries, the deal wasn't made in a grocery store, in fact, it was cooperation, not a deal, the vaccine wasn't delivered untested or without studies, which is why it took about half a year before market introduction.

Please stop that kind of propaganda. It is very, very close to misinformation. And it is a slap in the face of all people on this globe who haven't the luxury to get vaccinated at all!

I will write down how the effects have gone after some time in case anyone is interested

Please don't. I know someone, who knows someone, who has heard ... is not an acceptable basis for a scientific forum.

 

[artis]

I feel your reaction @fresh_42 is far more in line with religious thinking than whatever I wrote down, did you even read what I said?
I never made a point about how the vaccines were made all I said is that they can have adverse side effects that can come as a surprise for some and that people who take the vaccine would do better if they did that in a clinic or under supervision because (not sure how about US) but where I live people can also get it in food stores.

Now I feel bad that this all has gotten to a religious state where talking pure medicine is now a crime but the people I was referring to including myself are not someone told someone, I know those people personally and I feel insulted that you hold me to such a low standard as some internet troll.

I never said I encourage to not take a vaccine , I said one should talk to a doctor and know one's health condition as a good advice.
But for God's sake if this brings so much emotion to you then please I will apologize even if for no reason

This thread is named "what to expect after a vaccine" I said what I got and what my mom got and some other folks, now I can't show you scientific proof and no one quite frankly can, unless the defects are very serious it is next to impossible to prove a link between vaccine and those effects just like it is impossible to prove a clear link between non life threatening exposure to radiation and cancer in many cases, and I know you know that.
I listened to a local tv show where one of the top cardiologists in my country stated that even in the rare cases were relatives have reported that the person who died got a shot in the last month before death it is very hard to prove that the death (trombosis) was vaccine induced only.
So are will you require scientific proof for all the other who posted here or just me because you disliked my side effects ?

 

[fresh_42]

I feel your reaction @fresh_42 is far more in line with religious thinking than whatever I wrote down, did you even read what I said?

Did you read what you wrote?

I feel insulted that you hold me to such a low standard as some internet troll.

Well, ...

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries.

I analyzed what you wrote linguistically and I can prove my claims. But this would be off-topic. The alternative to my response would have been to delete your post as misinformation, at least for the lack of references.

 

[artis]

@fresh_42 I edited my last post to reflect more overall on this thread as such and the way I expressed what I observed , anyway nothing of what you or I say will minimize my side effects so I might as well just leave this to rest and sit out and wait for them to end, hopefully others don't experience them longer.

The alternative to my response would have been to delete your post as misinformation, at least for the lack of references.

Just to say this one more time so that we are all on the same page , I think it is impossible to ask for scientific reference in a thread about vaccine side effects as side effects are always personal and unless someone is being medically analyzed under supervision and monitored it would be impossible not just for me but for anyone participating here to prove their symptoms.
I guess in a time of much division we still need some faith in one another

 

[russ_watters]

I'll be a little more gentle:

In general I think it has been a very stupid idea to make vaccinations in some countries and areas a sort of deal that you do in the local supermarket on your way to buy groceries. Yes for most it goes without much problems but there are risks of serious adverse effects I personally think a vaccination is something you should talk before you do it with your doctor and if you are not sure make some tests to see the shape your body and immune system is in.

This is a really bad take. The reason why there are vaccine clinics basically everywhere people can think of where they might attract a lot of people is for accessibility, which is critical for fighting this pandemic.

The vaccinators ask basic screening and eligibility questions, but beyond that people always have a personal duty/responsibility to know their own risk factors, and having the vaccine accessible doesn't transfer that responsibility to the person giving it any more than the person selling you the cheeseburger bears responsibility for your heart disease. For this vaccine the problem is far on the opposite end of the spectrum, that people are hyper-aware to the point of over-stating the risks.

Your take would effectively require vaccines to only be given in doctors' offices following a checkup appointment with a doctor (and tests?). Such a requirement would have made efficient distribution of the vaccine impossible.

 

[artis]

Your take would effectively require vaccines to only be given in doctors' offices following a checkup appointment with a doctor (and tests?). Such a requirement would have made efficient distribution of the vaccine impossible.

Yes you are right that would seriously slow down this thing, in a time of choosing the lesser evil it's not on the menu and I understand why.
And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible I mean this vaccine question is now so politicized that quite frankly it's becoming impossible to talk it clearly. Both sides are to blame both those that say the shots contain graphene and are made for public sterilization aka crackpots as well as those that deny any possibility that a vaccine can cause any side reaction including in rare cases death.

 

[russ_watters]

And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible...

Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm. Because of that, it triggers the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" rule, and not to put too fine a point on it, but, yep, what you are saying makes you sound like an anti-vaxer and that's why the reaction was so aggressive.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes you are right that would seriously slow down this thing, in a time of choosing the lesser evil it's not on the menu and I understand why.
And even for me where I did many tests both blood and otherwise I still am experiencing unwanted symptoms.

But you guys kind of shocked me with such a "high fever" reaction truth be told, asking for scientific references for personal symptoms and calling it propaganda and irresponsible I mean this vaccine question is now so politicized that quite frankly it's becoming impossible to talk it clearly. Both sides are to blame both those that say the shots contain graphene and are made for public sterilization aka crackpots as well as those that deny any possibility that a vaccine can cause any side reaction including in rare cases death.

I felt ill after my first jab, for about 48 hours then it subsided. It was a bit like but not as bad as flu. AZ. Every one I knew had similar.
It was explained to me before my injection that I could expect symptoms and that there was a 1/100,000 chance of something more serious like a clot ( not necessarily resulting in death)They in turn asked me about allergies and anything underlying.
It is difficult to put an exact number on this but if you look on cases verses death in the UK we are at about 2%. It could be a lot less than that say 1/200? As not all cases have been picked up. It cannot be any less than 1/500 as 0.2% of the entire UK population have already died from COVID and no one is suggesting all 66M of us have had it. This is still a long long way from 1/100,000 so suffice to say I like my Vaccine odds verses the COVID odds. This is without the consideration of a hospital visit or long COVID19.
Hopefully your symptoms will subside.

 

[artis]

Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well.
My Covid was worse by any measure. As far as I am now (if the symptoms will not get worse) I can say that vaccine has had minor symptoms compared to those I battled after a double sided viral pneumonia. All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc) Because I had the exact same ones after Covid also together with the rest of the bunch. But I have done some thinking and I believe I can single out the ones that are the same both from real infection and vaccine.
As for the physical symptoms like fever which is rather common I had none, no temperature, no fever no real chills.
I perfectly get your point @pinball1970 the odds especially for older people are way in favor of vaccine.

Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm. Because of that, it triggers the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" rule, and not to put too fine a point on it, but, yep, what you are saying makes you sound like an anti-vaxer and that's why the reaction was so aggressive.

Listen russ I have always liked your style here and you have been an overall nice forum comrade but in this case I do feel both you and @fresh_42 just got mad for no reason. I really didn't push anti-vax ideas, never have, and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US.
Also my idea that people should be more careful towards their health and know their condition before going taking drugs is I believe a well based and logical one. I mean most drugs are prescription exactly for that reason.
I personally think ,and I hope I am still allowed to express my own opinion, that many science oriented folks have gotten bit emotional over this because on one side we have a health problem- pandemic on the other side we have some percentage of vaxxed folks experiencing bad side effects and no option here is really good. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser evil.
But just as we shouldn't be anti-vaxxers we also shouldn't be "anti-side effecters"
Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.PS. I also would say to my own alibi that I am a trustworthy person and I keep my health checked regularly and read medical papers etc. I am not the type of person to just feel a headache and blame the weather.

 

[hutchphd]

 

[russ_watters]

Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well...

All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc)...

[separate post] This thread is named "what to expect after a vaccine"...

..and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US...

Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.

You have a point about the thread itself, and we're discussing in the moderator's forum if we should shut it down. It is indeed inviting personal anecdotes, and, well, they can sometimes be problematic.

I don't think you're lying, but what I'm hearing (most of what you were talking about in post #162) is that you believe you have an undiagnosed central nervous system illness that's pretty severe yet not severe enough for you to get diagnosed, and you think it's being triggered by a vaccine reaction which is not, as far as I know, documented elsewhere, and you think you know the mechanism. And others have experienced what you believe is the same issue...because again, it's common. And common and serious enough that we should formalize a medical screening process prior to vaccination. That's an awful lot of speculation (and a massive public policy change) about something that if real and common should be documented in scientific study/literature already. No, I don't think you're lying, but I do think that you are letting your imagination run a bit.

 

[russ_watters]

Based on moderator discussion we're going to lock this thread. It was something of a problematic double-edged sword from the beginning. Thanks everyone for contributing.