Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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In summary: I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help. I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There
  • #351
turbo-1 said:
Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?

Yes, but turbo... this man is not sane. Do we really want the basis for a reform in discourse to be based on that? I think the reaction is more PC than a genuine attempt to reconcile, and we don't need any more of that. Congress is united in decrying what they've been doing shamelessly the day before? Oh please. If we want lasting change, this can be part of that catalyst, but using this as a backstop is just more of the same ideological nonsense.

That said, it's already started, with the quote of Rep. Giffords expressing her concern over the Palin Map. I have to ask why at this point, now that we KNOW he had hostile contact with the congresswomen long before that map existed?!

If there is ANY cause to be championed here, and I don't think that there is, it's to revitalize the USA's pathetic mental health system. I'm yet to see THAT argument made, although his state of mind is possibly one of the only things we KNOW about Loughner.

Evo: It's AZ, he's already dead unless he is schizophrenic, and then it's life in an AZ mental wing of a prison in all likelihood... He's done. I wouldn't want to be the attorney trying to sway a jury of Arizonan peers that this man didn't know right from wrong. We put DAHMER in prison... need I say more? This country is so hysterical about the notion of a crime rate that's rising, while in reality it's doing the opposite. When you start to talk about someone being mentally ill, you just get instant slippery slope arguments that somehow we're going to let the criminals run amok.

There's no NEW discourse here... this is just the usual fluctuation in our culture, and to pretend otherwise is to delude ourselves. Reading this thread (my contributions included) should make that abundantly clear.
 
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  • #352
Evo said:
WhoWee is right, let's get off the religious tangent please.

Seconded. Whatever arguments along those lines are neither here nor there.
 
  • #353
Has anyone else here seen the newest photo of the shooter on CNN? That's scary!
 
  • #354
turbo-1 said:
Mark Brooks is currently on PBS claiming that Sarah Palin, right-wing radio and Fox news have NO responsibility for the assassination attempt. That's disingenuous, at best, IMO. How can we define political civility in this atmosphere?

Can't we dial back the hate a bit?

Yes, Turbo, we can. Start by dialing back your insinuations involving Palin.

I don't like her, either, but I'll sit down with her at a salmon and egg breakfast any day. I might learn something! She might learn something, too.
 
  • #355
When these types of events happen, I don't recall and I'm not aware of one conservative, one Republican, one conservative blogger making a mad dash to a microphone, a camera or a computer to blame a Democrat or liberals for what happened in Arizona on Saturday.

But a mad path was beaten. Now, don't kid yourself. What this is all about is shutting down any and all political opposition and eventually criminalizing it, criminalizing policy differences, at least when they differ from the Democrat Party agenda.
- RUSH LIMBAUGH
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/rhetoric_01-10.html#transcript
emphasis mine

It sounds like Rush is feeling a little uncomfortable. Palin hasn't made any public statements beyond a confused tweet.

"I hate violence. I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence."

She seems to think fingers are pointing randomly. While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person [in addition to a few others].

War?
 
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  • #356
Ivan Seeking said:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/rhetoric_01-10.html#transcript
emphasis mine

It sounds like Rush is feeling a little uncomfortable. Palin hasn't made any public statements beyond a confused tweet.



She seems to think fingers are pointing randomly. While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person [in addition to a few others].

War?

I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?
 
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  • #357
WhoWee said:
I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?

Probably the Secret Service took over? Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.
 
  • #358
lisab said:
Probably the Secret Service took over? Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.

You could be correct? I just recall the President noting that the FBI Director was on his way to the area.
 
  • #360
Lacy33 said:
Has anyone else here seen the newest photo of the shooter on CNN? That's scary!

ja, it's in the link i just posted. crazy with a capital c in an odd font.
 
  • #361
Proton Soup said:
ja, it's in the link i just posted. crazy with a capital c in an odd font.

Yeah, it's already been made clear that this man is not sane... I think the picture drives it home. Arildno (and all): http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1

I'm no fan of angels, but these I'll root for. Silently protecting... that sounds about right.Ivan: I want to agree with you, and I want to dig into the politics, but unless this man has fooled virtually everyone for many years, he's been progressively more aggressive, and delusional. People often think, "of course, crazy means violent..."... no. Crazy (I use this term loosely) is crazy, but undiagnosed/untreated crazy... THAT often does end in violence. I should add, that violence is usually random and hysterical, or self-inflicted... if as I suspect Loughner is Schizophrenic or DD:NOS.

In the words of his teacher, "[Loughner] scared the hell out of me." His friends seemed unsurprised at these events, but his parents by all accounts are shocked and devastated *nod to arildno*. A neighbor spoke to CNN and described the father as unable to put together 3 words without breaking down into tears, and the mother is even worse. To me, that seems to indicate either a long struggle, or in this case perhaps, not fully realizing just how ill their child was... after all, he'd only moved home recently.

If anyone can explain to me why the discussion is political instead of focusing on how someone with YEARS of intervention by police, even after his expulsion from college under the order that he receive a psych evaluation before attempting to return... well, I'd be impressed. In subsequent run-ins with the police, at no point does it seem that anyone questioned his sanity; clearly the guy was nuts. It also seems clear that nobody sought to have him held for 72 hours, or so much as an evaluation with a court-appointed psychologist.

People always talk about, "what failed?" in these situations... we don't know exactly how, but we know what failed was: his brain and mind. If there were systemic failures, his parents aren't it... he's 22... the college protected their campus and told him to get help! The police probably didn't have time to get a bead on just what they were dealing with, AND convince brass or a judge.

This is absolutely the kind of person who, if he couldn't get a gun, would use ANYTHING. A bomb, a knife... it doesn't matter anymore. If there's a gun-control issue here, it would just be a renewal of the assault-weapons ban, which had it been renewed could have made one huge difference:

33 round magazines are VERBOTEN under that law, and what was the point of failure for this mass attack?... the magazine, and the need to reload. I'd love to hear why joe-citizen could possibly need that.

I'd also love to know why such a crazy bastard, with a police record, a drug record with the military, and two failed school experiences including 'get help' on that last... BOUGHT A GUN and a multiple extended magazines. He was refused ammo at one store, but not the gun. I don't think that tragedy would be averted that way... it's too easy to find a gun, but could this lunatic have found one through illegal channels? If he did, it have been another point of weakness where he could have been arrested.

My point isn't that gun control is the needed debate, but we should still ask ourselves how on Earth 'Shaved-Head McManson' was able to walk up to a counter, and buy a glock.
 
  • #362
Ivan Seeking said:
While perhaps unjustified, the fingers are all pointing at the same person
With your help.
[in addition to a few others].
Like this guy maybe
‘We’re going to punish our enemies, and we’re going to reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us’
 
  • #363
Among the guy's favorite books is The Communist Manifesto and he was a registered Independent. What is ironic is that after the Fort Hood shooting, the immediate reaction of the media was to say that we cannot let this one lunatic be seen as a representative of all Muslims (which I agreed with wholeheartedly).

But with this guy, the immediate reaction was to connect him with the Right (Sarah Palin, Fox News, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Tea Party, etc...), Heaven-forbid if he'd been a Tea Party attendant, it would be "no question" then that the whole movement is nuts.

Of course the reality is he was just a pure nut with no political affiliation who seems to think that the government is brainwashing us through grammar.
 
  • #364
I knew I never liked this guy:

mr-clean.jpg
 
  • #365
I just saw a report from the scene of the shooting. The reporter indicated there are several cameras throughout the plaza.
 
  • #366
The report from the shooting site also showed the path of the shooter. It started at a table in front of the Safeway (where Rep Giffords was meeting people) and continued along the walk way to drug store Walgreens maybe?). The distance appeared to be about 40 to 50 yards. Previously, I thought he did all of the shooting in a single location, but apparently he just shot everyone that he passed on his way. The reporter also indicated one of the people that tackled him was walking out of the drug store.
 
  • #367
mheslep said:
You mean David Brooks, or Mark Shields?

How can you post name calling for years in this forum and make that statement? Edit: I see MugA got there first.
It's David Brooks. Sorry
 
  • #368
I believe that, if we want to break things down, Jon Stewart (and/or writers) had the best thing I've heard on the subject.

Here is a portion after he decries the entire concept that there's some fault or political hay to be made, except by the truly vile.

The Daily Show said:
Monday, January 10, 2011

“It would be really nice if the ramblings of crazy people didn’t in any way resemble how we actually talk to each other on TV. Let’s at least make troubled individuals easier to spot.

And, you know, again, to see good people like this hurt, it is so grievous, and it causes me such sadness. But again, I refuse to give into that feeling of despair. There is light in this situation. I urge everyone: read up about those who were hurt and / or killed in this shooting. You will be comforted by how much anonymous goodness there really is in this world. You read about these people, and you realize that people that you don’t even know, that you never even met, are leading lives of real dignity and goodness. And you hear about crazy, but it’s rarer than you think. And I think you’ll find yourself even more impressed with Congresswoman Giffords, and amazed at how much living some of the deceased packed into lives that were cut way too short.

If there is any solace in this, I think it’s that for all the hyperbole and the vitriol that’s become a part of the political process, when the reality of that rhetoric, when actions match the disturbing nature of words, we haven’t lost our capacity to be horrified.

…Someone or something will shatter our world again. And wouldn’t it be a shame if we didn’t take this opportunity, and the loss of these incredible people, and the pain that their loved ones are going through right now: wouldn’t it be a shame if we didn’t take that moment to make sure that the world that we are creating now, that will ultimately be shattered again by a moment of lunacy — wouldn’t it be a shame if that world wasn’t better than the one we previously lost?”
JON STEWART, addressing the shootings in Tucson, on The Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction

If only we could all be as mature as a bunch of comedians... if only our comedians weren't more useful for the national dialogue than 6 separate news networks we all know are pathetic.
 
  • #369
WhoWee said:
I was more than a little surprised to see the sheriff on so many channels - saying the same thing over and over. On the other hand, the FBI is apparently doing his job - he might need something to make him look busy?

He was on so many channels because they were all here in Tucson asking for interviews. Other than that he only had two press conferences in which his statements are being played over and over.

He is just telling it like it is as he sees it and feels it from the heart. Bear in mind he was a personal friend of Judge Roll and had known Giffords since she was a little girl riding horseback beside of him in local parades.

I have personally seen the growing tensions as the right wing nuts arm themselves to the hilt and talk of a second revolution. The extreme right wing government of Arizona has left us with virtually no gun laws or restrictions. Anyone can carry concealed without a background check or safety training.
 
  • #370
Edward... He passed the "instant federal background firearms" check, not just the AZ regs.
 
  • #371
And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.
 
  • #372
edward said:
He was on so many channels because they were all here in Tucson asking for interviews. Other than that he only had two press conferences in which his statements are being played over and over.

He is just telling it like it is as he sees it and feels it from the heart. Bear in mind he was a personal friend of Judge Roll and had known Giffords since she was a little girl riding horseback beside of him in local parades.

I have personally seen the growing tensions as the right wing nuts arm themselves to the hilt and talk of a second revolution. The extreme right wing government of Arizona has left us with virtually no gun laws or restrictions. Anyone can carry concealed without a background check or safety training.

In your opinion, is the problem of Mexican drug gangs (and their violence) a problem in your community - is it the sheriff's top priority? Also, please see my post above regarding the report from the scene - to clarify anything I (or the reporter) might have misinterpretted.
 
  • #373
BTW, Giffords' doctor has said her survival is 100% assured, whatever that means. I hope her recovery is sufficient to allow her to enjoy the rest of her life.
 
  • #374
turbo-1 said:
And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.

Turbo, please support your post. Where is the evidence of the direct connection?

Read Evo's earlier post - this guy was a 9/11 conspiracy nut. If you need to blame someone - pick someone with a direct link. Start with the producer of the 9/11 film.

You called for everyone to stop the hate posts - but you continue to lead the way in the behavior?
 
  • #375
turbo-1 said:
And my point was that the killer planned his attack. He was not just an insane man who inexplicably snapped. He planned he and executed his plan.

It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).

BTW, Roger Ailes has instructed the FOX staff to tone down the nastiness and bombast. Given the fact that bombast gets ratings, we'll see how long that lasts.

Premeditation rules out all but the most inspired insanity plea in COURT... it doesn't mean that he isn't insane. There is a huge range from someone who is a bit anxious, to someone who's completely divorced from reality (acute psychosis).

Remember legal insantity in the US essentially means that you can't have been aware that you were planning or committing a crime. Of all the people in the world who are mentally ill, even profoundly so, that is a VERY small minority.

Other information includes friends, teachers and others describing his oddities in more detail. For example, in a group hearing a sad story, he'd laugh. (example of one of his friends) In class he asked questions utterly unrelated to the class and spent time, "Mumbling to himself." according to a classmate (older than I am!) on CNN.

THIS. GUY. IS. INSANE. Whatever the cause, be it drugs or schizophrenia, or just plain 'we don't know, but it's CRAZY"... he is insane. It's clear that Giffords became a target of his ire, but not for reasons that any rational person would accept.

Two days ago, what you mentioned would be something I'd consider... now, I doubt it mattered at all. Only a few things could have changed this: Good security, Don't sell guns to lunatics, and as Jon Stewart said, maybe we need the overall background noise to die down so that we can isolate those are crazy as is... not for marketing purposes.
 
  • #376
turbo-1 said:
BTW, Giffords' doctor has said her survival is 100% assured, whatever that means. I hope her recovery is sufficient to allow her to enjoy the rest of her life.

Survival, yes, assuming no sudden turn or infection, but RECOVERY?... nobody could possibly know yet, and are unlikely to know for weeks or moths. As for the full extent of any recovery, anyone who has experience with this kind of injury will tell you: It takes the rest of your life, and it's utterly unpredictable.
 
  • #377
nismaratwork said:
Survival, yes, assuming no sudden turn or infection, but RECOVERY?... nobody could possibly know yet, and are unlikely to know for weeks or moths. As for the full extent of any recovery, anyone who has experience with this kind of injury will tell you: It takes the rest of your life, and it's utterly unpredictable.

I just saw an analysis of her injury. The doctor indicated the bullet passed through first an area that controls speech, then an area that controls movement, and last an another area that effects speech.
 
  • #378
WhoWee said:
I just saw an analysis of her injury. The doctor indicated the bullet passed through first an area that controls speech, then an area that controls movement, and last an another area that effects speech.

I know this is going to sound odd to many here, but PHEW. I can't think of a better wound-track from a shot like the one she took. As I said earlier, she's incredibly lucky that she received amazing and heroic care at the scene and later, but also just LUCKY. I would add that, as I said earlier, while lucky to be alive, she's not as lucky as the other congresswomen who haven't been shot in the head.

Assuming (and I do based on what you and the doctor said) that the wound track is just that, her brain is likely to compensate given her relative youth. Even knowing the wound track... even if I were looking at the CATscan AND her opened brain... I wouldn't hazard a guess as to recovery time.

You really start to know how people are going to proceed only once they begin to... well... proceed. Thank you for the detailed information by the way.
 
  • #380
I just watched the news conference from some of the families... I may be done with this thread for a while, so if I'm in and out, it's not personal. At this point I think waiting, and reflecting on life in general feels about right to me.

Oh, and I have a lot of work.
 
  • #382
  • #383
turbo-1 said:
It's disingenuous to ignore Palin's rifle-scope graphics and pretend "Don't retreat. Reload." is just innocent fun. Giffords warned (with ample justification) that it was wrong to put rifle-sights on targeted Democrats (including her).
Sigh.
I have to tell you in the truly brutal way:
Just because Mrs. Giffords got a bullet through her head doesn't make her a..prophetess.

Most likely, she was simply wrong in her assertion.

That, of course, should note remove an iota of sympathy she deserves from us.
 
  • #384
I saw this interview yesterday.

Prof. Called 911 on Loughner after Class "Rant"
Says She Called Police in September after Tucson Shooting Suspect Raved about Constitution, Freedom of Speech

She explained, "I was collecting papers that were due at the beginning of class. A different student had realized he forgot his paper and asked if he could turn it in late, and I said he could, but it would be half-credit. Then Jared realized that he didn't have his assignment. He raised his hand, and asked if he could turn it in late. And I said, yes, but for half-credit. At that point, he was upset, he said, 'No, I want full credit.' And I said, 'No, it's half-credit, it's part of the policy, it's spelled out in the syllabus.'

"Students understand this," Scheidemantel said. "But he didn't seem to, and he pointed at the flag, and the Constitution up at the front of the room and said that I was taking away his freedom of speech, I was taking away his individual rights, that it was unconstitutional. He was saying that, you know, he's paying me, and therefore I'm taking away his freedom of speech if I don't give him full credit.
continued...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/10/earlyshow/main7230271.shtml
 
  • #385
Evo said:
I saw this interview yesterday.

continued...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/10/earlyshow/main7230271.shtml

I'm not clear on the timeline - this apparently happened before he ever purchased a gun?

I caught the end of an interview earlier (again only heard part) that inferred the sheriff's office (apparently they monitor gun purchases locally?) might have dropped the ball. I'll try to find something to clarify - again, I only heard part of the piece - label this IMO for now.
 

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